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Old 05-04-2009, 11:39 AM   #76
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Default Re: Prime Mike Tyson in the 1970's

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Old 05-05-2009, 12:54 PM   #77
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Default Re: Prime Mike Tyson in the 1970's

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonDadda59
So Holyfield had a bad shoulder, heart problems, hepatits, was 4 years older, and put up poor performances/lost to Michael Moorer and Riddick Bowe meanwhile Tyson was doing what he did best- knock out tomato cans in the first round... but Holyfield was on top of his game and Tyson was past his prime? Read what you wrote again, tell me if it makes even a little bit of sense

And please illuminate me oh wise one on why Tyson lost to Douglas, I've only seen the fight like 15 times... could've sworn Buster beat him because he knocked him the **** out, but apparently that wasn't the case. Let me guess, it was because Cus D'Amato died 5 years before the fight took place? Tyson was past his prime, despite being only 24, being undefeated, being a 42-1 favorite, and generally considered to be unbeatable/indestructible?


First paragraph honestly I got nothing to say to you about. Did you watch the damn fight? Have you seen Holyfield put on a better performance? He was at the top of his game, end of story.

Second paragraph, Tyson lost to Douglass because of the following:

1) Tyson was out of shape (even flabby)
2) Tyson looked at the ridiculous odds and figured he didn't even have to try.
3) Tyson had a lot of emotional distress at home
4) Buster's mom had just died, causing Buster to put on the best performance of his life.
5) Tyson KOed Douglass before Douglass KOed him. 13 second 10 count.

If there was a rematch Douglass would have got KTFOed, rest assured.

And Tyson KOed better fighters than Tomato cans.
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Old 05-05-2009, 03:15 PM   #78
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Default Re: Prime Mike Tyson in the 1970's

I hate revisionist history surrounding Tyson.

If one uses the time machine argument, I would only comfortably pick Ali, Foreman, and Larry Holmes to beat Tyson more than half of the time.

His hilarious antics aside, he was one of the most brilliant technical boxers ever. Recognize.
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Old 05-05-2009, 03:36 PM   #79
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Default Re: Prime Mike Tyson in the 1970's

Honestly... If this were any other athlete in sports history, people would get absolutely crushed for making all of these excuses for every loss.

Fact: Tyson never beat a fellow great fighter in their prime.

Fact: Tyson was soundly beaten each time he attempted to beat a fellow great.

People just don't want to accept it. Talk about revisionist history... I guess beating Buster Mathis Jr. and Trevor Berbick makes you a brilliant technical boxer.
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Old 05-05-2009, 03:57 PM   #80
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Default Re: Prime Mike Tyson in the 1970's

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Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
Honestly... If this were any other athlete in sports history, people would get absolutely crushed for making all of these excuses for every loss.

Fact: Tyson never beat a fellow great fighter in their prime.

Fact: Tyson was soundly beaten each time he attempted to beat a fellow great.

People just don't want to accept it. Talk about revisionist history... I guess beating Buster Mathis Jr. and Trevor Berbick makes you a brilliant technical boxer.

Except that Tyson beat a still-dangerous Larry Holmes, who nearly beat a prime Holyfield and was one of the first people ever to beat Ray Mercer, one of the greatest light-heavies ever in Michael Spinks, and a slew of very solid gatekeepers at heavyweight.

The list of people who fought and defeated legends at heavyweight is fairly short, while the vast majority of star fighters make their legend mostly beating gatekeepers. Tyson certainly is not unique in that regard to many other people who get a pass on this point, like Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano.

Anyone who would look at a prime Tyson and claim he was anything less than a brilliant technical boxer doesn't know boxing. Yes, his skills obviously declined at an extreme rate after prison, but during his prime I would only take at the most a half-dozen boxers above Mike, while Tyson provided one of the best combination of head movement, punching power and punching accuracy in boxing Heavyweight History.
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Old 05-05-2009, 04:14 PM   #81
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Default Re: Prime Mike Tyson in the 1970's

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Except that Tyson beat a still-dangerous Larry Holmes,

Holmes was washed up at that point. All he had was that jab and nothing else
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Old 05-05-2009, 04:20 PM   #82
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Default Re: Prime Mike Tyson in the 1970's

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Originally Posted by Tarik One
Holmes was washed up at that point. All he had was that jab and nothing else

Is that like saying all Shaq can do is dunk, and nothing else?

He was over-the-hill, but still a dangerous fighter, the man who four years LATER would be the first person to defeat former champion Ray Mercer, and fighting an extremely close fight against a prime Evander Holyfield, who obviously was an all-time great.
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Old 05-05-2009, 04:28 PM   #83
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Default Re: Prime Mike Tyson in the 1970's

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Ray Mercer, and fighting an extremely close fight against a prime Evander Holyfield, who obviously was an all-time great.

Ray Mercer. haha. I absolutely HATED that era of the heavyweight division. Bunch of scrubs like Orlin Norris, Frank Bruno, Tommy Morrison, that fat ass Buster Mathis jr, Jose Ribalda, and the guy who got sucker punched by Riddick Bowe (Don something).

Once Tyson got locked up, that just opened the gates for a herd of palookas
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Old 05-05-2009, 04:31 PM   #84
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Default Re: Prime Mike Tyson in the 1970's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bush4Ever
Except that Tyson beat a still-dangerous Larry Holmes, who nearly beat a prime Holyfield and was one of the first people ever to beat Ray Mercer, one of the greatest light-heavies ever in Michael Spinks, and a slew of very solid gatekeepers at heavyweight.

The list of people who fought and defeated legends at heavyweight is fairly short, while the vast majority of star fighters make their legend mostly beating gatekeepers. Tyson certainly is not unique in that regard to many other people who get a pass on this point, like Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano.

Anyone who would look at a prime Tyson and claim he was anything less than a brilliant technical boxer doesn't know boxing. Yes, his skills obviously declined at an extreme rate after prison, but during his prime I would only take at the most a half-dozen boxers above Mike, while Tyson provided one of the best combination of head movement, punching power and punching accuracy in boxing Heavyweight History.
I asked what other great fighters in their primes Tyson has as wins on his resume and you make mention of a 40-year-old Larry Holmes and a glorified light heavyweight in Michael Spinks.

Larry Holmes in his previous three fights heading into his bout with Tyson, lost twice to Michael Spinks and barely edged Carl 'The Truth' Williams. Then, he took two years off and, at the age of 40, returned to the ring to fight Tyson. That is one of Tyson's two best wins?

I don't care if Holmes went on to beat Mercer a few years later. That says more about Mercer than it does about a 43-year-old Holmes. And, he didn't 'nearly beat' Evander Holyfield. EH won relatively handily on the scorecards and I didn't think the fight was as close as the judges had it. That is like saying that Razor Ruddock and Tony Tucker nearly beat Tyson.

Michael Spinks was a great light heavyweight. Unlike Holyfield, however, he never made a great heavyweight. He fought exactly five fights in the heavyweight division. That included two very narrow decisions (one a split decision) over an old Larry Holmes and his loss to Tyson. After falling to Mike, he retired... For good. He was not a heavyweight and shouldn't be remembered as such.

The list of GREAT heavyweights who fought and beat other great heavyweights is pretty lengthy. In fact, if you give me a great HW fighter, chances are I can name a great fighter another great fighter that they beat at some point in their career. Marciano does not fall into this category. He is almost as overrated as Tyson... Not quite, though.

Tyson's 'skill' is vastly overrated. But, regardless, boxing is about more than just how hard you punch and whether or not you bob your head. Boxing is often about adjusting and re-adjusting your gameplan as the fight is happening. Boxing is about knowing how to face adversity and come back even stronger. Boxing is about ring intelligence and knowing how to out-smart your opponent. Boxing is about sticking to the fundamentals even when things aren't going your way. These things are especially true when you are going against another great fighter.

Unfortunately for Tyson, he failed miserably in all four areas every time he was sufficiently tested. Watch the Buster Douglas fight again... Watch the Holyfield fight... In both, Tyson started the fight by doing his patented head bob defense and trying to work his way inside. In both fights, he completely abandoned that gameplan as soon as he faced adversity and became strictly a head-hunter. That is not the sign of a great fighter and it had nothing to do with him being washed up at 28 or because Cus died or because he was on medication.

He is an undisciplined person and an undisciplined fighter. You put a great heavyweight in their prime in front of him in the mid-80s and I would bet anything that you would have the same progression. Fortunately for him, he didn't face a great HW in his prime during his run in the 80s, so people have spent the ensuing 30 years making excuses for him when he finally did face guys that weren't afraid of him and could match his physical talents.

Last edited by RedBlackAttack : 05-05-2009 at 04:42 PM.
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Old 05-05-2009, 04:40 PM   #85
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Default Re: Prime Mike Tyson in the 1970's

I hate the fact that you really think the Tyson that was fighting Buster & Hollyfield was the same Tyson when Cus and Rooney were around.

Many experts, historians, etc all believe the same thing - he wasn't the same fighter.

How come you fail to do so?

Your argument is he looked like the old Tyson for short bursts... well, Shaq looked like prime Shaq in spurts this year, but nobody would say he was at his absolute prime, would they?
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Old 05-05-2009, 04:53 PM   #86
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Default Re: Prime Mike Tyson in the 1970's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbine
Your argument is he looked like the old Tyson for short bursts... well, Shaq looked like prime Shaq in spurts this year, but nobody would say he was at his absolute prime, would they?
My reasoning is pretty clear. He looked like the mid-80s Tyson until he faced serious adversity (which he really didn't during his run in the mid-80s). Then, he pretty much forgot everything that he was ever taught and resorted to going for one-punch knockouts. The point that I am making that you aren't accepting is that the reason you never saw an undisciplined Tyson in the 80s was because he never faced anyone that could match his physical tools and could surpass his ring smarts.

I'm sorry, but Trevor Berbick, Mitch Blood Green, and Tony Tubbs did not have the sufficient tools, either physically or mentally, to challenge Tyson in a way that would have proved his mettle early in his career.

FWIW, most other boxing historians that I have encountered agree with me that Tyson is laughably overrated. I posted for years and years on maxboxing's forums. Every so often, you would have a new poster register onto the site talking about how a young Tyson was unbeatable and they would get instantly flamed and generally ignored... And there are some great boxing historians posting over there.

But, regardless... I don't need validation from others. I have been studying the sport and its history for my entire life. I feel that I am versed enough in the sport to give my own opinion and back it up. I really don't see the need to rely on others. I'm not saying you do and I do respect you as a poster on this board, but this is a subject that I don't ever see us agreeing on.
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Old 05-05-2009, 04:55 PM   #87
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Default Re: Prime Mike Tyson in the 1970's

I didn't' really mean to imply that Tyson's best wins were against the aforementioned people, but rather that those were probably the biggest names. You can nitpick pretty much anyone's career to death. I'm not sure who this mythical fighter is that doesn't have a blemish or two on his ledger.

Tyson also had a string of dominating victories over fighters who very arguably could be champions in today's heavyweight division, such as Frank Bruno or Tony Tubbs. These aren't nobodies. These are far above average fighters. As far as the Douglas fight, he lost because he didn't train and was possibly on cocaine. That falls on him, but Tyson STILL knocking down Douglas, and still being virtually even on two cards before the KO, despite Douglas giving an all-time great performance shows how talented he was.

Tyson's technical abilities during the time are beyond reproach. Degrading elusiveness, punching power, and punching accuracy/speed in favor of this nebulous "intelligence" thing is like degrading shooting ability, ballhandling, and defensive ability in favor of "basketball IQ". In the most important parts of boxing (I speak from personal experience), Tyson was heads and shoulders above 99.99 percent of the boxing world.

I'm exclusively talking about a prime pre-prison Tyson by the way. There is no question his skills and abilities went rapidly downhill, which rightfully hurts his legend.

But in terms of peak performance, Tyson was very strong.


EDIT: By the way, I think reasonable people can disagree with how Tyson is ranked, especially depending on the criteria, but my only problem is when people use different standards for different fighters (like degrading a prime Tyson's competition while passing off Joe Louis's, etc...)

Last edited by Bush4Ever : 05-05-2009 at 05:01 PM.
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Old 05-05-2009, 05:09 PM   #88
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Default Re: Prime Mike Tyson in the 1970's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bush4Ever
Tyson also had a string of dominating victories over fighters who very arguably could be champions in today's heavyweight division, such as Frank Bruno or Tony Tubbs. These aren't nobodies. These are far above average fighters. As far as the Douglas fight, he lost because he didn't train and was possibly on cocaine. That falls on him, but Tyson STILL knocking down Douglas, and still being virtually even on two cards before the KO, despite Douglas giving an all-time great performance shows how talented he was.
It is pretty clear that we are never going to agree on Tyson's place in boxing history and how he should be remembered, but I did want to address this part of your post...

First, today's heavyweight division is beyond pathetic. In fact, it is WORSE than the division that Tyson came along and destroyed in the mid-80s, which is saying something. If another knockout artist came out of nowhere and started dismantling the division today, I would expect people to react in the same way and immediately overrate him... Especially if that fighter was an American.

Second, Tony Tubbs and Frank Bruno were not bad fighters and I even addressed this point in another thread. Tyson was great at absolutely destroying fighters that he was superior to, regardless of how close they may have been to his skill-set. If Mike was better than said fighter, even if it was relatively marginally, chances are that he was going to be dominant against them. But, at the end of the day, neither Tubbs nor Bruno are remembered as 'great' fighters. Good fighters... Sure.

But, a guy that people compare kindly to the greatest HWs in the history of the sport should have better wins on his resume. For the record, he beat down Frank Bruno after his incarceration, which goes to prove my point even further.

Third, the Douglas fight was not close, in any way, shape, or form. If any of the judges had it as a close fight, they should have their licenses revoked. Douglas annihilated Tyson and there is really no other way to put it. People generally only remember that final beautiful combination by Buster, but the truth is, he was landing combinations like that throughout the fight. It was a masterful performance by Buster. In fact, the round in which Tyson knocked him down may have been one of maybe two rounds that I had him winning in the fight... And he was losing that round until the KD.

That fight was not close.

As for the KD, it was clear that Buster wasn't significantly hurt. He pounds the canvas with his fist out of frustration immediately upon falling and he then watches the referee count, takes his time, and gets up. This whole idea that it was a 'long' count and that Buster should have been counted out is nonsense. He did the smart thing... Take all of the time that the referee gave him and then got on his feet immediately when the count reached eight.

It was proven that he wasn't hurt when he came out in the next round and resumed beating Tyson like a rented mule.
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Old 05-05-2009, 11:33 PM   #89
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Default Re: Prime Mike Tyson in the 1970's

One last thing... I don't want to give the impression that I don't understand why a lot of people like sticking up for Iron Mike. I used to be a huge fan of the guy. In the 1980s, I waited for his fights on pins and needles. Punchout was my favorite game as a kid.

When I give my opinion on Tyson, I feel that a lot of people take it as though I am attacking their childhood hero. I understand that, because I was also a child of the 80s and I loved the guy.

I rooted for Tyson against Spinks, Berbick, Holyfield, Lewis, and every other bout that he was ever involved in.

So, I get it... The guy was an uber-exciting fighter in a sport where, often, the best guys don't have eye-pleasing styles outside of hardcore boxing fans. Tyson was pure entertainment and the sport is less exciting to the general sports fans now that he is gone.

However, that is still no excuse for not looking at his career achievements rationally. That is all that I'm trying to do.

/rant
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