Starring:
Myself, Toni, B4ball, Tool, DJMason, Jballer and anyone else who agrees with us.
And i'm talking currently..
Yes, the numbers don't suggest it as of yet, but think about it, what can Bosh do that Bargnani can't.
Bargnani is:
A better shooter
A better back to the basket player
Stronger
Tougher
Better shot blocker
Solid inside/outside threat
More clutch
Yeah Bargs might not be able to grab 10 boards (yet) but I think he would peak at about 8, which is not too much of a drop off. And given the right amount of playing time and touches, he could definitely average more than Bosh's 22/game. So he's actually better than Bosh in scoring, defense, shot blocking... with Bosh only holding the edge in rebounds. However, I would call those "soft" rebounds. So in "man" rebounds, Bargnani has him beat there too.
So who do you wanna build your franchise around.
The dinosaur from the land before time?
Starring:
Myself, Toni, B4ball, Tool, DJMason, Jballer and anyone else who agrees with us.
And i'm talking currently..
Yes, the numbers don't suggest it as of yet, but think about it, what can Bosh do that Bargnani can't.
Bargnani is:
A better shooter
A better back to the basket player
Stronger
Tougher
Better shot blocker
Solid inside/outside threat
More clutch
Yeah Bargs might not be able to grab 10 boards (yet) but I think he would peak at about 8, which is not too much of a drop off. And given the right amount of playing time and touches, he could definitely average more than Bosh's 22/game. So he's actually better than Bosh in scoring, defense, shot blocking... with Bosh only holding the edge in rebounds. However, I would call those "soft" rebounds. So in "man" rebounds, Bargnani has him beat there too.
So who do you wanna build your franchise around.
The dinosaur from the land before time?
Or the Magician, Mr. Andrea BEASTnani.
I'll take Beastnani any day of the week.
Love Bargs, don't get me wrong, but I'll take the guy who's only a couple years older and has been to 4 all star games, and has been a pivotal piece on a gold medal winning Olympic team full of other all stars over a guy who's put it together consistently for the first time in his career over 3/4 of a season.
Again, Love Bargs and am excited to see where his game could go, but you're gonna lose this argument.
Edit: Here are some stats/thoughts:
Also, Some stats/thoughts:
Regarding being a better shooter, Bargs is only better from 3.
Bosh FG% in 2008/09: 49%
Bargs FG% 2008/09: 45%
(take out those 3s and that disparity grows)
Back to the basket... maybe.
Stronger - sure, though anything on that is anecdotal.
Tougher - subjective. Bosh shoots more FT's than Bargs, which tells me he goes to the bucket more and takes more contact.
Better Shot Blocker:
Bargs: 1.2 bpg in 2008/09
Bosh: 1.0 Bpg in 2008/09
Neglible difference
Inside/outside threat
Both can go at the basket, Bosh with more frequency, and Bosh has a better mid range jumper, Bargs is better from deep.
Defense:
Bosh Opponent PER @ PF: 16.5, @ C:20.0
Bargs Opponent PER @PF: 17.7 @ C: 21.8
Advantage Bosh in both categories.
Last edited by RaininThrees : 06-05-2009 at 11:20 PM.
Wow, just wow.... I'm not to comfortable with Bargs being the franchise player, even Jack Armstrong said he isnt the player you build a team around.
Raptors fans like you are stooping too low, at least trade Bosh for someone with the equal skill level.
and btw bargs doesnt have a better post game than bosh
Does it really matter who the better shooter, post game, tougher or whatever is? Fact is that Bosh is a better offensive and defensive player and a better rebounder. The #'s show it and so do my eyes. Break it down into all the sub-categories you want, it doesn't really matter when Bosh still ends up being more productive on both ends.
Chances are Bargnani will never be as good as Bosh. Bosh in his 3rd year in the league as a 21 year old put up a PER of 23.2. Bargnani in his 3rd year as a 23 year old put up a PER of 14.6. He's not even close to the development curve of Bosh.
Bosh is not a franchise player but there may not even be 10 of those in the NBA. He is the closest thing the Raptors have to one. Bargnani is a complementary player you might surround a star with. Not the other way around. Sadly there are probably 5 people in the world who think otherwise and 2 of them basically run the Raptors.
I don't get all this hate for Bosh. Clearly all he does is want to win. Is their anything bad with that? If he can't win then he leaves. Well maybe we should win. We still need to add a couple of pieces to make are team better and it can be done.
Starring:
Myself, Toni, B4ball, Tool, DJMason, Jballer and anyone else who agrees with us.
And i'm talking currently..
Yes, the numbers don't suggest it as of yet, but think about it, what can Bosh do that Bargnani can't.
Bargnani is:
A better shooter
A better back to the basket player
Stronger
Tougher
Better shot blocker
Solid inside/outside threat
More clutch
Yeah Bargs might not be able to grab 10 boards (yet) but I think he would peak at about 8, which is not too much of a drop off. And given the right amount of playing time and touches, he could definitely average more than Bosh's 22/game. So he's actually better than Bosh in scoring, defense, shot blocking... with Bosh only holding the edge in rebounds. However, I would call those "soft" rebounds. So in "man" rebounds, Bargnani has him beat there too.
So who do you wanna build your franchise around.
The dinosaur from the land before time?
Or the Magician, Mr. Andrea BEASTnani.
I'll take Beastnani any day of the week.
1) Barganni has no back to the basket game he tries to use the jumper when hes backing down but he can't.
2) You put a 3 on Barganni and hes dead because he can't shoot the 3 and can't drive so he tries to back down and use the fade away.
3) We were the worst rebounding team. Barganni got 6 a game when he was starting so their is no way in h*** that he gets any "beast" boards CB4 is clearly our best rebounder. Barganni was nowhere close to consistent on the boards
4) Barganni was never clutch and was never meant to be a go to guy.
Fact is Bosh is so productive 'cause he is the go to guy for the Raps.
Give Bargnani the same role, the same minutes, the same touches and he will be just as productive, if not more.
Bosh is way overrated bu the Raptors fans, because we were diying to find someone who made us forget about VC, but we've got to face it, Bosh isn't anywhere near what VC was.
Therefor.
I may agree that Bosh has a slight edge on Bargnani at the current moment, but Bargnani is improving every year, while Bosh already hit his cealing.
That slight edge doesn't justify a max contract by any means, Bargnani would sign for cheaper and provide the exact same things that Bosh provide right now: scoring in bunches (better range, worst rebounding).
Plus, Bargnani could still develop in a franchise player, if he keep up the pace of his improvements, while Bosh has already prove he's never gonna be one.
Raptors fans keep talking about winning, there isn't a single team who won something without having a franchise player on their roster, so keeping Bosh is quite useless for winning's sake.
Does it really matter who the better shooter, post game, tougher or whatever is? Fact is that Bosh is a better offensive and defensive player and a better rebounder. The #'s show it and so do my eyes. Break it down into all the sub-categories you want, it doesn't really matter when Bosh still ends up being more productive on both ends.
Chances are Bargnani will never be as good as Bosh. Bosh in his 3rd year in the league as a 21 year old put up a PER of 23.2. Bargnani in his 3rd year as a 23 year old put up a PER of 14.6. He's not even close to the development curve of Bosh.
Bosh is not a franchise player but there may not even be 10 of those in the NBA. He is the closest thing the Raptors have to one. Bargnani is a complementary player you might surround a star with. Not the other way around. Sadly there are probably 5 people in the world who think otherwise and 2 of them basically run the Raptors.
You are correct to say that there isn't a quantifiable way for me to demonstrate that Bargnani is the better player. However, it's also not a fair method to compare each at their stage of development and compare the "learning curve." Bosh was given the keys to this franchise very shortly after his arrival and was already the "go-to" guy by year 3. Bargnani as the go-to guy would probably be a more prolific scorer (as we've already seen several outbursts this season), would have room for a couple of more rebounds a game than what he gets now (and yes Bosh grabs 10, but I don't think anyone would call him a good rebounder).. and would probably even learn to be a better passer. So, i'd almost call it a given that Bargnani won't be putting up Bosh type of numbers until/unless Bosh gets traded. But if I was choosing out of these 2 who i'd build a franchise around, it's Il Mago by a mile.
I certainly am not a fan of Bosh, but I have never in my life argued that Bargnani is better than Bosh. Unlike Q I think there's a possibility that he could end up better than Bosh, but there is as of yet no concrete evidence that he will be. If this team wants a true franchise player they are not going to find him from within at the moment.
I am actually suprised at the reasoned posts given in response to this blatant attempt at trolling. Props for the effort, but it will be futile.
Unlike Q I think there's a possibility that he could end up better than Bosh
I think it's possible too. I just don't think it's very likely.
Lots of things are possible. It's possible Joey Graham could become an All-Star but past evidence leads us to believe otherwise. I'm not one who holds out hope for long shots. Based on everything we've seen from Bosh's and Bargnani's careers, I don't think it's likely that Bargnani will ever be as productive as Bosh.
If you were forced to bet all the money you have on Bargnani being better than Bosh, would you? I'm sure we all hope he can be since it seems like he is here to stay for many years but if it's a 30-70 thing of him being better than Bosh, I'm not gonna bank on the 30%.
The *Official* Bargnani vs. Bosh thread...
