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Old 03-14-2009, 03:11 AM   #16
DeuceWallaces
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Default Re: Why do I always hear American Conservatives argue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PistolPete
NBC, CNN, ABC, MSNBC = All liberal

New York Times, New York Post, San Francisco Chronicle, L.A. Times, The Boston Globe and many more = All liberal

I don't see why it's that hard to understand

CNN is neutral, ABC and CBS have pretty much zero news input and no 24 hour cable show. The #1 news provider is annoyingly conservative. Talk radio is insanely conservative. Newspapers, they show up on both side. Television and radio news is overwhelmingly conservative, while print is up for debate.

I don't see why that's hard to understand.
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Old 03-14-2009, 03:14 AM   #17
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Default Re: Why do I always hear American Conservatives argue...

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Originally Posted by Fatal9
that universal health care means you won't be able to pick your own doctor or that doctors won't be able to make decisions?

I live in Canada and I've never had anyone tell me what doctor I have to choose? In fact I got an operation on my foot from a specific doctor that I picked.

And what's with Doctors not being able to make their own decisions? Isn't that's what is happening already in the US where Insurance companies call the final shots?

I always look at the American media and am shocked at how many lies get propagated by the media and political parties (mostly Republicans). Are Americans just that dumb and ignorant? Or do they know they are being lied to everyday?

When I was a teenager I remember we had neighbors across the street who were from England, and our parents were just discussing the difference in the healthcare systems, and he mentioned that he once had to wait like 6 months to get an operation he needed on his foot, because of all the hoops and red tape you have to go through when the government is runs the healthcare system. MAYBE its different in Canada, but I find it very hard to believe that you just picked a doctor of your choosing at random, showed up, got the diagnosis, and had the operation just like that without any waiting or clearance or approval and the government picked up the tab. That seems very unlikely.

In any event, I just became eligible for healthcare with my work a little while ago after being their for the requisite amount of time. Being a healthy 24 year old male, I picked a lighter plan, and now have 22 dollars a week deducted from my paycheck. I hardly even notice it. And now my ass is covered in the event I need healthcare. Doctors aren't free you know, as much as Deuceewallace thinks they are or should be. It can take 10 years of schooling and upwards of 100,000 dollars or more in tuition to become a doctor. If it wasnt a lucrative profession, nobody would make that kind of investment.

So you say, maybe its not a big deal for me to lose 22 dollars out of my paycheck per week cause i'm a young single guy in my 20's, but what about the guy trying to support a family on minimum wage, 22 dollars is pretty important. Ok, well there's a couple things wrong with that scenario. First, that guy probably got married at 18 and had kids by 20 (or perhaps before he was even maried). Well, guess what. That's not a wise decision, nor is it one anyone else made for him, nor should it be anyone else's problem. Also, if you are at the appropriate age of starting a family, and you're still making minimum wage or close to it, something is wrong. I'm sorry, but you just aren't trying. Even if you dont have much schooling, if you work hard at the same place for a period of years, there will be advancement opportunities. It's nobody else's fault if you don't take advantage. What about the mom who has 4 kids from different baby daddy's, she doesnt work she just collects child support. Is it our responsibility to pay her health insurance because 22 bucks a week would be a drain on her?

What you fail to realize when you say "oh, Canada has free healthcare. Ireland has it. Sweden has it! U.S. is such greedy bastards for not having it" really its you who is dumb and ignorant. What do you notice about those 3 countries? How bout their population COMBINED probably isnt even a quarter of ours. Their populations are much lower, and the cultures are much similar. It's easy for a small group of people with common ideals and similar incomes to chip in on something fairly. The U.S. is a massive melting pot with way more people, and much greater differences in prosperity, ideals, culture, etc. among its citizens. What you're asking for with free healthcare in the U.S. is for a small group of people to provide it for everyone, including the types of people who exemplify the examples I gave above. Like I said, all it takes to get coverage in the U.S. is to make wise decisions and make a little room in your budget. The whiney liberals who cry about healthcare always blame rich people, and never quesiton the decisions made by billy-bob-10-kids-at-25-years-old and chaniqua-uneducated-welfare-mom dont have coverage. It's the liberal code. "Always go after the big guy. The little guy can do NO wrong." It's what douchewallace lives by. Cry for the little guy, no matter how much at fault he is for his own situation. Always take from the rich and give to him. Rich are evil. Right doucheallwace?
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Old 03-14-2009, 03:14 AM   #18
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Default Re: Why do I always hear American Conservatives argue...

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Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
Huh? No one would be booted out of a hospital under the universal system. There would be no 'choice' as to who lives or dies because everyone would be treated. You throw around terms like 'big government' and other conservative talking points like you know something. In reality, you don't know a thing. You haven't lived and you haven't had to watch people die because they had no health insurance.

You are just a kid that wants to follow the ideology of the party that your parents chose for you. When you get a little world experience and understand the way that policies like universal health care actually works, beyond your talking points, I'll be more than happy to debate you on this subject. Until then, keep your immature opinions to yourself or, at the very least, don't direct them toward me.
haha I love how everytime I destroy someones liberal bull**** they just call me a kid who knows nothing rather then trying to explain why i'm wrong...

It's very cute misdirection... and i know why you do it because you can't argue it.. i'm right... liberals base there facts on what they feel and how it should be rather than reality.

and yeah the government damn near already chooses who lives or dies. my mom is a nurse at the er and before they give certain shots i think rabies is one... they have to call the state office and make sure it's ok to use on a per person case... Someones dying of rabies but yeah we gotta make phone calls and get it approved... and it will be so much worse..

it's sooo funny how you can be so brainwashed...

i mean honestly you really think that this HUGE government with all this POWER is going to do GOOD? so naive.... so naive.
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Old 03-14-2009, 03:16 AM   #19
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Default Re: Why do I always hear American Conservatives argue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeuceWallaces
CNN is neutral, ABC and CBS have pretty much zero news input and no 24 hour cable show. The #1 news provider is annoyingly conservative. Talk radio is insanely conservative. Newspapers, they show up on both side. Television and radio news is overwhelmingly conservative, while print is up for debate.

I don't see why that's hard to understand.
ahahaha CNN neutral. please just gtfo.. you know you are straight up lying when you say that... We don't have ANY neutral news station they are all injecting their opinions as facts and trying to push agendas every single one.
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Old 03-14-2009, 03:17 AM   #20
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Default Re: Why do I always hear American Conservatives argue...

You guys are idiots. Just because universal healthcare is offered to people who can't afford it doesn't mean people who can afford it can't get immediate treatment like normal.
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Old 03-14-2009, 03:18 AM   #21
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Default Re: Why do I always hear American Conservatives argue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by starface
When I was a teenager I remember we had neighbors across the street who were from England, and our parents were just discussing the difference in the healthcare systems, and he mentioned that he once had to wait like 6 months to get an operation he needed on his foot, because of all the hoops and red tape you have to go through when the government is runs the healthcare system. MAYBE its different in Canada, but I find it very hard to believe that you just picked a doctor of your choosing at random, showed up, got the diagnosis, and had the operation just like that without any waiting or clearance or approval and the government picked up the tab. That seems very unlikely.

In any event, I just became eligible for healthcare with my work a little while ago after being their for the requisite amount of time. Being a healthy 24 year old male, I picked a lighter plan, and now have 22 dollars a week deducted from my paycheck. I hardly even notice it. And now my ass is covered in the event I need healthcare. Doctors aren't free you know, as much as Deuceewallace thinks they are or should be. It can take 10 years of schooling and upwards of 100,000 dollars or more in tuition to become a doctor. If it wasnt a lucrative profession, nobody would make that kind of investment.

So you say, maybe its not a big deal for me to lose 22 dollars out of my paycheck per week cause i'm a young single guy in my 20's, but what about the guy trying to support a family on minimum wage, 22 dollars is pretty important. Ok, well there's a couple things wrong with that scenario. First, that guy probably got married at 18 and had kids by 20 (or perhaps before he was even maried). Well, guess what. That's not a wise decision, nor is it one anyone else made for him, nor should it be anyone else's problem. Also, if you are at the appropriate age of starting a family, and you're still making minimum wage or close to it, something is wrong. I'm sorry, but you just aren't trying. Even if you dont have much schooling, if you work hard at the same place for a period of years, there will be advancement opportunities. It's nobody else's fault if you don't take advantage. What about the mom who has 4 kids from different baby daddy's, she doesnt work she just collects child support. Is it our responsibility to pay her health insurance because 22 bucks a week would be a drain on her?

What you fail to realize when you say "oh, Canada has free healthcare. Ireland has it. Sweden has it! U.S. is such greedy bastards for not having it" really its you who is dumb and ignorant. What do you notice about those 3 countries? How bout their population COMBINED probably isnt even a quarter of ours. Their populations are much lower, and the cultures are much similar. It's easy for a small group of people with common ideals and similar incomes to chip in on something fairly. The U.S. is a massive melting pot with way more people, and much greater differences in prosperity, ideals, culture, etc. among its citizens. What you're asking for with free healthcare in the U.S. is for a small group of people to provide it for everyone, including the types of people who exemplify the examples I gave above. Like I said, all it takes to get coverage in the U.S. is to make wise decisions and make a little room in your budget. The whiney liberals who cry about healthcare always blame rich people, and never quesiton the decisions made by billy-bob-10-kids-at-25-years-old and chaniqua-uneducated-welfare-mom dont have coverage. It's the liberal code. "Always go after the big guy. The little guy can do NO wrong." It's what douchewallace lives by. Cry for the little guy, no matter how much at fault he is for his own situation. Always take from the rich and give to him. Rich are evil. Right doucheallwace?
thank god. i'm not the only sane person on this board.
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Old 03-14-2009, 03:18 AM   #22
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Default Re: Why do I always hear American Conservatives argue...

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Originally Posted by Cannonball
ahahaha CNN neutral. please just gtfo.. you know you are straight up lying when you say that... We don't have ANY neutral news station they are all injecting their opinions as facts and trying to push agendas every single one.

CNN is very neutral and have very few opinionated programs.
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Old 03-14-2009, 03:20 AM   #23
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Default Re: Why do I always hear American Conservatives argue...

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Originally Posted by DeuceWallaces
You guys are idiots. Just because universal healthcare is offered to people who can't afford it doesn't mean people who can afford it can't get immediate treatment like normal.
so I don't even get what I pay for

God why is everyone such a ***** these days... Jesus Christ... it's unbelievable

so I gotta pay for everyone else who won't work as hard as me but then since it sucks because the poor are going to be leeching the hell out of the system I have to pay for health insurance to...

that's what it's gonna come down to. paying more taxes and then health insurance on top of that WAHOOO
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Old 03-14-2009, 03:22 AM   #24
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Default Re: Why do I always hear American Conservatives argue...

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Originally Posted by Cannonball
HAHAHA you just made my argument...

1. Police=suck i'm sorry but they are lazy fat SOB's that abuse power like no other... Protect and serve MY ASS

2. Fire department= no comment. don't have any expiernce with real fire fighters all the fire fighters around here are volunteers.

3. Postal service=FAIL.... need I say more... i mean seriously UPS ftw

4. Public schools=yeah they sure are great aren't they...

5.Libraries- i bet an independent library would be a lot better... and the employees would actually be helpful. all the ones I go to they could care less... just like all government workers (not their fault) it's what government work does... just like it would do to health care...
So... You are in favor of...

1. Privatized police force... how would this even work? A community hires a corporation that offers protection and enforcement of the law? What if everyone does not agree on the same corporation and refuse to chip in... and others can't afford to chip in. Do they get protected? We would have f#cking Blackwater running around in every city in the country. It would be Armageddon. This is what you support?

2. The fire department is as important as the police department and it will always and should always be 'socialized.' No one should have to pay to have their house saved from a fire.

3. What about those that can't afford UPS? I think the US Postal Service is pretty damn efficient. They can get my letter from one side of the country to the other in a matter of days with nothing more than a stamp. I am perfectly happy with that. What if, under 'socialized' postal services only, a person has to send in a bill, for example, but can't afford UPS? I guess they are f#cked?

4. You would prefer NO public schools, so only those that could afford private schools or those that can attain vouchers get an education in this country? That is your stance?

5. A lot of poor people only have access to computers through the library. The over-riding theme in your arguments seem to be your absolute refusal to acknowledge those that are under-privileged and living in poverty.

Your argument is weak.
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Old 03-14-2009, 03:26 AM   #25
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Default Re: Why do I always hear American Conservatives argue...

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Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
...which is what we currently have and have always had. A society based purely upon capitalism would never work. Do individuals pay for the police? No... that is socialized. Do they pay for the fire department? Nope... socialized. Do they pay for the US Postal Service? Nope... socialized. Public schools? Nope... socialized. The library? Socialized.

Personally, I put just as much if not more importance on a team of guys helping to hose down a burning house as I do operating on a dying person. It seems that a lot of conservatives do not hold these same views.
I agree. I was just pointing out the flaws in the conservative agenda. They’re always talking about less government and deregulation, which I think is a very bad idea. The last time this country was as deregulated as they wish to have it, children were working 12 hours a day in factories, and people were grossly underpaid. Regulation is what stopped this. The regulations we have now keep people honest and prevent the turn to full capitalism, which imo is evil.

What freaks me out is a lot of the conservative base is poor people who’re getting their religion exploited. What the republicans want won’t help the poor man, yet a lot of blue collar voters follow their lies like it’s gospel. I saw this interesting HBO documentary on McCain’s supporters just yesterday and I was shocked at how poor some of them were. How could they vote against a policy that would help them and lower their taxes?

I don't really like the democrats much either, but they're clearly the lesser of two evils.

Last edited by Tainted Sword : 03-14-2009 at 03:32 AM.
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Old 03-14-2009, 03:30 AM   #26
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Default Re: Why do I always hear American Conservatives argue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by starface
First, that guy probably got married at 18 and had kids by 20 (or perhaps before he was even maried). Well, guess what. That's not a wise decision, nor is it one anyone else made for him, nor should it be anyone else's problem. Also, if you are at the appropriate age of starting a family, and you're still making minimum wage or close to it, something is wrong. I'm sorry, but you just aren't trying. Even if you dont have much schooling, if you work hard at the same place for a period of years, there will be advancement opportunities. It's nobody else's fault if you don't take advantage. What about the mom who has 4 kids from different baby daddy's, she doesnt work she just collects child support. Is it our responsibility to pay her health insurance because 22 bucks a week would be a drain on her?
This is really the difference between my thinking and your thinking. You believe that there are certain people that don't deserve treatment on potentially fatal diseases/conditions because, for whatever reason, they can't afford it. I believe that treating a serious injury or disease is as important as having police for everyone and schools for everyone.

For me, there aren't those who 'deserve' to be saved and those who do not based on economic status. I love capitalism in certain areas of our society. I just don't think that health care should be about making money and not saving lives.
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Old 03-14-2009, 03:35 AM   #27
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Default Re: Why do I always hear American Conservatives argue...

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Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
So... You are in favor of...

1. Privatized police force... how would this even work? A community hires a corporation that offers protection and enforcement of the law? What if everyone does not agree on the same corporation and refuse to chip in... and others can't afford to chip in. Do they get protected? We would have f#cking Blackwater running around in every city in the country. It would be Armageddon. This is what you support?


UH no... I don't think we have a better option as far as police forces.. I do wish that the gun laws weren't set up to prevent law abiding citizens like myself to live at a disadvantage but i'm off topic. this is only way to have a police force that i can think of... BUT there is a better option for medicine and we should stick with it...
2. The fire department is as important as the police department and it will always and should always be 'socialized.' No one should have to pay to have their house saved from a fire.
very liberal I don't know about you but I do pay taxes and I do pay to have my house saved... See this is a problem I see a lot of kids have I know.. they think that stuff they get from the government is free.. ahha where do you think that money comes from??? yeah you and I the TAX payer we DO pay for it.... ugh so frustrating.
3. What about those that can't afford UPS? I think the US Postal Service is pretty damn efficient. They can get my letter from one side of the country to the other in a matter of days with nothing more than a stamp. I am perfectly happy with that. What if, under 'socialized' postal services only, a person has to send in a bill, for example, but can't afford UPS? I guess they are f#cked?
Competition Free market=more jobs, better prices... this is simple... UPS employees work so much harder and do so much better at there job, because they have to work to keep it... just like it should be not this government suck a titty bull ****... plus a private biz creates money... The USPS just DRAINS money... ugh...

4. You would prefer NO public schools, so only those that could afford private schools or those that can attain vouchers get an education in this country? That is your stance?
I'd prefer competition on schools... We need cyber schools, and the ability to move districts.. sure public schools have to exist, but why should they be the only option. right not cyber schools in PA have been doing very well and have some of the highest SAT scores in PA... it's state funded but instead of draining money into a building they give it back to the student.. hell you can take college course in 10th grade and have a associates degree when you graduate.. all for FREE paid for by your taxes instead of paying maintenance on a ****ing building...

5. A lot of poor people only have access to computers through the library. The over-riding theme in your arguments seem to be your absolute refusal to acknowledge those that are under-privileged and living in poverty.
um what do they need PC's for? get on myspace? uhh if you want a ****ing computer go out, work the extra hours and BUY ONE... the **** it's not a RIGHT to have a PC. I'm so sick of your attitude man... Jesus you must have gotten everything you ever wanted never had to work for it and think that everyone else should live that way to... wake the **** up! this is not reality.
Your argument is weak.
wow
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Old 03-14-2009, 03:36 AM   #28
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Default Re: Why do I always hear American Conservatives argue...

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Originally Posted by Tainted Sword
I agree. I was just pointing out the flaws in the conservative agenda. They’re always talking about less government and deregulation, which I think is a very bad idea. The last time this country was as deregulated as they wish to have it, children were working 12 hours a day in factories, and people were grossly underpaid. Regulation is what stopped this. The regulations we have now keep people honest and prevent the turn to full capitalism, which imo is evil.

What freaks me out is a lot of the conservative base is poor people who’re getting their religion exploited. What the republicans want won’t help the poor man, yet a lot of blue collar voters follow their lies like it’s gospel. I saw this interesting HBO documentary on McCain’s supporters just yesterday and I was shocked at how poor some of them were. How could they vote against a policy that would help them and lower their taxes?

I don't really like the democrats much either, but they're clearly the lesser of two evils.
Yeah... I was agreeing with you. I just sort of picked up where you left off. Completely agree and I also saw the documentary on HBO... very sad and disheartening.
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Old 03-14-2009, 03:37 AM   #29
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Default Re: Why do I always hear American Conservatives argue...

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Originally Posted by Tainted Sword
I agree. I was just pointing out the flaws in the conservative agenda. They’re always talking about less government and deregulation, which I think is a very bad idea. The last time this country was as deregulated as they wish to have it, children were working 12 hours a day in factories, and people were grossly underpaid. Regulation is what stopped this. The regulations we have now keep people honest and prevent the turn to full capitalism, which imo is evil.

What freaks me out is a lot of the conservative base is poor people who’re getting their religion exploited. What the republicans want won’t help the poor man, yet a lot of blue collar voters follow their lies like it’s gospel. I saw this interesting HBO documentary on McCain’s supporters just yesterday and I was shocked at how poor some of them were. How could they vote against a policy that would help them and lower their taxes?

I don't really like the democrats much either, but they're clearly the lesser of two evils.

don't be so ****ing sheepish... GOD it may lower their taxes! but goes where the ****ing taxes shift from! YEAH THEIR BOSS....... ahahaha jesus H christ you are dumb... now the boss is gonna have to fire you know that extra 10 workers because he has to pay that extra tax somehow! jesus...
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Old 03-14-2009, 03:42 AM   #30
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Default Re: Why do I always hear American Conservatives argue...

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Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
This is really the difference between my thinking and your thinking. You believe that there are certain people that don't deserve treatment on potentially fatal diseases/conditions because, for whatever reason, they can't afford it. I believe that treating a serious injury or disease is as important as having police for everyone and schools for everyone.

For me, there aren't those who 'deserve' to be saved and those who do not based on economic status. I love capitalism in certain areas of our society. I just don't think that health care should be about making money and not saving lives.


But you're thinking about this ideally, not logically, IMO. How much of the burden would you be willing to carry in order to get coverage to people who choose not to provide it for themselves. It's easy for you to say give it to everyone when you won't be floating the bill.

What if I decreed that you were to give up 35% of your paycheck to fund that process because you support it, but I wouldnt have to because I don't. Would you be down with that? You might argue it would be unfair that you have to pay money for it, but I don't. Well thats what will ultimately happen anyway, only in your scenario you'll probably be on the side that doesn't pay it, because you aren't currently at such an income level. Either way, the few are gonna end up paying for the many. I think if we flipped the script and that instead of funding it by taxing certain wage earners, we would fund it by taxing all those who support it, you and most others would not be so thrilled with the idea.

I believe you, and most other people who support universal american healthcare, think with their heart on this issue and not with their heads. Life is not all rosey. Conservatives get a bad rap because they implement practicality rather than ideology, which can be flat our more harsh and cut-throat. But it's reality based. It may not be perfect but its the most efficient way feasible. Liberals tend to just shoot for ideals and not realize that if you don't group policies in reality, they're going to be extremely ineffective.
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