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Old 08-01-2009, 02:52 PM   #31
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Default Re: One more trade to solidify the backcourt

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Originally Posted by picc84
Wth? Billups and Kidd havent been good defenders since 2005.

Hinrich in the Boston series guarded Rondo, Allen, and Pierce and sometimes frontcourt players. He may not be the best defensive guard in the NBA but he's the best defensive point guard and its not even close. I'm actually amazed at everyone quoting me in amazement. Have people not been watching Bulls games?

I thought about your last line, if Lakers fans have seen enough Bulls games, and if they did, do they particularly watch a player's ability to defend like that of Kirk. Some fans have been amazed at Ariza's "superb" defense, noting his great anticipation in intercepting passes, or CP3'S no. of steals per game etc. We gasp in amazement as we witnessed Tayshaun Prince leaping like a panther to block Reggie Millers breakaway layup but what most of us yawn and don't see is one's players ability to stay in front of the player he is guarding because.... it is boring and it lacked the flare. oh well.
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Old 08-01-2009, 06:31 PM   #32
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Default Re: One more trade to solidify the backcourt

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Originally Posted by kkinchen
Shannon Brown is going to be the best defensive pg in the league soon.

Well, if Brown wants to be the best defensive PG in the NBA next year he'll have to improve a lot. Honestly, he wasn't much of a defender last season. He was better than anything else on the Lakers roster, but players still blew by him. Effort does not equal efficiency.
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Old 08-01-2009, 07:18 PM   #33
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Default Re: One more trade to solidify the backcourt

This roster is fine as it is.
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Old 08-02-2009, 01:37 AM   #34
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Default Re: One more trade to solidify the backcourt

Hinrich is a good defender, but not a great one. I dont know how dedicated he is to the defensive side since his first inclination is to be an offensive threat.

With that being said, imo he's peaking with his defensive skills. When you say Hinrich, defense is not the first thing that pops out at you. However, if you say Dfish, you still think defense, even at his advanced age.

Let's also remember that at $8.5 mil, he is not a bargain.

Best case scenario for our Laker team is to develop Farmar and Brown, the same way we developed Fisher behind Van Exel.
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Old 08-02-2009, 01:50 AM   #35
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Default Re: One more trade to solidify the backcourt

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Originally Posted by Laker Magic 32
Hinrich is a good defender, but not a great one. I dont know how dedicated he is to the defensive side since his first inclination is to be an offensive threat.

With that being said, imo he's peaking with his defensive skills. When you say Hinrich, defense is not the first thing that pops out at you. However, if you say Dfish, you still think defense, even at his advanced age.

Let's also remember that at $8.5 mil, he is not a bargain.

Best case scenario for our Laker team is to develop Farmar and Brown, the same way we developed Fisher behind Van Exel.

I don't agree with that statement exactly. Defense is not the 1st thing that pops into my head when I hear the name Dfish. He peaked defensively years back and has slowed the past few. And are you trying to say Fish is a better defender than Hinrich? Not saying I am for a trade because I really am not for it, but Hinrich is the better defender
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Old 08-02-2009, 04:10 PM   #36
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Default Re: One more trade to solidify the backcourt

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Originally Posted by ihatetimthomas
I don't agree with that statement exactly. Defense is not the 1st thing that pops into my head when I hear the name Dfish. He peaked defensively years back and has slowed the past few. And are you trying to say Fish is a better defender than Hinrich? Not saying I am for a trade because I really am not for it, but Hinrich is the better defender

Hmmm....well, that's an interesting question, because i feel fish plays better team defense than Hinrich would, but when it comes to on the ball defense i think they're pretty even. Hinrich might not let as many players go by him, but when he does he stops playing defense. With Fish, he'll still get in there and try to rake the ball out. Even then, it seems like our defense isn't predicated on stopping the ball up top, but rather funneling the guards to our twin towers. Wat do you think?

Actually, a better question is who is tougher? Hinrich helped his rep by retaliating against Rondo, but then again, our Bulldog gave a knockout blow to Scola...I'm still picking fish
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Old 08-02-2009, 06:46 PM   #37
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Default Re: One more trade to solidify the backcourt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laker Magic 32
Hinrich is a good defender, but not a great one. I dont know how dedicated he is to the defensive side since his first inclination is to be an offensive threat.

With that being said, imo he's peaking with his defensive skills. When you say Hinrich, defense is not the first thing that pops out at you. However, if you say Dfish, you still think defense, even at his advanced age.

Let's also remember that at $8.5 mil, he is not a bargain.

Best case scenario for our Laker team is to develop Farmar and Brown, the same way we developed Fisher behind Van Exel.

When I think of Derek Fisher, the first thing that pops into my head is a clutch 3 pointer.

I don't think the Lakers can rely on Fisher to provide stability at the point guard position next season. It's sort of forgotten, but Fisher was playing terrible basketball for the last 2-3 months of the season.

The Lakers don't have a lot of trade assets, and I doubt teams want to do the Lakers any favors. Hopefully Farmar and Brown can hold down the point this year.
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Old 08-02-2009, 07:06 PM   #38
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Default Re: One more trade to solidify the backcourt

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Originally Posted by LA_Showtime
Well, if Brown wants to be the best defensive PG in the NBA next year he'll have to improve a lot. Honestly, he wasn't much of a defender last season. He was better than anything else on the Lakers roster, but players still blew by him. Effort does not equal efficiency.

Happens to everyone. Not one player in NBA history has ever succeeded in keeping every single player on every single play out of the lane.

Derek Fisher is a great defender and still got blown by a bunch.
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Old 08-03-2009, 12:37 AM   #39
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Default Re: One more trade to solidify the backcourt

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Originally Posted by hwliuLAP
why do people constantly underrate Fisher?

I've said this during the playoffs, and I'll say it again, we need Fisher more than people imagine. What Fish brings is great leadership but more importantly a very very smart player. He's a smart player in the way he knows how to draw fouls in a fast break situation, draws the charge by stepping in at the right place, not making stupid fouls, etc. Fish's decision making ability makes him still one of the better PG among the Lakers squad. He may not be fast or quick, but not making bone headed mistakes and not turning the ball over is very crucial when we are talking about winning the championship.

I understand people may think he has a bad shot selection, but I don't, you take what the defense gives you. And people may think he is a horrible defender, in which he is doing the best he can do with that body of his. If we were aiming for a 3peat, Fish is my starting PG for the next 2 years, and because of that we shouldn't worry about anything beyond this next 2 years but to win those championships.

When you are in a win now mode, I believe that's what you gotta focus only, winning NOW. And with that mindset, Fish is my guy.

I dont want to trade Fisher for Kirk. I want to trade the players I used in the trade machine.
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Old 08-03-2009, 12:38 AM   #40
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Default Re: One more trade to solidify the backcourt

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Originally Posted by Robster89
No disrespect intended bro.
Hinrich is a really nice player and would be a great fit with the Lakers.
He is a good defender, though I'd hardly call him great.
Compared to Ariza, for example, Hinrich is not nearly as good (and Ariza did oftentimes guard guards).
Billups is still pretty good, Kidd's best days are long behind him.

Kirk's low FG% would improve dramatically with a team with the offensive weapons we have, so wouldn't concern me. Kirk is big, a good defender, good ballhandler and good outside shooter. I'd love to get him.
His contract however, does lower his value.

Still, I don't believe the Bulls would simply unload him for expiring's. (Though, if they moved Kirk and either traded Thomas or let him walk, they may very well have the cap space to go after 2 big names next year, and the only way that could happen would be to unload Kirk).

Like I said, if Mitch could spin some more Kwame for Gasol magic, I'd be all for it. We are set at every position for the next 3 plus years EXCEPT PG, and Kirk would fill that need very nicely.

Let's assume Phoenix is out of the playoff picture this year, and Sarver continues to have financial problems, and it's apparent Amare wants to walk:

Amare to Chicago
Thomas, Johnson, Farmar, Stache, a Bull's #1 and a Laker#1 to Phx.
Kirk to the Lakers

The Bulls could sign Amare to an extention AND pursue Wade (or Joe Johnson to pair with Rose in the back court)
Suns get a couple of young players with options in Thomas, Farmar and Stache, plus some picks and financial relief with letting Amare go.
Lakers get Kirk

Chicago is trying to free up money (or should be) to make a run at DWade next year. Getting rid of kirks 9 mil a year would go a long way.
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Old 08-03-2009, 12:43 AM   #41
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Default Re: One more trade to solidify the backcourt

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Originally Posted by tamaraw08
I thought about your last line, if Lakers fans have seen enough Bulls games, and if they did, do they particularly watch a player's ability to defend like that of Kirk. Some fans have been amazed at Ariza's "superb" defense, noting his great anticipation in intercepting passes, or CP3'S no. of steals per game etc. We gasp in amazement as we witnessed Tayshaun Prince leaping like a panther to block Reggie Millers breakaway layup but what most of us yawn and don't see is one's players ability to stay in front of the player he is guarding because.... it is boring and it lacked the flare. oh well.

Kirk is a better defensive player than Trevor....and its not close imo.

Trevor made some great steals and a few blocks but his defense was more on help, and only made an impact in the game every once in a while.

OTOH, Kirk's on-ball defense makes a difference every possession, potentially. He can flat out stop guys. He makes Dwyane Wade look like Larry Hughes regularly. He guarded Paul Pierce in the first round and routinely stifled his offense, all while giving up something like 4 inches and 50 lbs. You can put Hinrich on a player and expect his ppg and % to drop. Substantially. And against the point guards and 2-guards of the west, that would be a tremendous relief, especially considering our current PG rotations defensive woes. Shannon is getting there, but Kirk is where Shannon strives to be.
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Old 08-03-2009, 12:59 AM   #42
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Default Re: One more trade to solidify the backcourt

the OP trade is not unreasonable.
Chicago will have to move him sooner or later. probably sooner.
they will want a quality backup PG in return, as well as expirers and maybe a player and a pick.

Hinrich is highly paid, but I believe he is an elite PG, perhaps top-10.
he can be a starter on a champioship team.
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Old 08-03-2009, 01:00 PM   #43
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Default Re: One more trade to solidify the backcourt

Quote:
Originally Posted by picc84
Chicago is trying to free up money (or should be) to make a run at DWade next year. Getting rid of kirks 9 mil a year would go a long way.


I'm with you.
The Lakers also have 2 trade exceptions (2.5 mil from the Mihm deal, and 1.8 mil from the Vladrad trade) which could come in very handy, as they immediately reduce a teams payroll/lux tax.

I do think that ideally, the Bulls would like to get a big this season via trade, and if they included Kirk and Thomas in that deal, they would still be in position to pursue DWade (who I do not believe will leave the Heat) as well as sign their trade player (Amare, Boozer) long tem.

The whole DFish versus Kirk talk in moot IMO.
You were calling for the Lakers to aquire Kirk without giving up DFish.
I think we both agree that DFish is like Laker family, and retires in purple and gold. But, this may very well be his last NBA season, and we need to prepare for the future, and Kirk would be the ideal player, and is on the market (or should be).

I think the Lakers will begin the year and see how our PG's look. If they feel there is room for improvement (and more importantly, that Brown/Farmar are not starting caliber PG's in the future) AND a deal could be made, AT THE LAKERS PRICE (without touching our top 6 players, the starters plus LO), Mitch will be involved. I just think that for Kirk, we'd need to try to be part of a 3 way which lands the Bulls the big they desire (Amare, Boozer). And both those teams (Suns, Jazz) would not want Kirk, as they have great PG's making big coin.
Both the Suns and Jazz are well into lux tax land and have ownership issues, so expirings like Morrison, picks and trade exceptions may be desirerable.
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Old 08-03-2009, 02:46 PM   #44
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Default Re: One more trade to solidify the backcourt

I love our backcourt. Every guard on our roster gives the team something different. Fisher is the crafty veteran who can hit clutch shots. Brown is fast and has good upper body strength. Farmer is quick, agile and is an underrated shooter, plus a hometown favorite since he went to UCLA. Farmer and Brown are extremely young and are still adjusting to the NBA. Next year will be a breakout season for them. God I can't wait. ODOM IS BACK
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Old 08-03-2009, 04:47 PM   #45
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Default Re: One more trade to solidify the backcourt

Quote:
Originally Posted by picc84
Kirk is a better defensive player than Trevor....and its not close imo.

Trevor made some great steals and a few blocks but his defense was more on help, and only made an impact in the game every once in a while.

OTOH, Kirk's on-ball defense makes a difference every possession, potentially. He can flat out stop guys. He makes Dwyane Wade look like Larry Hughes regularly. He guarded Paul Pierce in the first round and routinely stifled his offense, all while giving up something like 4 inches and 50 lbs. You can put Hinrich on a player and expect his ppg and % to drop. Substantially. And against the point guards and 2-guards of the west, that would be a tremendous relief, especially considering our current PG rotations defensive woes. Shannon is getting there, but Kirk is where Shannon strives to be.

I agree with you, don't know if you misunderstood my post, but what i said, was steals, interceptions and blocks are more spectacular plays that are easy to implanted to most fans minds. A defenders ability to stay in front of his man esp during attack are one of the most neglected aspect in most fans observations. I don't mean to de-value Ariza, bec. I still don't consider him as a great defender, maybe he is heading to that direction but intercepting passes is just one aspect of defense, the bad part about this too is when you miss this attempted steal, your defender usually gets a much easier FG.
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