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Old 06-04-2009, 07:28 PM   #1
jrong
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Default So Kobe gets his 4th, he's the PRESUMPTIVE #1. If not, fanboys argue for another year

(I realize over half the board is cringing at another thread like this, but I think this is a worthy topic of discussion....)

Because I honestly believe that almost everyone-- including Laker fans/ Kobe stans across the world, including those Laker fans/ Kobe stans in the media, not to mention neutral observers-- were prepared to concede that James was the undisputed best player on earth, if he came away with the hardware this year.

(And, yes, this includes the h-a-t-e-r-s like, yours truly....)

But, it didn't work out that way. So, my question is are Cavalier fans/ LeBron stans (as well as neutral observers) prepared to concede the distinction to Kobe if he walks out with the trophy this year? Because it seems only fair that y'all should reciprocate....

Because this is the way it has always worked when it comes to comparing/ ranking players who are at a comparable level. (In other words, nobody was willing to call Paul Pierce the best player in the world when he won Finals MVP, except... Paul Pierce.)

But, between your Jordans and Magics and Birds or your Olajuwons and Robinsons, it has, as far as I'm aware, always been held as an article of faith among fans that the last man standing, or at least the one holding up the trophy at the end, is recognized as, for that monent, the best one. So will Cavalier fans/ LeBron stans (and neutral parties) man up if it's Kobe standing on the pedestal in a couple weeks or so?

* I should also explain what I mean by the "PRESUMPTIVE #1". In other words, the player that gets the benefit of the doubt that he's the best until it's incontestably proven that he no longer is.

To me, Kobe has held this distinction since about 05 - 06, although he has felt the hot breath of James and one or two others on his neck. He's earned the benefit of the doubt, in my view, although I know this is savagely debated.

Winning the championship this year was James's chance to take the belt and become the undisputed title-holder. But, it didn't happen.

So, as I see it, if Kobe gets his ring this year, he should be UNIVERSALLY recognized/ acknowledged. If not the homers on the Internet, and in the press, can continue to fight the matter out for another year.


(I can make this observation and stipulation objectively because I'm a fan of neither of these players. I'm just waiting until next season when Wade leads the 2010 Miami Heat to the championship and takes the title from BOTH of them!)
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Old 06-04-2009, 07:31 PM   #2
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Default Re: So Kobe gets his 4th, he's the PRESUMPTIVE #1. If not, fanboys argue for another

I can count at least ten threads with Kobe in the title on the front page right now. Hasn't this been done to death? I don't hate the guy, and I definitely think he's interesting, but there are other things to talk about, and it seems like all of the interesting threads are being pushed to page two by the Kobe stuff.
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Old 06-04-2009, 07:40 PM   #3
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Default Re: So Kobe gets his 4th, he's the PRESUMPTIVE #1. If not, fanboys argue for another year

No chance will he still be considered the best player, you win a championship as a team, not as an individual.
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Old 06-04-2009, 07:41 PM   #4
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Default Re: So Kobe gets his 4th, he's the PRESUMPTIVE #1. If not, fanboys argue for another year

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrong
(I realize over half the board is cringing at another thread like this, but I think this is a worthy topic of discussion....)

Because I honestly believe that almost everyone-- including Laker fans/ Kobe stans across the world, including those Laker fans/ Kobe stans in the media, not to mention neutral observers-- were prepared to concede that James was the undisputed best player on earth, if he came away with the hardware this year.

(And, yes, this includes the h-a-t-e-r-s like, yours truly....)

But, it didn't work out that way. So, my question is are Cavalier fans/ LeBron stans (as well as neutral observers) prepared to concede the distinction to Kobe if he walks out with the trophy this year? Because it seems only fair that y'all should reciprocate....

Because this is the way it has always worked when it comes to comparing/ ranking players who are at a comparable level. (In other words, nobody was willing to call Paul Pierce the best player in the world when he won Finals MVP, except... Paul Pierce.)

But, between your Jordans and Magics and Birds or your Olajuwons and Robinsons, it has, as far as I'm aware, always been held as an article of faith among fans that the last man standing, or at least the one holding up the trophy at the end, is recognized as, for that monent, the best one. So will Cavalier fans/ LeBron stans (and neutral parties) man up if it's Kobe standing on the pedestal in a couple weeks or so?

* I should also explain what I mean by the "PRESUMPTIVE #1". In other words, the player that gets the benefit of the doubt that he's the best until it's incontestably proven that he no longer is.

To me, Kobe has held this distinction since about 05 - 06, although he has felt the hot breath of James and one or two others on his neck. He's earned the benefit of the doubt, in my view, although I know this is savagely debated.

Winning the championship this year was James's chance to take the belt and become the undisputed title-holder. But, it didn't happen.

So, as I see it, if Kobe gets his ring this year, he should be UNIVERSALLY recognized/ acknowledged. If not the homers on the Internet, and in the press, can continue to fight the matter out for another year.


(I can make this observation and stipulation objectively because I'm a fan of neither of these players. I'm just waiting until next season when Wade leads the 2010 Miami Heat to the championship and takes the title from BOTH of them!)


IS PIERCE THE BEST? NO.. Why should anyone concede anything? Every person in the media including Jerry West, Magic, Reggie Miller, Chuck, and THE JET have said that the lakers have the best team.. Reggie also stated, that if Lebron had THE talent KOBE HAS AROUND HIM, he would not lose a game... I do not agree with that either. Why does Lebron have to win a title to prove he is the best? Kobe has not won a title and he was still considered the best..
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Old 06-04-2009, 07:41 PM   #5
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Default Re: So Kobe gets his 4th, he's the PRESUMPTIVE #1. If not, fanboys argue for another year

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilgodfather1
No chance will he still be considered the best player, you win a championship as a team, not as an individual.

Most people still consider him the best...
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Old 06-04-2009, 07:43 PM   #6
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Default Re: So Kobe gets his 4th, he's the PRESUMPTIVE #1. If not, fanboys argue for another

Quote:
Originally Posted by GiveItToBurrito
I can count at least ten threads with Kobe in the title on the front page right now. Hasn't this been done to death? I don't hate the guy, and I definitely think he's interesting, but there are other things to talk about, and it seems like all of the interesting threads are being pushed to page two by the Kobe stuff.

True, but I'm coming at it from a different slant. It's not a Kobe vs. Bron thread per say (although I'm sure it will turn into one). It's about that standards fan use to compare players, and whether they can come to any mutually agreed upon ground with regards to those standards.

Or, in other words, my post is really fan-centered, rather than player-centered....
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Old 06-04-2009, 07:44 PM   #7
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Default Re: So Kobe gets his 4th, he's the PRESUMPTIVE #1. If not, fanboys argue for another year

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twiens
Most people still consider him the best...
Not true, most Kobe stans still think he is the best, but unbiased basketball fans think that James and Wade have both passed him.
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Old 06-04-2009, 07:49 PM   #8
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Default Re: So Kobe gets his 4th, he's the PRESUMPTIVE #1. If not, fanboys argue for another year

http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2...op-of-his-game

Kobe Bryant: At the Top of His Game(vs lebron)

Quote:

Throughout the Conference Finals and even now that they are over the general consensus has been that Kobe Bryant has been "not bad," and LeBron James has been incredible. Clearly, Bryant's performance by itself should be regarded as truly incredible. But beyond that, the disparity in how Bryant and James were seen in their respective Conference Finals series demonstrates the different predispositions with which people evaluate each player.

Consider the following:

* LeBron, a (very big) small forward whose primary advantage over Kobe is his supposedly unstoppable ability to get to the rim, shot 48.7% from the field, nearly identical to Kobe's 48.1% from the field.
* LeBron's True Shooting Percentage was a very solid 59.1% for the series, but Kobe's was an incredible 62.7%.
* LeBron took more three-pointers than Kobe did, but while Kobe made his at a respectable rate of 34.4%, LeBron shot a miserable 29.7% from distance.
* LeBron took more free throws than Kobe did, but he hit only 74.5% of them, whereas Kobe hit 93.1% of his. (Important: In the fourth quarter of Game 3, LeBron missed 5 free throws that may have cost him the game. More on this later.)
* LeBron turned the ball over 4.17 times per game; Kobe only turned the ball over 2.17 times per game. (Important: In the fourth quarter and overtime of Game 4, LeBron committed 7 turnovers that may have cost him the game. More on this later.)
* LeBron scored 4.5 points more than Kobe during the Conference Finals, but he needed 4 extra shots per game to do so (and 5.3 extra shooting possessions, when shot attempts that result in free throws are accounted for).

Considering all of the above, it baffles me that the talking heads continue to underrate Kobe Bryant's performance in the Conference Finals, while ranting and raving to no end about LeBron James' brilliance.
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Old 06-04-2009, 07:51 PM   #9
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Default Re: So Kobe gets his 4th, he's the PRESUMPTIVE #1. If not, fanboys argue for another year

Quote:
IS PIERCE THE BEST? NO..

If you read my whole post I addressed the difference between what it meant for Pierce to win Finals MVP and what it would mean for Kobe to win it....

Anyway, you might as well adjust yourself to the reality, whether you accept it or not, that public perception at large will be that Kobe is the best if he wins in this series. Because the majority of the casual sports fan world was going to "crown" either Kobe or Bron, whichever one was left standing in the end, regardless....

Last edited by jrong : 06-04-2009 at 07:53 PM.
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Old 06-04-2009, 07:51 PM   #10
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Default Re: So Kobe gets his 4th, he's the PRESUMPTIVE #1. If not, fanboys argue for another year

We should just rename the site to insidekobeandlebron.com.
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Old 06-04-2009, 07:55 PM   #11
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Default Re: So Kobe gets his 4th, he's the PRESUMPTIVE #1. If not, fanboys argue for another

Quote:
Originally Posted by GiveItToBurrito
I can count at least ten threads with Kobe in the title on the front page right now. Hasn't this been done to death? I don't hate the guy, and I definitely think he's interesting, but there are other things to talk about, and it seems like all of the interesting threads are being pushed to page two by the Kobe stuff.

There's 9 with Kobe's name in the title, and another 4 about Magic/Lakers series.
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Old 06-04-2009, 08:12 PM   #12
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Default Re: So Kobe gets his 4th, he's the PRESUMPTIVE #1. If not, fanboys argue for another year

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilgodfather1
No chance will he still be considered the best player, you win a championship as a team, not as an individual.

So...Players are still rated by Championships and Finals MVP's...I doubt MJ would be called...THE GOAT if he never won a chip...Kobe/LeBron has been a heated debate throughout the year..If one guy finishes on top while the other didn't, there's nothin wrong with ppl using it to help their case...You play to Win the Game..
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Old 06-04-2009, 08:12 PM   #13
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Default Re: So Kobe gets his 4th, he's the PRESUMPTIVE #1. If not, fanboys argue for another year

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrong
If you read my whole post I addressed the difference between what it meant for Pierce to win Finals MVP and what it would mean for Kobe to win it....

Anyway, you might as well adjust yourself to the reality, whether you accept it or not, that public perception at large will be that Kobe is the best if he wins in this series. Because the majority of the casual sports fan world was going to "crown" either Kobe or Bron, whichever one was left standing in the end, regardless....


Kobe is great.. If some think he is the best than that is fine.. He is great and he is top three no doubt.. I think Lebron is the most dominant.. Kobe is the most skilled.. Wade would be better than both in my mind if he had more talent around him...
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Old 06-04-2009, 08:18 PM   #14
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Default Re: So Kobe gets his 4th, he's the PRESUMPTIVE #1. If not, fanboys argue for another year

No, lebron avg nearly a triple double with 40 pts in a series that everyone on his side, including the coach seemed determined to lose, and they still did great. So no, i don't see how Kobe, with his better team, gets a definitive no argument #1 regardless of the outcome.
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Old 06-04-2009, 08:32 PM   #15
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Default Re: So Kobe gets his 4th, he's the PRESUMPTIVE #1. If not, fanboys argue for another year

Quote:
Originally Posted by LakersLaLaLand
http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2...op-of-his-game

Kobe Bryant: At the Top of His Game(vs lebron)


Didn't Dirk put up similar numbers vs Denver... I may be wrong..
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