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Old 05-01-2009, 12:05 AM   #31
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Default Re: Worst baseball crime: Taking steroids or tipping opponents off to pitches?

Steroids = helping yourself, ultimately your team.

Tipping pitches = helping other team and messing up your own teammates.

So I'd say tipping pitches is much worse. Shows his selfishness if it's true. Sacrifice his team to get his own numbers. I love the sport, but baseball is full of so many cheaters, it's slowly making me want to stop watching.
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Old 05-01-2009, 11:16 AM   #32
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Default Re: Worst baseball crime: Taking steroids or tipping opponents off to pitches?

Cheating has been going on in baseball since the beginning of time. Doesn't make it OK, but there was never any sort of "pure era." It's just that the cheating that goes on is more high tech.

Like others have said about Griffey, I think he comes out of this era looking better than anyone. He started aging when players are supposed to. It's unnatural for guys who are near 40 to be knocking the cover off the ball or throwing gas.
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Old 05-01-2009, 11:46 AM   #33
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Default Re: Worst baseball crime: Taking steroids or tipping opponents off to pitches?

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Originally Posted by mlh1981
Cheating has been going on in baseball since the beginning of time. Doesn't make it OK, but there was never any sort of "pure era." It's just that the cheating that goes on is more high tech.

Like others have said about Griffey, I think he comes out of this era looking better than anyone. He started aging when players are supposed to. It's unnatural for guys who are near 40 to be knocking the cover off the ball or throwing gas.

You really think pitchers were doing stuff too?
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Old 05-01-2009, 11:52 AM   #34
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Default Re: Worst baseball crime: Taking steroids or tipping opponents off to pitches?

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Originally Posted by pete's montreux
You really think pitchers were doing stuff too?

Anyone with any unnatural late career spikes, bodily changes, etc and that list would include some pitchers. Basically, anyone who is still throwing heat at an advanced age in their career, or guys who at relatively late ages, have breakout seasons.

Also, alot of those relief guys are wired differently than other guys. Alot of them are hanging on by a thread. Middle/long relief isn't glamorous work, and there is usually a good reason for someone not being a starter/closer/setup guy. I think those guys are looking for an edge and anything to elevate their status so that they can stay in the game.
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Old 05-01-2009, 12:06 PM   #35
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Default Re: Worst baseball crime: Taking steroids or tipping opponents off to pitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlh1981
Anyone with any unnatural late career spikes, bodily changes, etc and that list would include some pitchers. Basically, anyone who is still throwing heat at an advanced age in their career, or guys who at relatively late ages, have breakout seasons.

Also, alot of those relief guys are wired differently than other guys. Alot of them are hanging on by a thread. Middle/long relief isn't glamorous work, and there is usually a good reason for someone not being a starter/closer/setup guy. I think those guys are looking for an edge and anything to elevate their status so that they can stay in the game.

Other than Clemens, can you name a pitcher who had a season you're describing?
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Old 05-01-2009, 12:13 PM   #36
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Default Re: Worst baseball crime: Taking steroids or tipping opponents off to pitches?

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Other than Clemens, can you name a pitcher who had a season you're describing?
Eric Gagne, Kevin Brown, and a host of other pitchers were implicated.
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Old 05-01-2009, 12:27 PM   #37
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Default Re: Worst baseball crime: Taking steroids or tipping opponents off to pitches?

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Originally Posted by Dasher
Eric Gagne, Kevin Brown, and a host of other pitchers were implicated.

He said pitchers past their prime with late career spikes, body changes. Gagne was young when he was dominate, and it was obvious he was juicing now. I don't really know much about Kevin Brown, but just looking at his stats, It's suspect. Still, he was relatively young when and if he started to juice.
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Old 05-01-2009, 12:36 PM   #38
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Default Re: Worst baseball crime: Taking steroids or tipping opponents off to pitches?

Gangne was a failed starter, and a failed reliever that was on the verge of not being in the league anymore. Pitchers using steroids goes back as far as the 1960s, at least according to Tom House. Todd Jones never came out and said he was using them, but during the early part of the steroids witch hunt he admitted to understanding why a player would use them, and that he would not judge them harshly for it. Middle relievers like Juan Rincon, Jason Grimsley, and Ryan Franklin used steroids in an attempt to stay in the show. It is not a stretch to think that other pitchers, besides Clemons, Gagne, and middle relievers were using steroids, when players have been coming out and admitting that steroid use in baseball goes back all the way to the 60s and 70s.
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Old 05-01-2009, 12:41 PM   #39
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Default Re: Worst baseball crime: Taking steroids or tipping opponents off to pitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dasher
Gangne was a failed starter, and a failed reliever that was on the verge of not being in the league anymore. Pitchers using steroids goes back as far as the 1960s, at least according to Tom House. Todd Jones never came out and said he was using them, but during the early part of the steroids witch hunt he admitted to understanding why a player would use them, and that he would not judge them harshly for it. Middle relievers like Juan Rincon, Jason Grimsley, and Ryan Franklin used steroids in an attempt to stay in the show. It is not a stretch to think that other pitchers, besides Clemons, Gagne, and middle relievers were using steroids, when players have been coming out and admitting that steroid use in baseball goes back all the way to the 60s and 70s.

I completely agree, I'm just looking for better examples. I'm looking for a Clemens type deal. Flamethrower in the beginning of his career, then sucks it up for multiple seasons, then dominates again. That's what MLH described, isn't it? Can you think of any besides Clemens? Could be just some guys who should've retired years ago and pitched way past their prime.

I just believe the juice doesn't help a pitcher. I mean, how could it? It's all about mechanics, command, and control. Those are the attributes of great pitchers, and juicing does nothing to help that.
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Old 05-01-2009, 12:47 PM   #40
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Default Re: Worst baseball crime: Taking steroids or tipping opponents off to pitches?

Maybe it is the Mets fan in me, but I always thought the Braves guys were dirty, especially John Smoltz. The guy became incredibly ripped late in his career. He came back from surgery after surgery, injury after injury.

I agree that pitching is about command and mechanics, but it is also about recovery. The body is not built to throw a baseball. The wear and tear is so great, that most great pitchers are done around age 33.
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Old 05-01-2009, 12:52 PM   #41
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Default Re: Worst baseball crime: Taking steroids or tipping opponents off to pitches?

I can admit Smoltz is questionable. He's had several injuries, always came back. Though, I'm not a headhunter, nor quick to accuse. I'll need concrete evidence.

Just look at Nolan Ryan, and how he was able to extend his career to 26 seasons. He had natural power and the ability to throw 100+ at the age of 15, but no sense of control, command, and literally no mechanics. As he progressed, he worked especially on his mechanics and control [though, still wild 'til the day he retired] and eventually became the text book power pitcher. His mechanics were perfect. You wanna teach a young fire-baller proper mechanics? Show him clips of Nolan Ryan. It's no coincidence that one of the best power pitchers of this era, Randy Johnson was tutored by Ryan in the early 90's.
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Old 05-01-2009, 12:54 PM   #42
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Default Re: Worst baseball crime: Taking steroids or tipping opponents off to pitches?

Another guy would be Dennis Eckersly. He goes to Oakland in 86 and is reborn, and we know how The Athletics got down.
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Old 05-01-2009, 12:55 PM   #43
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Default Re: Worst baseball crime: Taking steroids or tipping opponents off to pitches?

Now that's a great example.

I concur.
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Old 05-01-2009, 03:08 PM   #44
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Default Re: Worst baseball crime: Taking steroids or tipping opponents off to pitches?

Dasher pretty much said it for me. It was on the tip of my tongue, but I posted my comment earlier while I was at work and didn't have the time to develop a more rounded answer than what I gave earlier.
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Old 05-01-2009, 03:16 PM   #45
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Default Re: Worst baseball crime: Taking steroids or tipping opponents off to pitches?

There are so many athletes taking roids these days that it really doesnt bother me that much. Tipping opponents is much worse in my eyes because you are screwing over your own teammates.
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