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Old 05-01-2009, 05:55 PM   #16
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Default Re: where do you rank jack johnson among the great black men

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Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
Joe Louis was a different kind of black icon that contributed in his own way in a different time. I don't think it is fair to compare the two simply because America was a different place in the 30s and 40s compared to the 1910s. By Louis' time, whites were getting used to the idea that a black man could compete against a white man and come out on top.

It was inconceivable in Johnson's time.

Just my two cents.
You should watch the HBO special on Joe Jouis...

http://www.hbo.com/events/joelouis/



It is a REALLY good watch and before I saw it I really didn't know that much about Joe...

and the begining of Joe's career nobody wanted anything to do with the guy becaues of the fact tht he was black...and at first he was hated in the same the way that Jack was...

then came the great German heavyweight Max Schmeling...



Max was German's hero and their champion...

Hitler was also a fan of Max's and watched his fights...

when Joe Louis and Max met in the ring it was during the WWII times and it was seen as the U.S. vs. Germany...

Joe Louis fought him the first time in 1936...and Max beat Joe because apparently Max saw a flaw in Joe's style and took advantage of it...

then came this:

The rematch came, at Yankee Stadium, on June 22, 1938, with Louis defending his crown. By then, a second world war was clearly looming on the horizon, and the fight was viewed worldwide as symbolic battle for superiority between two likely adversaries[citation needed]. In American pre-fight publicity, Schmeling was cast as the Nazi warrior, while Louis was portrayed as a defender of American ideals.

The fight was broadcast by radio all over the United States (on NBC with Clem McCarthy) and Europe. In 2005 it was selected for permanent preservation in the National Recording Registry at the Library of Congress. German sports writer with the Associated Press, Roy Kammerer , based in Berlin wrote in 2005: "The fight was a huge event worldwide and left a lasting impression on his era of Germans, who followed blow-by-blow on radio."[citation needed] Kammerer's account is supported by a 1988 letter to the Sport Editor of the New York Times[3].

Louis retained the title by a technical knockout late in the first round. There is controversy up to this day about the fight, as Schmeling's side complained strongly that the German boxer had repeatedly received illegal kidney punches. Some pictures seem to confirm this claim. If referee Arthur Donovan had stopped the match because of this, Schmeling could have won the world title on a disqualification for the second time. Donovan, however, as well the New York boxing authorities, validated Louis's victory.[4]

Schmeling was branded as a "Nazi" by many boxing fans, but this is untrue. In reality, Schmeling became quite unpopular among Germans after the embarrassing loss to a black man, and was not used anymore in Nazi propaganda, which was a relief to him. In 1928, he hired Joe Jacobs, a Jew, to be his manager. He would point to this fact for the rest of his life in defending himself against charges of Nazi sympathy.




apparently this is one of the first times ever that whites and blacks were brought together and were hugging and celebrating together all over the entire nation...

It was a huge moment in race issues here...and one of the biggest sporting events in the history of this country...much bigger than anything that Ali ever did...many just don't know that much about it because every had to listen to it rather than a television and it was so long ago...but it was a HUGE event...

Joe Louis is a hero to this country and to black people, even if he really didn't intend to be that...he loved white people and black people...

another kind of sad note about him though is that when Ali came around Joe really didn't like him that much...Joe was a very soft spoken loving type...Ali was somewhat the opposite...very loud and very "pro-black" in a way that Joe didn't approve of when he was older...he thought that Ali and that whole movement was the wrong way to go about bringing whites and blacks together...


maybe the greatest fight ever (as far as "meaning" goes)...Joe vs. Max




Last edited by -primetime- : 05-01-2009 at 06:15 PM.
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Old 05-01-2009, 06:37 PM   #17
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Default Re: where do you rank jack johnson among the great black men

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Originally Posted by -primetime-
I watched an HBO special on Joe Louis...amazing watch, he was much more of an icon for black people than both Jack Johnson (who white people hated) and Muhammadi Ali (who he hated because he viewed the Black Panthers and all that as useless violence)....

Joe Louis was hated by white people at the begining of his career, but when he boxed that guy from Germany (forget his name, RBA would know) he became a hero in the United States to everyone, black or white...

Joe Louis may have been the first black athlete that was idolized by white people everywhere...

I may be wrong about this but I think Hitler himself even attended some of his fights before the war got serious...

Joe Louis was a true American Icon when we needed one the most...


from what I know about Jack he flawnted his money in front of everyone and went after white women and was in a way hated by both whites and blacks...

I think he went broke and things turned bad for him after a while...


There's a ecxellent documentary on the man called ( Unforgivable Blackness) it's just as good as the one done for Joe Louis,maybe better, but in my opinion , the man did the best he could with what he had, I think he hardly knew how to read or write, and back in those days , most blacks resented whites, I belive he did things his way, he did not allow the times to dictate his way of life, the fact that he had a relation ship with a white woman, did not make him too popular with the blacks who saw such things as out of their reach and unoptainable, to say nothing about white men who saw it as a blatant and arrogant insult, they hated the man so much they wanted to linch him by the balls, it was'nt the best of times, but he made the best out of it enjoyed himself and refused to be controlled, he was an indominable man....
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Old 05-01-2009, 06:46 PM   #18
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Default Re: where do you rank jack johnson among the great black men

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There's a ecxellent documentary on the man called ( Unforgivable Blackness) it's just as good as the one done for Joe Louis,maybe better, but in my opinion , the man did the best he could with what he had, I think he hardly knew how to read or write, and back in those days , most blacks resented whites, I belive he did things his way, he did not allow the times to dictate his way of life, the fact that he had a relation ship with a white woman, did not make him too popular with the blacks who saw such things as out of their reach and unoptainable, to say nothing about white men who saw it as a blatant and arrogant insult, they hated the man so much they wanted to linch him by the balls, it was'nt the best of times, but he made the best out of it enjoyed himself and refused to be controlled, he was an indominable man....

I want to watch this now...didn't know it existed...



but what you described is part of the reason I don't think he ranks high "among great black men"...

nobody liked the dude...
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Old 05-01-2009, 06:51 PM   #19
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Default Re: where do you rank jack johnson among the great black men

And.....The charge on Jack Johnson was bogus. Not only was the act bogus (The Mann Act), but Johnson wasn't even guilty. And they honestly didn't even charge him because they wanted him to pay for messing around with White women, they charged him because they couldn't find anyone to take the title from him. At the time (unlike today) the Heavyweight Championship of the World was like...the biggest prize their was. It was the early 1900s, and a Black man was king. Not just any Black man, but a cocky one who was too good to be licked by the White fighters at the time.

For the record, when Johnson lost his title to Willard that was AFTER he was convicted. Convicted of a Federal Offense, and he gets to defend his title? Ever wondered why he got to flee the country and avoid prison (initially)? Clearly a back door deal was made.
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Old 05-01-2009, 07:07 PM   #20
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Default Re: where do you rank jack johnson among the great black men

Hey Primetime....not to mention.... another little fact, Jack Johnson predicted Joe Louis would lose to Max Schmeling in the first fight. He even predicted how...with a heavy degree of accuracy.

(Unforgivable Blackness)......."The people who are hated the most are those who are also loved the most."
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Old 05-01-2009, 10:55 PM   #21
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Default Re: where do you rank jack johnson among the great black men

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Originally Posted by -primetime-
I want to watch this now...didn't know it existed...



but what you described is part of the reason I don't think he ranks high "among great black men"...

nobody liked the dude...


I have to back to think and didn't like your post about this man..... first of all what official ranking are you reffering to? why would they go thru the trouble of make a documentary about a man if they did'nt feel he was great and made an inpact in history, In my opinion he was a great man , one who refused to play the role of slave to the white master of the era, he did what multitudes where too afraid to even try....
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Old 05-01-2009, 11:06 PM   #22
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Default Re: where do you rank jack johnson among the great black men

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Originally Posted by Gundress
I have to back to think and didn't like your post about this man..... first of all what official ranking are you reffering to? why would they go thru the trouble of make a documentary about a man if they did'nt feel he was great and made an inpact in history, In my opinion he was a great man , one who refused to play the role of slave to the white master of the era, he did what multitudes where too afraid to even try....
You may be right...I have not seen that documentary on him, but he was talked about alot in the Joe Louis documentary, because Joe had to go through similiar things...

all I know about what they mentioned is that Jack was pretty much hated...by everyone, even many black people...

I don't know how accurate that is and I am sure he had a fan base of black people that loved who he was...

I am just relating this to the thread title..."among great black men"

As of right now I feel like Joe Louis ment more as far as "black men" go than Jack did....but like I said, I want to watch that documentary that you saw....I am sure there is alot about Jack that I don't know...
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