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Old 05-04-2009, 08:44 PM   #16
RedBlackAttack
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Default Re: Pernell Whitaker >>>Manny Pacquaio

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicman
Come on man, Taylor won that fight, that was rigged as
I feel bad for Taylor because I thought he earned the right to have his hand raised by standing up at the end, but I would never say that he 'won the fight.' He had a very bright career beaten out of him that night.

Yes... If it would have gone to the cards, he would have surely out-pointed JCC. But, JCC brutally brutalized Taylor and Meldrick is still suffering the consequences to this day.
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Old 05-04-2009, 08:47 PM   #17
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Default Re: Pernell Whitaker >>>Manny Pacquaio

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
I feel bad for Taylor because I thought he earned the right to have his hand raised by standing up at the end, but I would never say that he 'won the fight.' He had a very bright career beaten out of him that night.

Yes... If it would have gone to the cards, he would have surely out-pointed JCC. But, JCC brutally brutalized Taylor and Meldrick is still suffering the consequences to this day.

Yeah, but you dont stop a fight with 2 seconds left in the final round, especially when the guy gets up at the count of 6 and nods his head to continue!
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Old 05-04-2009, 09:54 PM   #18
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Default Re: Pernell Whitaker >>>Manny Pacquaio

Quote:
Originally Posted by andgar923
I honestly don't remember that fight. Some of you must really have a great memory to be honest.

But I do know that he ran alot in his career. From what I understand, most judges didn't like the way he was fighting, they saw JCC as the aggressor which resulted in the draw. Of course, I/they could be wrong.

And my I understand that many won't like my original comment in regards to many black boxers being "runners," but its true for the most part.

And its something that I never understood considering their speed and elusiveness. I never understood why many run so much.
Boxing is called the 'sweet science' for a reason. If people want to watch two guys brawling and flailing punches at each other, I suggest a tough man contest.

Great boxers want to hit and not be hit. Whitaker didn't run. Watch this video and tell me that he was 'running.' He wasn't... He was just great at making guys miss.

If judges can't respect that, they don't understand the sport and they should find a different occupation. To me, it is an art to fight the way that PBF and Whittaker do/did. Willie Pep once won a round without throwing a punch... That is true defensive skill. These guys are a joy to watch for any purist.
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Old 05-04-2009, 10:06 PM   #19
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Default Re: Pernell Whitaker >>>Manny Pacquaio

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
Boxing is called the 'sweet science' for a reason. If people want to watch two guys brawling and flailing punches at each other, I suggest a tough man contest.

Great boxers want to hit and not be hit. Whitaker didn't run. Watch this video and tell me that he was 'running.' He wasn't... He was just great at making guys miss.

If judges can't respect that, they don't understand the sport and they should find a different occupation. To me, it is an art to fight the way that PBF and Whittaker do/did. Willie Pep once won a round without throwing a punch... That is true defensive skill. These guys are a joy to watch for any purist.

Dude.... are you kidding me?!

I agree there's instances where he does a great job at ducking and moving, but for the most part he's literally backing away (in the first fighter section), when he's in the corner he literally walks away and keeps backpedalling for most of the clips.

He'd do some quick combos (which is nothing wrong with that) but then he retreats. Its like he's getting his quick punches (points) and then runs around avoiding punches.

And like I mentioned, there's a thin line between running and good defense. And that was mostly running.

A good defender is a combination of elusiveness (some of which was displayed), keeping your opponent off balance by attacking and just being smart by taking away angles.

What was in display (for the first fighter, I didn't watch after that) was mostly running and literally backpedalling, he might as well be doing the running man.

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Old 05-04-2009, 10:07 PM   #20
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Default Re: Pernell Whitaker >>>Manny Pacquaio

Again... Watch this and tell me he is 'running.'
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Old 05-04-2009, 10:12 PM   #21
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Default Re: Pernell Whitaker >>>Manny Pacquaio

Just saw clips of the second fighter, and he was running for most of them as well. That's good defense?

Hell... I can do some of that as well.

Now...... the Oscar clips are a different story. Now THAT was great defense, he was doing a wonderful job at avoiding the hits and not running.
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Old 05-04-2009, 10:15 PM   #22
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Default Re: Pernell Whitaker >>>Manny Pacquaio

Quote:
Originally Posted by andgar923
Just saw clips of the second fighter, and he was running for most of them as well. That's good defense?

Hell... I can do some of that as well.

Now...... the Oscar clips are a different story. Now THAT was great defense, he was doing a wonderful job at avoiding the hits and not running.
Your definition of 'running' and mine must be different. When you have an offensive minded fighter in front of you who is trying to get off, when you bait said fighter into throwing punches and wasting himself while you calmly duck, bob, and weave out of trouble, that is great defense and it is also great strategy. The general sports fan may not like it because they want every fight to be a slugfest, but if you can hit and not be hit, you should absolutely do it.
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Old 05-04-2009, 10:16 PM   #23
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Default Re: Pernell Whitaker >>>Manny Pacquaio

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
Again... Watch this and tell me he is 'running.'

Great selective editing

I'm never gonna take away their elusive prowess, but like I keep mentioning: there's a thin line between defense and running.

In that clip he was wonderful at moving, his defense was impeccable. But I've seen him run and run just as much (if not more) than anything.

That's not hate, because I'm not that huge a boxing fan to care about a boxer. I'm just calling it like I see it that's all.
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Old 05-04-2009, 10:20 PM   #24
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Default Re: Pernell Whitaker >>>Manny Pacquaio

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
Your definition of 'running' and mine must be different. When you have an offensive minded fighter in front of you who is trying to get off, when you bait said fighter into throwing punches and wasting himself while you calmly duck, bob, and weave out of trouble, that is great defense and it is also great strategy. The general sports fan may not like it because they want every fight to be a slugfest, but if you can hit and not be hit, you should absolutely do it.


There's a difference between that and constantly moving backwards aka RUNNING.

At that point it becomes less about everything you just mentioned and more about just getting away from the offensive boxer in order to not get hit. Watch them again, they're constantly backpedalling while the more aggressive boxer is literally chasing them all over the ring from rope to rope.

There's also a difference between 'moving' from side to side and just moving backwards. Even a step or two back is cool, but these dudes are moving entire 3-6 steps back constantly.

Seriously, how can you not differentiate the two?

Specially when there's text book examples of both in the vids you posted?
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Old 05-04-2009, 10:20 PM   #25
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Default Re: Pernell Whitaker >>>Manny Pacquaio

charlie zelanoff > whitaker > pacman
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Old 05-04-2009, 10:39 PM   #26
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Default Re: Pernell Whitaker >>>Manny Pacquaio

Quote:
Originally Posted by andgar923
There's a difference between that and constantly moving backwards aka RUNNING.

At that point it becomes less about everything you just mentioned and more about just getting away from the offensive boxer in order to not get hit. Watch them again, they're constantly backpedalling while the more aggressive boxer is literally chasing them all over the ring from rope to rope.

There's also a difference between 'moving' from side to side and just moving backwards. Even a step or two back is cool, but these dudes are moving entire 3-6 steps back constantly.

Seriously, how can you not differentiate the two?

Specially when there's text book examples of both in the vids you posted?
I'll break it down for you in its simplest terms... The difference between what Floyd and Pernell do and 'running' is that they bait fighters into letting their hands go and throwing punches. That is part of the beauty of great defense. They make you think that they are open for punches, but when opponents throw, they find nothing but air.

If a guy was just in the ring running around, boxers would follow, but wouldn't let their hands go. When you have guys throwing 5-punch combinations and not connecting with any, that is superb defense.

Boxers don't just mindlessly throw punches, especially on that level. When those guys let their hands go, they expect to connect on at least some of them. Whittaker would literally stick his chin out, begging guys to open up.

Floyd literally follows fighters around the ring. I've seen him back guys down, but not throw punches. He waits in his shell for the punches to come. When they do, he avoids them and fires back with perfectly timed counter shots.

If you don't see that, I don't know what to tell you.
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Old 05-04-2009, 10:46 PM   #27
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Default Re: Pernell Whitaker >>>Manny Pacquaio

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
I'll break it down for you in its simplest terms... The difference between what Floyd and Pernell do and 'running' is that they bait fighters into letting their hands go and throwing punches. That is part of the beauty of great defense. They make you think that they are open for punches, but when opponents throw, they find nothing but air.

If a guy was just in the ring running around, boxers would follow, but wouldn't let their hands go. When you have guys throwing 5-punch combinations and not connecting with any, that is superb defense.

Boxers don't just mindlessly throw punches, especially on that level. When those guys let their hands go, they expect to connect on at least some of them. Whittaker would literally stick his chin out, begging guys to open up.

Floyd literally follows fighters around the ring. I've seen him back guys down, but not throw punches. He waits in his shell for the punches to come. When they do, he avoids them and fires back with perfectly timed counter shots.

If you don't see that, I don't know what to tell you.

Nope

Again... there's a difference, a thin one but a difference. I agree with most of that, and they do some of that, but they also do alot of running. Where boxers have to chase them down (without swinging), or at times they do exactly what you first described but in the middle of the combinations backpedal and backpedal.

I half agree with you (and have the entire time), I just don't get why you can't also see them running as well. I agree that they do what you say they do, but they also do alot of what I say they do.
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Old 05-04-2009, 11:01 PM   #28
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Default Re: Pernell Whitaker >>>Manny Pacquaio

Quote:
Originally Posted by andgar923
Nope

Again... there's a difference, a thin one but a difference. I agree with most of that, and they do some of that, but they also do alot of running. Where boxers have to chase them down (without swinging), or at times they do exactly what you first described but in the middle of the combinations backpedal and backpedal.

I half agree with you (and have the entire time), I just don't get why you can't also see them running as well. I agree that they do what you say they do, but they also do alot of what I say they do.

Yea, but whats wrong with running here and there if they are getting the better of the exchanges and winning rounds, and ultimately, winning fights?
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Old 05-05-2009, 12:06 PM   #29
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Default Re: Pernell Whitaker >>>Manny Pacquaio

Pernell didn't run at all. You can't expect boxers to fight as if they're in a phone booth. This aint the Rocky movies. An example of someone running would be Cory Spinks vs Jermaine Taylor a couple years ago.
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Old 05-05-2009, 12:25 PM   #30
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Default Re: Pernell Whitaker >>>Manny Pacquaio

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarik One
Pernell didn't run at all. You can't expect boxers to fight as if they're in a phone booth. This aint the Rocky movies. An example of someone running would be Cory Spinks vs Jermaine Taylor a couple years ago.

I HATE Spinks. Remember when he started crying after he got murked a few years ago?
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