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Old 06-11-2009, 08:24 AM   #1
lakerfreak
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Default If Phil Jackson is overrated, so is Pat Riley

People on this board make a big deal about the Phil Jackson-coached teams saying that they were stacked and they turn around and praise a Pat Riley a lot more when he himself has had his share of stacked teams.

As the head coach of the lakers, he won 4 championships with teams that included Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, James Worthy, and many other great role players to be noted. Im not sure if worthy was a top 50 greatest of all time player, but Magic and Kareem certainly were.

Then Riley went to the Heat where he was fortunate enough to have a D-Wade in his prime as well as a Shaquille O'Neal who was still very much effective (although he wasn't superman Shaq).

That Miami team also had Antoine Walker, Alonzo Mourning, Gary Payton, and others serving as your role players. Very talented roster indeed.

There is also a pattern I have noticed here. Everytime these teams begin to regress, Pat Riley quits on these teams and retires and only seems to be healthy enough to coach when they start getting good again.

In Phil Jackson's defense, he came in and coached a mediocre lakers team to two playoff appearances where they ALMOST upset the suns in the first year. Those years, Smush Parker was your starting point guard and Kwame Brown was your starting center and he got them both to play at a good enough level to make the playoffs.

I can't remember when Pat Riley stuck with a garbage team until they started winning.

So Alonzo Mourning, next time you want to call out Phil, you should probably call out your own coach as well who keeps quitting.
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Old 06-11-2009, 08:26 AM   #2
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Default Re: If Phil Jackson is overrated, so is Pat Riley

I agree... I think they are both pretty over rated. Thats not to say they both are not great coaches. You can be both great and over rated at the same time easily.
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Old 06-11-2009, 08:35 AM   #3
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Default Re: If Phil Jackson is overrated, so is Pat Riley

Quote:
Originally Posted by indiefan23
I agree... I think they are both pretty over rated. Thats not to say they both are not great coaches. You can be both great and over rated at the same time easily.

I guess I see your point there but people take credit away from every single championship won by all these coaches.

Every legend coach has had top 50 players.

Sloan had Karl Malone AND Stockton and still couldn't win a championship against the stacked bulls.

The only coach I can think of that has gotten the job done without too many superstars is Gregg Poppovich and he has Tim Duncan who is the greatest PF of all time. Parker is not a top 50 greatest, but Gregg gives him a lot of freedom and knows how to keep all of his players happy. He did also have a Stephen Jackson in his prime and David Robinson who served as a great sidekick to Tim Duncan at that stage of his career.
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Old 06-11-2009, 08:56 AM   #4
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Default Re: If Phil Jackson is overrated, so is Pat Riley

I can't pass on this conversation.. I think Phil gets credit for doing much of nothing. His assist coaches and the master of the traingle deserve the bulk of his credit. However Phil and Pat probably should be looked at as having the most talented TEAMS/Players in NBA history...

Both are overrated in my book and the only difference between the both is Phil plays mind game and Pat gives out grades to his players during practice.

D-Wade
Shaq
Kobe
Magic
Worthy
Kareen
Jordan
Scottie
and the list goes on. Anybody with a little coaching skills could have won championships with these players. Both will be remember as GREAT coaches...

Last edited by LA.MJ&KB#1 : 06-11-2009 at 08:58 AM.
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Old 06-11-2009, 09:03 AM   #5
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Default Re: If Phil Jackson is overrated, so is Pat Riley

Chuck Daly and Rick Adelman >>>>>>>>>> Phil and Riley

Last edited by Bigsmoke : 06-11-2009 at 09:07 AM.
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Old 06-11-2009, 09:47 AM   #6
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Default Re: If Phil Jackson is overrated, so is Pat Riley

who do you think are the most underrated coaches in the NBA?
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Old 06-11-2009, 09:48 AM   #7
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Default Re: If Phil Jackson is overrated, so is Pat Riley

It would have been interesting, if the MJ-led Bulls were in the West, to see Phil vs. Pat a boatload of times vs. his good Knicks and Heat(and if Zo hadn't have had kidney failure or w/e) teams in the Finals imo.

I think they are both overrated a bit. I'm not even a Phil fan but you have to give him credit for how long and consistent he has been good, along with being pretty much the only coach to run the triangle. I think also Pat's style leads to burnout, among himself and his players, which is pretty documented.
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Old 06-11-2009, 10:20 AM   #8
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Default Re: If Phil Jackson is overrated, so is Pat Riley

People overlook some of the little things Phil does as well.
The way he gets his players to respond after a bad game. The way he calls players out where they don't end up turning it in, but rather they improve vastly.

There is one thing about Phil that I have not seen in other coaches and that is he has the most unique personality out of any of these coaches.

Coaches like to yell and panick, he sits down and lets the players figure out how to gain momentum back before he calls a timeout.

It seems to me that he prepares them mentally better than any other coach as his teams always have very good road records.
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Old 06-11-2009, 10:23 AM   #9
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Default Re: If Phil Jackson is overrated, so is Pat Riley

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slam13
who do you think are the most underrated coaches in the NBA?

I honestly cannot think of any. I was going to say Gregg P but he has a few COTY awards so I can't say he isn't being rewarded.

Jerry Sloan is also a little underrated in a sense where he is never talked about. I don't even know how many COTY awards he has.

Phil Jackson also deserves more COTY awards.

Every coach is underrated and overrated in some aspects.
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Old 06-11-2009, 10:25 AM   #10
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Default Re: If Phil Jackson is overrated, so is Pat Riley

If you're going to use that Miami Heat team as an excuse, it won't work for you. Particularly when the second highest scorer on their team scored 13ppg on 35% shooting (Walker). I'd hardly call that stacked.
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Old 06-11-2009, 11:06 AM   #11
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Default Re: If Phil Jackson is overrated, so is Pat Riley

Quote:
Originally Posted by plowking
If you're going to use that Miami Heat team as an excuse, it won't work for you. Particularly when the second highest scorer on their team scored 13ppg on 35% shooting (Walker). I'd hardly call that stacked.



The argument you're making is supporting dwyane wade as a player.

I am arguing that the coach is a bit overrated here so player statistics really doesn't do anything here.

Aside from Wade having a huge series, every single player on that team contributed...whether it was Jayson Williams dishing the ball, everyone hitting their threes, the big men blocking their shots as well as scoring a few times here and there....that team was very talented and many other coaches that had coached that team would have won the title that year.

Besides your stat you provided either doesn't look accurate or is very misleading. Shaq had big games that series, as well as williams and Posey.
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Old 06-11-2009, 11:11 AM   #12
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Default Re: If Phil Jackson is overrated, so is Pat Riley

Jerry Sloan never won a COTY. To me, COTY goes to the guy who does a lot better than expected. Jerry Sloan is just consistently good.

Could it be Pat Riley and Phil Jackson who coached great players to become the GREATEST players? Who knows? Without Phil Jackson, Shaq would still be dominant but would be mentioned in the same breath as David Robinson. Maybe Jordan / Kobe would be mentioned with the Allen Iversons of the world.

I imagine Phil and Pat's strength in coaching lies in working with superstars and their egos. Many great players have fallen short of championships for reasons they or their coach could control.

Can you imagine how scary good Shaq or Barkley could have been with Kobe work ethic?
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Old 06-11-2009, 11:15 AM   #13
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Default Re: If Phil Jackson is overrated, so is Pat Riley

Quote:
Originally Posted by wellington300
Jerry Sloan never won a COTY. To me, COTY goes to the guy who does a lot better than expected. Jerry Sloan is just consistently good.

Could it be Pat Riley and Phil Jackson who coached great players to become the GREATEST players? Who knows? Without Phil Jackson, Shaq would still be dominant but would be mentioned in the same breath as David Robinson. Maybe Jordan / Kobe would be mentioned with the Allen Iversons of the world.

I imagine Phil and Pat's strength in coaching lies in working with superstars and their egos. Many great players have fallen short of championships for reasons they or their coach could control.

Can you imagine how scary good Shaq or Barkley could have been with Kobe work ethic?

Top 10 players obviously, but a great coach would certainly help that cause.
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Old 06-11-2009, 11:25 AM   #14
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Default Re: If Phil Jackson is overrated, so is Pat Riley

look at the championship coaches of the past 10 years:

Phil Jackson
Pat Riley
Larry Brown
Doc Rivers
Pop

Except for Doc those are all time great coaches. Yes they had great squads, but so did some other coaches each year (Larry Brown's Pistons lacked a true superstar, but they were stacked, one of my favorite teams ever).
When you have great players it doenst mean you have a great team. Phil Jackson and Pat Riley know how to get their guys motivated and playing in a system. You could say that coaching overall is overrated, but these guys are the best at what they do. Good thread
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Old 06-11-2009, 11:31 AM   #15
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Default Re: If Phil Jackson is overrated, so is Pat Riley

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toizumi
look at the championship coaches of the past 10 years:

Phil Jackson
Pat Riley
Larry Brown
Doc Rivers
Pop

Except for Doc those are all time great coaches. Yes they had great squads, but so did some other coaches each year (Larry Brown's Pistons lacked a true superstar, but they were stacked, one of my favorite teams ever).
When you have great players it doenst mean you have a great team. Phil Jackson and Pat Riley know how to get their guys motivated and playing in a system. You could say that coaching overall is overrated, but these guys are the best at what they do. Good thread

Agreed,

I made this thread because people are kind of chuckling about Phil getting his 10th ring if he does get it and so many people are waiting for it so they can call him the most overrated coach of all time or whatever.

I really don't think Pat Riley is overrated, but Im just making a point in saying that Phil isn't the only one with stacked teams.
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