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Old 03-14-2009, 04:43 AM   #31
RedBlackAttack
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Default Re: Why do I always hear American Conservatives argue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannonball
wow
Son, go to bed. I was pointing out public institutions that are all ready 'socialized' in this country. Your retort was that we should keep public police, public fire departments, and public education. So, I guess 'socialism' isn't bad in some areas, eh? After all, you are supporting 'socialized' programs.

That is the problem with people like you. Throwing around terms like 'Marxist' and 'socialist' with really no anchor in the real world or a full picture of how our society all ready exists. It has ALWAYS been a combination of capitalism, as well as other philosophies, including socialism... and it always will be.

Total and complete capitalism has never been the way of this country and for good reason... It would be a disaster.
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Old 03-14-2009, 04:46 AM   #32
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Default Re: Why do I always hear American Conservatives argue...

Canada has universal healthcare, and they don’t seem to be on the brink of destruction. It’s been proven that this can work.
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Old 03-14-2009, 04:48 AM   #33
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Default Re: Why do I always hear American Conservatives argue...

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Originally Posted by Tainted Sword
Canada has universal healthcare, and they donít seem to be on the brink of destruction. Itís been proven that this can work.

Did you read my first post in this thread? If not, read the part where I contrasted Canada's situation with that of the United States. Tell me where you think I erred in my assessment.
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Old 03-14-2009, 04:49 AM   #34
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Default Re: Why do I always hear American Conservatives argue...

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Originally Posted by PistolPete
NBC, CNN, ABC, MSNBC = All liberal

New York Times, New York Post, San Francisco Chronicle, L.A. Times, The Boston Globe and many more = All liberal

I don't see why it's that hard to understand


Wow. Oh well, one more person to put on ignore.
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Old 03-14-2009, 04:51 AM   #35
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Default Re: Why do I always hear American Conservatives argue...

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Originally Posted by CelticForce1349
Wow. Oh well, one more person to put on ignore.

Nice contribution to the thread.

A+
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Old 03-14-2009, 04:55 AM   #36
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Default Re: Why do I always hear American Conservatives argue...

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But you're thinking about this ideally, not logically, IMO. How much of the burden would you be willing to carry in order to get coverage to people who choose not to provide it for themselves. It's easy for you to say give it to everyone when you won't be floating the bill.

What if I decreed that you were to give up 35% of your paycheck to fund that process because you support it, but I wouldnt have to because I don't. Would you be down with that? You might argue it would be unfair that you have to pay money for it, but I don't. Well thats what will ultimately happen anyway, only in your scenario you'll probably be on the side that doesn't pay it, because you aren't currently at such an income level. Either way, the few are gonna end up paying for the many. I think if we flipped the script and that instead of funding it by taxing certain wage earners, we would fund it by taxing all those who support it, you and most others would not be so thrilled with the idea.

I believe you, and most other people who support universal american healthcare, think with their heart on this issue and not with their heads. Life is not all rosey. Conservatives get a bad rap because they implement practicality rather than ideology, which can be flat our more harsh and cut-throat. But it's reality based. It may not be perfect but its the most efficient way feasible. Liberals tend to just shoot for ideals and not realize that if you don't group policies in reality, they're going to be extremely ineffective.
First of all, I doubt ANYONE would be giving up 35-percent of their paycheck solely for universal health care. I would be interested to see data supporting that level of taxing, even on the richest 1-percent.

Secondly, if I were making the kind of money that it would take for me to be in the highest tax bracket, I would gladly pay so that everyone in this country could be saved in case of injury or disease. It is just a fundamental right, to me, for a person who lives in a civilized country to not be denied medical care when needed. Like I said... it is as important to me as public police force, public fire departments, and public schools.

Regardless of my tax bracket (which you don't know), it doesn't change the importance that I put on health care for everyone. I have health care. I've had it for three years through my job. Universal health care will have absolutely no effect on me, fiscally... I'm all ready paying for it.

For my dad's friend, however, it could have saved his life. I'm always somewhat confused by conservatives' portrayal of celebrities as being 'out of touch' with their liberal views. As far as I know, guys like Bill Maher, Alec Baldwin, Sean Penn, Jon Stewart, and others would be at or near the highest tax bracket. It hasn't changed their stances on these very fundamental topics. They seem more than willing to chip in for everyone when it comes to societal health.

Last edited by RedBlackAttack : 03-14-2009 at 04:57 AM.
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Old 03-14-2009, 05:06 AM   #37
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Default Re: Why do I always hear American Conservatives argue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by starface
Did you read my first post in this thread? If not, read the part where I contrasted Canada's situation with that of the United States. Tell me where you think I erred in my assessment.
Wow, that was a long post. lol

Anywho, I can see where you’re coming from with the population thing. Correct me if I’m wrong, but wouldn’t the rate be cheaper here since we’ll have more people to draw funds from than Canada? 22 dollars sounds pretty reasonable to me for healthcare coverage.

Concerning the people you think would struggle because of the deductions, I disagree. Whatever money they lose would be evened out by the discount they'll get on Doctor Bills. Everyone gets sick sometime, and a doctor’s visit without coverage would be brutal on a struggling family. My cousin is a cancer survivor and he always tells me how lucky he was to be insured. He saw first hand people who couldn’t pay get rejected by hospitals. So if someone that’s struggling gets sick without healthcare they would be ****ed physically and financially. With healthcare they could atleast weather out the storm, like my cousin.

Last edited by Tainted Sword : 03-14-2009 at 05:08 AM.
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Old 03-14-2009, 05:07 AM   #38
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Default Re: Why do I always hear American Conservatives argue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
Son, go to bed. I was pointing out public institutions that are all ready 'socialized' in this country. Your retort was that we should keep public police, public fire departments, and public education. So, I guess 'socialism' isn't bad in some areas, eh? After all, you are supporting 'socialized' programs.

That is the problem with people like you. Throwing around terms like 'Marxist' and 'socialist' with really no anchor in the real world or a full picture of how our society all ready exists. It has ALWAYS been a combination of capitalism, as well as other philosophies, including socialism... and it always will be.

Total and complete capitalism has never been the way of this country and for good reason... It would be a disaster.
Yes I'm not against having socialized schools fire departments or police. altho i gurantee if we didn't that we could set up the same programs that would cost less and run better if we had a more direct way of running them IE not through government... Idk how you would setup private police forces or firedepartments but if we could I bet they would be much more effienct than the governments.. I guarantee that. so much ****ing money is wasted.. none is created.. it's a big sham.
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Old 03-14-2009, 05:09 AM   #39
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Default Re: Why do I always hear American Conservatives argue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
First of all, I doubt ANYONE would be giving up 35-percent of their paycheck solely for universal health care. I would be interested to see data supporting that level of taxing, even on the richest 1-percent.

Secondly, if I were making the kind of money that it would take for me to be in the highest tax bracket, I would gladly pay so that everyone in this country could be saved in case of injury or disease. It is just a fundamental right, to me, for a person who lives in a civilized country to not be denied medical care when needed. Like I said... it is as important to me as public police force, public fire departments, and public schools.

Regardless of my tax bracket (which you don't know), it doesn't change the importance that I put on health care for everyone. I have health care. I've had it for three years through my job. Universal health care will have absolutely no effect on me, fiscally... I'm all ready paying for it.

For my dad's friend, however, it could have saved his life. I'm always somewhat confused by conservatives' portrayal of celebrities as being 'out of touch' with their liberal views. As far as I know, guys like Bill Maher, Alec Baldwin, Sean Penn, Jon Stewart, and others would be at or near the highest tax bracket. It hasn't changed their stances on these very fundamental topics. They seem more than willing to chip in for everyone when it comes to societal health.
I don't mean to sound cold hearted, but honestly. who the **** cares... Why should it be my problem? that this guy didn't work and set himself up for the future? why should I have to be the victim of his unsuccessful life syle and why didn't he join a church or something.. churches would have bailed this lazy mofo out.. they do it all the time.
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Old 03-14-2009, 05:11 AM   #40
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Default Re: Why do I always hear American Conservatives argue...

[quote=RedBlackAttack]
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
It is just a fundamental right, to me, for a person who lives in a civilized country to not be denied medical care when needed.

You and I each have 50 dollars. We both want a new pair of sneakers. I buy the sneakers. You spend 15 dollars on health care premium and use the other 35 to buy a mutual fund.

A year later I get hurt skateboarding and need surgery. I can't pay for it. You're saying it is my FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT to have you pay for it out of the money you've made with your mutual fund investment?

Or do you believe it is my FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT to have a doctor who worked his tail off so he could make a nice living, just treat me for free because I never paid any money for healthcare.



This is just what I don't understand. People often seem to think 'being free' and 'being paid for by others' are the same thing. States programs as well as most employers ensure that anyone who chooses to act responsibly can afford basic healthcare for themselves without going under. Most people who don't have coverage either did not act responsibly, or simply don't wanna spend the money and expect to get bailed out if anything happens.

You want to bail them out. That's fine. That's a fundamental disagreement we have. My preference would be that you, Jon Stewart, Sean Penn, et al be the ones who fund that process, but I keep the money I've earned and invested.

It just irks me that you put so much more emphasis on what everyone "deserves" rather than what everyone is responsible for. Like if me and a bunch of people knew we were going on a long hike, and I was the only one who worked out and trained for it, then we go on the hike and everyone else starts getting winded so i have to carry their equipment because i'm the only one who's got endurance. Yeah, it's great if you're one of the people who didnt do any work and now gets their equipment carried for free. It's not as appealing if you're carrying the equipment.
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Old 03-14-2009, 05:19 AM   #41
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Default Re: Why do I always hear American Conservatives argue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by starface

You and I each have 50 dollars. We both want a new pair of sneakers. I buy the sneakers. You spend 15 dollars on health care premium and use the other 35 to buy a mutual fund.

A year later I get hurt skateboarding and need surgery. I can't pay for it. You're saying it is my FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT to have you pay for it out of the money you've made with your mutual fund investment?

You would be paying for the healthcare too, so no, you wouldn’t be getting a free ride. No one gets a free ride through pubic school on another person’s paycheck because everyone chips in to pay for everyone, including the teachers. Universal Healthcare would be the same way and Doctors would be paid the same way teachers are.


Everyone has a fundamental right to education, don’t they? Why not add good health as well?
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Old 03-14-2009, 05:28 AM   #42
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Default Re: Why do I always hear American Conservatives argue...

[quote=starface]
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack

You and I each have 50 dollars. We both want a new pair of sneakers. I buy the sneakers. You spend 15 dollars on health care premium and use the other 35 to buy a mutual fund.

A year later I get hurt skateboarding and need surgery. I can't pay for it. You're saying it is my FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT to have you pay for it out of the money you've made with your mutual fund investment?

Or do you believe it is my FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT to have a doctor who worked his tail off so he could make a nice living, just treat me for free because I never paid any money for healthcare.



This is just what I don't understand. People often seem to think 'being free' and 'being paid for by others' are the same thing. States programs as well as most employers ensure that anyone who chooses to act responsibly can afford basic healthcare for themselves without going under. Most people who don't have coverage either did not act responsibly, or simply don't wanna spend the money and expect to get bailed out if anything happens.

You want to bail them out. That's fine. That's a fundamental disagreement we have. My preference would be that you, Jon Stewart, Sean Penn, et al be the ones who fund that process, but I keep the money I've earned and invested.

It just irks me that you put so much more emphasis on what everyone "deserves" rather than what everyone is responsible for. Like if me and a bunch of people knew we were going on a long hike, and I was the only one who worked out and trained for it, then we go on the hike and everyone else starts getting winded so i have to carry their equipment because i'm the only one who's got endurance. Yeah, it's great if you're one of the people who didnt do any work and now gets their equipment carried for free. It's not as appealing if you're carrying the equipment.

Here is the thing, though. The way that our society is designed, there are always going to be the very rich and the very poor. It is just the way things are constructed. So, there will never be a situation in which you have the really rich and everyone else is middle class who will have an opportunity to pay for health care.

The poor aren't always poor because they refuse to work hard or make smart decisions. With the massive amount of job loss that this country is currently experiencing, the gap between rich and poor is only going to increase. It isn't just the lazy that can't afford to pay for health care over things like a house and food.

This is just a fundamental difference between us that will never be resolved. There is no point in rehashing it. We've been down this road.

One thing that we may both agree on, however, is the absolute travesty that is our current health care programs in this country. 10-percent of people with health insurance are denied coverage unjustly... Often because of minor things like filing errors.

http://thyroid.about.com/cs/newsrese...surancepay.htm

Why? Because these insurance companies are not in place to serve the greater health of society. They refuse insurance claims because it helps their bottom line. They specifically look for reasons to deny your claim.

Even if you are insured, you are not completely safe from the pitfalls of having a capitalistic health care system. They will do what they can not to pay, if possible.
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Old 03-14-2009, 05:36 AM   #43
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Default Re: Why do I always hear American Conservatives argue...

I never understood why we can't mold our own system?

Take the best of each system from around the world to fit our needs.


Oh wait..... I do know.

Its called corporate greed and corruption.
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Old 03-14-2009, 05:45 AM   #44
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Default Re: Why do I always hear American Conservatives argue...

BTw..... this isn't directed at anybody since I don't know who's a conservative and who isn't, but just a general statement.

Conservatives are the biggest hypocrites in the world.

No matter what country, race, religious background, social class etc.etc.
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Old 03-14-2009, 06:35 AM   #45
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Default Re: Why do I always hear American Conservatives argue...

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Originally Posted by andgar923
Conservatives are the biggest hypocrites in the world.

No matter what country, race, religious background, social class etc.etc.
Wow nice sweeping statment.

How about this nice little fact:

The vast majority of the world's genocide victims have suffered under the rule of people following a left-wing ideology.
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