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Old 05-01-2009, 08:47 PM   #31
Carbine
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Default Re: Prime Mike Tyson in the 1970's

There is just no way you can say Tyson was in his prime during that fight. Basically you're saying this was Tyson at his absolute best, which is 100% without question false.

Nothing more needs to be said on this matter. You think he was in his prime during the Douglas fight yet everything goes against that thought - he was lazy in his preperation, he was partying all the time, he even got knocked down by his sparring partner....not to mention the final product that was on display was far from the Tyson we were accustomed to seeing.

I just.... can't understand how anyone would say Tyson was in his prime for that fight. Maybe you need to go watch some fights of Tyson around '85-'88 and compare it to the Tyson that was in the ring that night against Douglas to freshen your memory.
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Old 05-01-2009, 09:08 PM   #32
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Default Re: Prime Mike Tyson in the 1970's

id say tyson vs ali would be interesting, prime ali would have to wear him out but i think ali would manage to and win. Tyson would have trouble with alis speeed and reach

vs frazier i think tyson would win, it would be a ultimate slugfest of small stocky heavyweights but i would imagine trysons speed and leathal upercuts would prevail. i feel tyson was the quicker of the two, although cant take punishment like frazier

Vs prime foreman im pretty sure tyson would loose. Foremans shear size and lumberjack strength would be hard for mike to work agaisnt. Like frazier vs foreman dforeman just wouldnt let him get inside and just batter him with big haymakers
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Old 05-01-2009, 09:13 PM   #33
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Default Re: Prime Mike Tyson in the 1970's

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Originally Posted by CasterL
id say tyson vs ali would be interesting, prime ali would have to wear him out but i think ali would manage to and win. Tyson would have trouble with alis speeed and reach

vs frazier i think tyson would win, it would be a ultimate slugfest of small stocky heavyweights but i would imagine trysons speed and leathal upercuts would prevail. i feel tyson was the quicker of the two, although cant take punishment like frazier

Vs prime foreman im pretty sure tyson would loose. Foremans shear size and lumberjack strength would be hard for mike to work agaisnt. Like frazier vs foreman dforeman just wouldnt let him get inside and just batter him with big haymakers

This guy knows what he's talking about
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Old 05-01-2009, 09:15 PM   #34
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Default Re: Prime Mike Tyson in the 1970's

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Originally Posted by Carbine
There is just no way you can say Tyson was in his prime during that fight. Basically you're saying this was Tyson at his absolute best, which is 100% without question false.

Nothing more needs to be said on this matter. You think he was in his prime during the Douglas fight yet everything goes against that thought - he was lazy in his preperation, he was partying all the time, he even got knocked down by his sparring partner....not to mention the final product that was on display was far from the Tyson we were accustomed to seeing.

I just.... can't understand how anyone would say Tyson was in his prime for that fight. Maybe you need to go watch some fights of Tyson around '85-'88 and compare it to the Tyson that was in the ring that night against Douglas to freshen your memory.

So you're telling me that Mike Tyson was past his prime at 24 years old?
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Old 05-01-2009, 09:21 PM   #35
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Default Re: Prime Mike Tyson in the 1970's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbine
There is just no way you can say Tyson was in his prime during that fight. Basically you're saying this was Tyson at his absolute best, which is 100% without question false.

Nothing more needs to be said on this matter. You think he was in his prime during the Douglas fight yet everything goes against that thought - he was lazy in his preperation, he was partying all the time, he even got knocked down by his sparring partner....not to mention the final product that was on display was far from the Tyson we were accustomed to seeing.

I just.... can't understand how anyone would say Tyson was in his prime for that fight. Maybe you need to go watch some fights of Tyson around '85-'88 and compare it to the Tyson that was in the ring that night against Douglas to freshen your memory.

It is convenient that Tyson's prime lasted just three years and, during that period, he fought the likes of Tyrell Biggs, Tony Tucker, Carl 'The Truth' Williams, Trevor Berbick, and Marvis Frazier.

Oh... I must not forget a 40-year-old Larry Holmes who had been off for two years and a glorified light heavyweight in Michael Spinks.

It is really easy to look good when you are fighting inferior, old competition. The heavyweight division was absolute trash when Tyson came along... Just terrible. That is one of the reasons why people became so consumed with him. They were looking for a heavyweight... Any heavyweight that they could latch on to.

Tyson's power and attitude fit the bill and people bought in, 100-percent. Regardless of his limitations as a fighter (his defense was never great, he always relied too much on his power, and he is a mental midget), people wanted to believe this idea that he is the most destructive force in heavyweight history, even when the facts conflict with this notion. It is always some excuse... Cus died... He didn't train... He wasn't taking his medication.... He was taking his medication... etc.

I will stand by my belief that Mike Tyson is the most overrated athlete in sports history.

Here is a man that dominated for a very short period during a very down era for the division. What is his best win? Michael Spinks? Trevor Berbick? Mitch Green? Do these kind of victories indicate an all-time great fighter?

The truth is, each time that he went up against another great fighter of his own era, he was thoroughly dominated. He wasn't just beaten, but he was annihilated. I really thought after Holyfield flat-out embarrassed him the first time that this aura that surrounds Tyson would dissipate... It didn't.

I've heard all of the excuses about how he was out of boxing and he didn't have Cus, blah, blah, blah... The fact is, leading up to the Holyfield fight, Tyson was doing exactly what he had been doing prior to his incarceration... Knocking out inferior competition...

Peter McNeeley, Buster Mathis Jr., Frank Bruno, Bruce Seldon...

All fighters that were comparable to the guys that he fought in the mid-80s and Tyson did the same thing to them that he did to Mitch Green and Trevor Berbick. I remember people talking about how he was back and refocused.

Then, Holyfield owned him and, all of a sudden, he was washed up... at age 29.

Please.

People just aren't willing to admit that Mike was never as good as he looked against those slugs in the mid-80s. They want to believe the myth. I get it, but any rational fan who follows boxing should be able to see through the facade and accept the reality.

Last edited by RedBlackAttack : 05-01-2009 at 09:24 PM.
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Old 05-01-2009, 09:30 PM   #36
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Default Re: Prime Mike Tyson in the 1970's

Context my friend, context.

You look at his age on the outside and it sure looks like 24 would be his prime... but you dig a little deeper and you see that is not the case, as situations outside of the boxing ring, his work ethic, losing his only real father figure, the divorse situation, getting in a car accident, firing (or Kevin qutting, depending on who you ask) his last real connection with Gus in Kevin Rooney in 1988....

He might have been 24, but he was not in his boxing prime. Take a look at fights from 85 to 86 and compare it to the Douglas fight... easy to see.
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Old 05-01-2009, 09:41 PM   #37
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Default Re: Prime Mike Tyson in the 1970's

As much as you don`t want to believe it, RBA, the Tyson we saw when Cus was around slowly went away after he died. Did we ever get to see Tyson fight a truly great heavyweight in his prime, no.... but he demolished everyone that was brought to him when Cus was around, so its not like he struggled, or barely beat these guys... he demolished them - what more could he do. It`s like scoring 81 against the Raps... sure, their defense wasnt great, but scoring 81 points is insane and you cant expect anything more from him. Same with Tyson, he embarrased these guys.

Also, I disagree with you that his defense was not great... his head movement and his overall quickness in his moves were great, rarely did you see someone connect with him when Cus was around. I believe Rooney went into detail with this in one of his interviews, though not sure.

I don`t judge Mike for his losses to Douglas, Lewis or Hollyfield... he clearly was not the same fighter for those fights as he once was. There will always be three Tyson`to me.... Tyson with Cus and Rooney, Tyson with Rooney, and Tyson with Don King....

The only two Tysons that were close in ability were the first two, in which he never lost a fight.... but after Rooney left he was never the same. Even leading up to that, it was never really the same as when Cus had been around.

Hard to imagine one person being so responsible for a boxers success, but Mike was so mentally unstable that Cus was exactly the dude that was needed to keep Mike in check and up to his full potential.
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Old 05-01-2009, 09:41 PM   #38
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Default Re: Prime Mike Tyson in the 1970's

There's noone in the 70's to challenge him. Ali was past it. Foreman was going life and death with guys like Ron Lyle and Jimmy young. Frazier was past it, and even at his best, was an extremely slow, 1 handed, weak, smaller version of Tyson.

Maybe Holmes but he wasn't quite established yet
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Old 05-01-2009, 09:41 PM   #39
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Default Re: Prime Mike Tyson in the 1970's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbine
Context my friend, context.

You look at his age on the outside and it sure looks like 24 would be his prime... but you dig a little deeper and you see that is not the case, as situations outside of the boxing ring, his work ethic, losing his only real father figure, the divorse situation, getting in a car accident, firing (or Kevin qutting, depending on who you ask) his last real connection with Gus in Kevin Rooney in 1988....

He might have been 24, but he was not in his boxing prime. Take a look at fights from 85 to 86 and compare it to the Douglas fight... easy to see.
I've watched virtually all of his fights... multiple times.

What I see is a guy that fought in a very poor division against a bunch of bums, got a huge reputation, and then couldn't live up to it when he went against elite competition. It is pretty clear-cut, to me.

What is Tyson's best win?
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Old 05-01-2009, 09:42 PM   #40
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Default Re: Prime Mike Tyson in the 1970's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kute
There's noone in the 70's to challenge him. Ali was past it. Foreman was going life and death with guys like Ron Lyle and Jimmy young. Frazier was past it, and even at his best, was an extremely slow, 1 handed, weak, smaller version of Tyson.

Maybe Holmes but he wasn't quite established yet


Don't be silly.
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Old 05-01-2009, 09:43 PM   #41
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Default Re: Prime Mike Tyson in the 1970's

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Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack


Don't be silly.


Argue with me then champ.
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Old 05-01-2009, 09:45 PM   #42
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Default Re: Prime Mike Tyson in the 1970's

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Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
I've watched virtually all of his fights... multiple times.

What I see is a guy that fought in a very poor division against a bunch of bums, got a huge reputation, and then couldn't live up to it when he went against elite competition. It is pretty clear-cut, to me.

What is Tyson's best win?


Flawed argument. What's Marcianos best win? What's Louis's best win? Tyson at his best didn't have a great prime fighter in his division. He cut through the greatest light heavy of all-time, and he ko'd Holmes who was past it (but he still went on to win againsat very good coimpetition years later)

The 80's get underrated, cocaine is a hell of a drug, but at the same time this was the first era of really talented big men.
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Old 05-01-2009, 09:50 PM   #43
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Default Re: Prime Mike Tyson in the 1970's

List of great heavyweights who have wins over other great heavyweights reasonably near their prime off the top of my head

lewis over a slightly shot holyfield
holyfield over a post-prison, deteriorating tyson
bowe over holyfield
ali over foreman, frazier, floyd patterson, and liston (obvious GOAT and by far)
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Old 05-01-2009, 09:53 PM   #44
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Default Re: Prime Mike Tyson in the 1970's

RBA you have to understand that even though it was a bunch of "tin cans" that Tyson was knocking out back then the reason that he captured the public the way he did and the reason that 4 of the top 5 Pay Per View events are all Tyson fights still TO THIS DAY is because no one had ever seen a fighter that f*cked other boxers up the way that Tyson did...

His vicious pit bull style was something that was never seen before...he would go in there and just f*ck up the other guy so quick and so viciously to the point that it was just jaw dropping...

also you have to keep in mind that those "tin cans" were STILL heavyweight fighters that had victorys under their belts...it is still impressive that he was dropping guys like that in the first round on a regular basis...


Tyson lost to Douglas fair and square...the better fighter did win that night...no question...

but you can't just brush Tyson off as some scrub because of who it was he was f*cking up...

I personally do think that Ali and Foreman would have beaten Tyson...(given they survive the first 3-4 rounds)...but the others listed there I am not so sure about...

I'll tell you this...If I had to bet $10,000 on prime Tyson vs. prime Frazier....I am pretty sure that my $$$ will be with Kid Dynamite...
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Old 05-01-2009, 09:56 PM   #45
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Default Re: Prime Mike Tyson in the 1970's

I don't see anyway Foreman beats Tyson. Not having a defense is ok against Frazier and somewhat against Lyle (though he almost bit) but with tyson throwing 3-4 shots to every 1 of those looping uppercuts, and with tyson being much strudier built and the same weight with punches going in twice as fast and a defense that didn't take a serious punch until he fired his team and stopped training...
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