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Old 10-09-2006, 07:09 AM   #16
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On no somebody stop him, Nazr Mohhamed is unstoppable, yea right, he had a declining year of only 6.2 points per game last season and the only stat that considerably improved was his free throw percentage, it was the second time in his eight years he had a higher free throw percentage than 76% the rest were alot lower. In every other category it all was worse than usual. Maybe for both players it was a good move to score more points. A lot of people are overrating Nazr Mohammed to make Ben Wallace look that much worse. When in fact, Ben is a good player in which many teams would want him. This year I believe he will play good in Chicago.
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Old 10-09-2006, 07:18 AM   #17
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final wrath, why are you so passionate about talking down the bulls? We like hearing from you, but when you post here you seem really determined to prove how over rated the bulls are. Its obvious you hate them, and thats cool cos we all have our teams we hate (mine is the knicks), but I was wondering why? Just out of curiosity.

And what team do you follow I am still curious?

ps, there isnt a problem with offense, if they didnt spread the load so much, Gordon is more than capable of averaging 20 + ppg, I think this yeah he will average 19 or 20. He is a real star.
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Old 10-09-2006, 10:40 AM   #18
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Thabo Sefolosha is a rookie just like Tyrus Thomas, but he's more experienced playing over seas in Europe for a couple of teams. You never know he might be immediately effective on offense when Ben Gordon gets tired in games. Almost every player on the Bulls improves their offensive game from one season to the next. Ben Gordon scores more in games, instead of just the fourth quarter, Andres Nocioni improved his shot last year, especially from long range, and Luol Deng I would say was the biggest improvement offensively last season by creativing unique moves to the basket. Kirk Hinrich will probably step up his role on offense as well, since he's one of the Bulls captains. So, this season the Bulls will be better offensively than others might think.
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Old 10-09-2006, 02:45 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy Style
On no somebody stop him, Nazr Mohhamed is unstoppable...

nazr came off the bench with those 6.2 points. hes not as good as ben wallace overall, im not saying that. but he is a better fit for detroit. he can knock down the occasional jumper and no doubt he is a better offensive player than ben wallace. he will have to be guarded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Internet
final wrath, why are you so passionate about talking down the bulls? We like hearing from you, but when you post here you seem really determined to prove how over rated the bulls are. Its obvious you hate them, and thats cool cos we all have our teams we hate (mine is the knicks), but I was wondering why? Just out of curiosity.

Well this is probably the most heated topic to debate right now. i dont exactly hate them... i am a fan of gordon, hinrich, and ben wallace. i just beleive they are overrated like you said. I think the Pistons are underated. People keep calling them the league's donut because they are sweetness on the outside but have a hole in the middle. But thats just not true. Ben Wallace filled that whole on defense but he created that hole on offense. Tayshaun Prince and Rasheed Wallace are more than capable of scoring in the middle. Like I said, constant double teams hindered them last year and they slowly got more perimeter oriented throughout the year.

Part of me would love to see the Bulls do well next year. They play team ball on offense and determined defense. But I just don't understand how Pax thinks defense is the answer after the rule changes these past two years. IMO a lineup of Hinrich, Gordon, Gay, Nocioni, Przybilla is a lot scarier than the one you have now. But I'm glad Wallace signed with you guys because he really didn't fit Detroit's system.
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Old 10-09-2006, 03:33 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by final.wrath
Um...Detroit had one of the best offenses because they had Chauncey Billups, Rip Hamilton, Rasheed Wallace, and Tayshaun Prince. The offense was still one of one of the best even though they had problems scoring in the paint. Why did they have problems with scoring in the paint? Ben Wallace. Rasheed Wallace and Tayshaun prince were ALWAYS double teamed and often reverted to kicking it out to one of the 4 good shooters, if not hanging around the perimeter themselves. With Ben gone I expect to see Detroit's points in the paint improve now that opponents will have to guard Nazr Mohammed.



Anyone who scores a lot in the post can be considered a post scorer. I never said anything about traditonal or non conventional types of scorers. The plain fact is Ben Wallace is not a good post scorer. That is the only place he can score...but he can't do it well. And comparing your situation with the Phoenix Suns is just ridiculous. They are the best offensive team in the league and Chicago is one of the worst. And you realize Camby and Amare aren't on the same team right?


are you trying to make the case that people who are athletic and finish around the basket are good at scoring in the paint? wow good one. thats as obvious as saying a shape with three sides and a pointy top is a triangle.

thabo is not a post scorer and I highly doubt scrubs like Khryrapa and Adrian Griffen will solve your problem. Tyrus Thomas will take some time to develop.



lay off the haterade? how about you lay off the denial? how about you make better arguments than comparing your team's offense to the Phoenix Suns or Detroit Pistons?

if you don't see that there is a problem with lack of offense in Chicago, specifically post scoring, then you are simply in denial. And I am very secure that my team is better than yours, but that has nothing to do with this argument. I'm not trying to pick apart the Bulls because I'm jealous. I'm disputing that Ben Wallace has made the Bulls one of the top teams in the East like all you blind Chicago fans keep saying. If Ben Wallace went to a team who was secure offensively but needed defensive firepower...I wouldnt have any problems saying he would make that team a whole lot better. But Chicago is a place that needed more scoring, not more defensive help.

I dispute the fact that Chicago will be able to win it like the Larry Brown Pistons used to. It just not possible to win with defense alone because of the ways the rules have changed these past 2 years. The Pistons used to grind it out and shut down the other teams scorers...but if you cant bump a guy like Wade or James without giving up 2 points at the FT line (or an and 1) how in the world can you play gritty grind it out defense? Ben Wallace wants to go back to the good old days where you could play the kind of defense he excells at and his lack of scoring ability could be easily overlooked...but this is the new NBA, and hes still the same old Ben, just a little older.

1. How come all of a sudden detroit is this offensive juggernaut? Throughout the years they have been known as a good defensive team, but a poor offensive team. All of a sudden flip comes in and changes that? Not by much, because they were still in the bottom half of the league in scoring. (by the way, the bulls were 14th in the league in scoring which aint bad, considering that NJ, SA, Memphis, Cleveland, Detroit, Indiana etc all scored less than the bulls last year). Billups and crew still aren't that great of scorers. None of them are "superstars". They may be stars but not superstars. Umm and how come they couldn't do better scoring in the paint even with both wallaces down there? The perimeter oriented bulls still managed to score more points in the post and we had a player worse off offensively than wallace manning the middle. What ever any team would do to the pistsons, they would definitely do it to the bulls considering they had no center or power forward that could score in teh post. Everyone keeps claiming that Nazr is going to be this savior on the offense, but he shot a lower fg% than ben. I don't know if I'd be relying on him too much.

2. Why is it so ludacris to compare this years chicago bulls to the phoenix suns? I was just using them as an example to show that with athleticsm on the team, you don't need a low post scorer to score alot of points in the paint. Marion, Diaw, and Bell's athleticsm helped them to score in the paint even though none of them are really post players. This year we have 6'9 Tyrus, 6'9 Deng (who is in phenomenal shape and improved on his upper body strength), a 6'8/6'9 Kyhrapa, a 6'7 Thabo and a 6'9 wallace who have great athleticsm to score in the paint ala phoenix style. Yes, none of them are post scorers, but neither are marion, diaw or bell. By the way, Chicago is not one of the worst teams in the league offensively, especially not now with their improved athleticsm. Yeah I got the two ex-knicks confused, I meant to say Kurt Thomas instead of Camby.

3. I didn't know that scrubs start for teams that make it to the NBA finals.

4. Who's in denial? I know that the bulls don't have a low post scorer. I know that we have streaky shooters. I know that we won't make it to the finals. I know detroit and miami are better. I know wallace is aging. But I also know that even though we don't have a post scorer, we will have increased post scoring due to the fact that we vastly improved our athleticsm. I do know that gordon has said that he's watched his game and the games of others and realized that he needed to get to the FT line like other players like Wade etc in order to become a more consistent scorer. I do know that he's worked on his shot this summer and worked on taking it to the hole so that he can become more consistent. I also know that skiles has been doing nothing but praising him so far in training camp and has been very impressed with him considering all the negative things that the media likes to point out that skiles says about gordon. I do know that detroit will take a step back with the loss of wallace, and that miami struggled against chicago last year in the playoffs moreso than any other team in the east. That makes me think that the bulls can compete on the level of those two teams and that anything can happen in the playoffs.

5. Most "blind" chicago fans look to ALL of the additions that we have made this year to say that we are significantly improved. Most haters only see the wallace signing and ignore the other additions or try to downplay the additions that we've made to the team. We all know that solely the addition of wallace isn't going to do much. But with all the additions that we have made, along with the improvement of deng, duhon, kirk, noc, and gordon we should be a much better team. Even if we didn't add anyone to our roster this offseason, we would still be a better team based off of the improvements of our core players. So, why is it so hard to beleive that the bulls have actually improved? If they had drawn anyone other than miami or detroit in the first round, they would have at least made it to the 2nd round. With a worse team last year, they were able to hang with the heat, so why can't they do it now?
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Old 10-09-2006, 04:21 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by final.wrath
If PJ Brown is coming off the bench whos the starting PF? Anyway, that old guy still has some game left but hes not going to solve your problem. When all your scoring comes from the outside and your leading scorer only averages 16 ppg a guy like PJ Brown cannot solve your lack of offense.

And its not like Ben had up and down seasons. His numbers have been declining for 3 straight years. Hes 32 years old and thats bound to happen. His peak has come and gone. He still has game left but ihes definately on the downhill slope. His FG% went up last year BECAUSE he didnt shoot (by shots I meat tip ins/layups) the ball as much. When you get fouled your shot doesnt count as a FGA. If we factored in his missed FTA to his FG% he would be shooting around 30%. So when he actually gets the ball you have about a 30% chance of actually getting points on the board.

IMO chicago should have drafted Rudy Gay and still traded Chandler for PJ Brown. That way you would be getting a versatile scorer and defender along with ridding yourself of that nasty Chandler contract. Then you should have signed a cheap center like Przybilla or Nazr Mohammed or traded Deng for a better center. You probably could have gotten Magloire or someone like that.

With your saved cap space you could have A) Traded for Garnett... or B) Resigned all of your core in the future. Instead you are posed to make a do or die run over the next 2 years or so. I mean, after two years Gordon will probably leave and either Nocioni or Deng will be gone for sure.

Nobody seems to be adressing the problem in Chicago. Sure, defense is great and all but with the new rules I keep talking about there is NO WAY you can win with defense alone. You need legitamate scorers and although you have players with the potential to be those legitamate scorers, Skiles runs a Larry Brown-like system that does not encourage a free-flowing offense. Gordon would be putting up at least 20 ppg on most other teams. Wake up and smell the coffee Chicago, this league is about SCORING not DEFENSE.

Now thats funny about Pryzbilla, he was a guy while in Minnesota I said the Bulls should draft, but I don't see Portland letting him go.
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Old 10-09-2006, 11:11 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chifan1798
1. How come all of a sudden detroit is this offensive juggernaut? Throughout the years they have been known as a good defensive team, but a poor offensive team. All of a sudden flip comes in and changes that? Not by much, because they were still in the bottom half of the league in scoring. (by the way, the bulls were 14th in the league in scoring which aint bad, considering that NJ, SA, Memphis, Cleveland, Detroit, Indiana etc all scored less than the bulls last year).

the bulls had a decievingly high ppg stat last year. the only way I can explain that is that they scored more when they played bad teams. Despite their ppg, they only had +.05 average difference of points given up and scored. that was the worst of any team in the playoffs. they also were like .200 when the other team scored 100 or more. that shows they cant keep up in high scoring games. their FG percentage was worse than the pistons too.

And yes having a coach like Larry Brown leave and Flip Saunders come in will drastically change your team. It changed our team from a defensive style team to an offense oriented team. If a game went into the 100's the Pistons were almost sure to win. Dont just look at the ppg stat when judging an offense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chifan1798
Umm and how come they couldn't do better scoring in the paint even with both wallaces down there?


please read my posts more carefully. i've adressed this 3 times now. read:

Quote:
Originally Posted by final.wrath
Why did they have problems with scoring in the paint? Ben Wallace. Rasheed Wallace and Tayshaun prince were ALWAYS double teamed and often reverted to kicking it out to one of the 4 good shooters, if not hanging around the perimeter themselves. With Ben gone I expect to see Detroit's points in the paint improve now that opponents will have to guard Nazr Mohammed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chifan1798
2. Why is it so ludacris to compare this years chicago bulls to the phoenix suns? I was just using them as an example to show that with athleticsm on the team, you don't need a low post scorer to score alot of points in the paint. Marion, Diaw, and Bell's athleticsm helped them to score in the paint even though none of them are really post players. This year we have 6'9 Tyrus, 6'9 Deng (who is in phenomenal shape and improved on his upper body strength), a 6'8/6'9 Kyhrapa, a 6'7 Thabo and a 6'9 wallace who have great athleticsm to score in the paint ala phoenix style.

Its ludacris because the Suns are almost completely focused on offense, and your team is almost completely focused on defense. They are a running team and you are a defensive team. Just not a good comparison. Alot of the scoring in the paint that they do comes off the break...which doesn't happen nearly as much for the Bulls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chifan1798
3. I didn't know that scrubs start for teams that make it to the NBA finals.

they do, they're called role-players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chifan1798
4. Who's in denial? I know that the bulls don't have a low post scorer. I know that we have streaky shooters. I know that we won't make it to the finals. I know detroit and miami are better. I know wallace is aging. But I also know that even though we don't have a post scorer, we will have increased post scoring due to the fact that we vastly improved our athleticsm. I do know that gordon has said that he's watched his game and the games of others and realized that he needed to get to the FT line like other players like Wade etc in order to become a more consistent scorer. I do know that he's worked on his shot this summer and worked on taking it to the hole so that he can become more consistent. I also know that skiles has been doing nothing but praising him so far in training camp and has been very impressed with him considering all the negative things that the media likes to point out that skiles says about gordon. I do know that detroit will take a step back with the loss of wallace, and that miami struggled against chicago last year in the playoffs moreso than any other team in the east. That makes me think that the bulls can compete on the level of those two teams and that anything can happen in the playoffs.

beating a team in six games isn't struggling.

detroit will get better without wallace.

ben gordon says negetive things about his role on the team...and skiles says he doesnt like ben's defense. but thats in the past we'll see.

post scoring isnt the same as scoring in the paint. dwayne wade scores in the paint, shaq scores in the post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chifan1798
5. Most "blind" chicago fans look to ALL of the additions that we have made this year to say that we are significantly improved. Most haters only see the wallace signing and ignore the other additions or try to downplay the additions that we've made to the team. We all know that solely the addition of wallace isn't going to do much. But with all the additions that we have made, along with the improvement of deng, duhon, kirk, noc, and gordon we should be a much better team. Even if we didn't add anyone to our roster this offseason, we would still be a better team based off of the improvements of our core players. So, why is it so hard to beleive that the bulls have actually improved? If they had drawn anyone other than miami or detroit in the first round, they would have at least made it to the 2nd round. With a worse team last year, they were able to hang with the heat, so why can't they do it now?

i never said the bulls didn't improve. i said they're overrated. i think you should have kept the cap space to resign your young players. the ben wallace signing means two of your good players will leave.
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Old 10-10-2006, 07:55 AM   #23
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Thats not true, if the Bulls want to avoid the luxary tax, then one of their young players will probably have to go, not 2 of them.

Wallace has a four year deal, he will still be more than serviceable for the next 3 years, and its not going to be hard to deal him in that 4th year if we have too. So what im saying is His contract is not going to hurt the future of the Bulls, thats why Pax gave him 4 years and not 5. Trust me, John knows what he is doing he is an excellent GM.
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Old 10-10-2006, 09:43 AM   #24
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kaw
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Old 10-10-2006, 11:23 AM   #25
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final wrath eats boo boo
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Old 10-10-2006, 07:58 PM   #26
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Thats not true, if the Bulls want to avoid the luxary tax, then one of their young players will probably have to go, not 2 of them.

Wallace has a four year deal, he will still be more than serviceable for the next 3 years, and its not going to be hard to deal him in that 4th year if we have too. So what im saying is His contract is not going to hurt the future of the Bulls, thats why Pax gave him 4 years and not 5. Trust me, John knows what he is doing he is an excellent GM.

actually he has a trade restriction on his contract so it would be extremely hard to find a team he would be willing to waive it for AND that would be willing to take on his bad contract. Noicioni or Deng will leave and I'm guessing Ben Gordon will too. Ben would fetch at least 10 mil if not the max. Deng and Nocioni would probably both want around 8 mil depending on how next season goes. It's possible Ben would stay but its no secret hes clashed with Skiles throghout his stay.
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Old 10-10-2006, 08:28 PM   #27
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kaw

Kaw?
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Old 10-11-2006, 12:27 AM   #28
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you do eat boo boo final wrath.
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Old 10-11-2006, 12:28 AM   #29
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And pls tell us your team now?? you sound like a knick, in which case you suck.
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Old 10-11-2006, 01:20 AM   #30
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And pls tell us your team now?? you sound like a knick, in which case you suck.

pistons
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