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Old 08-06-2009, 02:18 PM   #1
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Default Artest - Defensive Stats vs Lebron, Carmelo, Wade, etc.

Quote:
BLACK = Regular game Stats average
RED = Stats average against Ron Artest

by Jordan-esque

LEBRON JAMES
Record 3W - 7L
PTS 27.5 -- FG% .471 -- 3P% .328 -- FTA 8.8 -- REB 7.0 -- AST 6.7 -- TOV 3.3
PTS 24.6 -- FG% .447 -- 3P% .231 -- FTA 7.1 -- REB 5.8 -- AST 5.3 -- TOV 5.1


CARMELO ANTHONY
Record 5W - 7L
PTS 24.2 -- FG% .460 -- 3P% .307 -- FTA 7.7 -- REB 6.1 -- AST 3.1 -- TOV 3.1
PTS 19.9 -- FG% .411 -- 3P% .250 -- FTA 4.8 -- REB 5.4 -- AST 2.3 -- TOV 3.2


DWYANE WADE
Record 2W - 6L
PTS 25.2 -- FG% .483 -- 3P% .285 -- FTA 9.3 -- REB 4.9 -- AST 6.7 -- TOV 3.8
PTS 23.1 -- FG% .467 -- 3P% .188 -- FTA 9.3 -- REB 5.4 -- AST 6.8 -- TOV 4.9


BRANDON ROY
Record 4W - 5L
PTS 19.8 -- FG%.465 -- 3P% .363 -- FTA 5.4 -- REB 4.6 -- AST 5.1 -- TOV 1.9
PTS 17.4 -- FG% .415 -- 3P% .278 -- FTA 3.7 -- RPG 5.1 -- AST 5.3 -- TOV 2.7


VINCE CARTER
Record 9W - 11L
PTS 23.5 -- FG% .447 -- 3P% .376 -- FTA 6.0 -- REB 5.5 -- AST 4.3 -- TOV 2.4
PTS 20.4 -- FG% .479 -- 3P% .455 -- FTA 4.2 -- RPG 4.2 -- AST 4.0 -- TOV 2.8


PAUL PIERCE
Record 9W - 10L
PTS 22.9 -- FG% .443 -- 3P% .366 -- FTA 7.8 -- REB 6.3 -- AST 3.9 -- TOV 3.1
PTS 21.3 -- FG% .436 -- 3P% .393 -- FTA 7.1 -- REB 5.8 -- AST 3.9 -- TOV 3.4


Records indicate each players Head-to-Head W/L record against Artest.

Worth noting above are the lower PTS (points), FG% (field goal %), FTA (free throw attempts), and the higher TOV (turnovers).

This doesn't necessarily mean that Artest was guarding these players every single minute of the whole entire game, it is however a visual tool to see the on-going trend that all these players average when they go up against a team with Artest.

Looking at the numbers, Artest seems uniquely successful guarding these players, holding a Head-to-Head team win record against them all: 46W - 32L; that's almost a 60% win percentage.

These players are: all down their PTS average -- most below their FG% -- all below their FTA per game -- with a pretty high TOV rate.

James stats across the board from PTS, AST, REB, FG%, 3P%, and even FTA are notably lower than his average, most especially the fact that he struggles with TOV against Artest, practically turning the ball over more so than his average - almost a whopping 2 turnovers more per game. Not to mention his Head-to-Head is at 3W compared to 7L.

Anthony seems to be struggling too, and doesn't look to be getting to the charity stripe too often when Artest is on him - from 7.7 FTA down to 4.8 FTA while scoring 5 points less per game, not to mention, scoring them at a lower FG%.

Wade on the other hand, has his PTS and FG% down, yet still finds a way to get to the free throw line, averaging exactly the same 9.3 FTA per game.

Roy has found it difficult to consistently find his shooting touch against Artest, with both FG% and 3P% down almost 4% and 9% respectively.

Carter is the only player with a higher FG% than his norm. Also telling is that Carter's 3P% gets a big boost, while his FTA are down nearly a good 2 attempts per game, implying that he likely depends on the mid to long range perimeter shots to get his points against Artest, instead of driving it to the paint and to the free throw line.

Pierce seems to be the only player not too overly affected. His stats against Artest are a little lower, but still consistent with his regular average.

For the sake of fun, here's Artest's numbers comparison against Bryant:

KOBE BRYANT:
Record 15W - 5L
PTS 25.1 -- FG% .455 -- 3P% .341 -- FTA 7.7 -- REB 5.3 -- AST 4.6 -- TOV 2.9
PTS 27.6 -- FG% .481 -- 3P% .408 -- FTA 8.4 -- REB 5.7 -- AST 6.1 -- TOV 3.6


Bryant seems to be the only one with a winning Head-to-Head team record against Artest, as well higher stats across the board with PTS, FTA, FG%, and 3P% average. Yikes! Pretty scary. A Black Mamba indeed.
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Old 08-06-2009, 02:21 PM   #2
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Default Re: Artest - Defensive Stats vs Lebron, Carmelo, Wade, etc.

This post is very funny to me.. but in a good way..
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Old 08-06-2009, 08:24 PM   #3
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Default Re: Artest - Defensive Stats vs Lebron, Carmelo, Wade, etc.

Against the likes of LeBron and Melo I feel Kobe would be better and defending the two. Last year he did a number on both. I think the main thing that Artest allows the us to do is keep Kobe rooming on less key possessions, while bringing him back on the opposition's best player on more important stretches.
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Old 08-06-2009, 09:34 PM   #4
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Default Re: Artest - Defensive Stats vs Lebron, Carmelo, Wade, etc.

We can switch up Artest and Kobe on these guys.....

Damn I can't wait!!!!
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Old 08-06-2009, 10:07 PM   #5
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Default Re: Artest - Defensive Stats vs Lebron, Carmelo, Wade, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan-esque
LEBRON JAMES
Record 3W - 7L
PTS 27.5 -- FG% .471 -- 3P% .328 -- FTA 8.8 -- REB 7.0 -- AST 6.7 -- TOV 3.3
PTS 24.6 -- FG% .447 -- 3P% .231 -- FTA 7.1 -- REB 5.8 -- AST 5.3 -- TOV 5.1


CARMELO ANTHONY
Record 5W - 7L
PTS 24.2 -- FG% .460 -- 3P% .307 -- FTA 7.7 -- REB 6.1 -- AST 3.1 -- TOV 3.1
PTS 19.9 -- FG% .411 -- 3P% .250 -- FTA 4.8 -- REB 5.4 -- AST 2.3 -- TOV 3.2


DWYANE WADE
Record 2W - 6L
PTS 25.2 -- FG% .483 -- 3P% .285 -- FTA 9.3 -- REB 4.9 -- AST 6.7 -- TOV 3.8
PTS 23.1 -- FG% .467 -- 3P% .188 -- FTA 9.3 -- REB 5.4 -- AST 6.8 -- TOV 4.9


BRANDON ROY
Record 4W - 5L
PTS 19.8 -- FG%.465 -- 3P% .363 -- FTA 5.4 -- REB 4.6 -- AST 5.1 -- TOV 1.9
PTS 17.4 -- FG% .415 -- 3P% .278 -- FTA 3.7 -- RPG 5.1 -- AST 5.3 -- TOV 2.7


VINCE CARTER
Record 9W - 11L
PTS 23.5 -- FG% .447 -- 3P% .376 -- FTA 6.0 -- REB 5.5 -- AST 4.3 -- TOV 2.4
PTS 20.4 -- FG% .479 -- 3P% .455 -- FTA 4.2 -- RPG 4.2 -- AST 4.0 -- TOV 2.8


PAUL PIERCE
Record 9W - 10L
PTS 22.9 -- FG% .443 -- 3P% .366 -- FTA 7.8 -- REB 6.3 -- AST 3.9 -- TOV 3.1
PTS 21.3 -- FG% .436 -- 3P% .393 -- FTA 7.1 -- REB 5.8 -- AST 3.9 -- TOV 3.4


Records indicate each players Head-to-Head W/L record against Artest.

Worth noting above are the lower PTS (points), FG% (field goal %), FTA (free throw attempts), and the higher TOV (turnovers).

This doesn't necessarily mean that Artest was guarding these players every single minute of the whole entire game, it is however a visual tool to see the on-going trend that all these players average when they go up against a team with Artest.

Looking at the numbers, Artest seems uniquely successful guarding these players, holding a Head-to-Head team win record against them all: 46W - 32L; that's almost a 60% win percentage.

These players are: all down their PTS average -- most below their FG% -- all below their FTA per game -- with a pretty high TOV rate.

James stats across the board from PTS, AST, REB, FG%, 3P%, and even FTA are notably lower than his average, most especially the fact that he struggles with TOV against Artest, practically turning the ball over more so than his average - almost a whopping 2 turnovers more per game. Not to mention his Head-to-Head is at 3W compared to 7L.

Anthony seems to be struggling too, and doesn't look to be getting to the charity stripe too often when Artest is on him - from 7.7 FTA down to 4.8 FTA while scoring 5 points less per game, not to mention, scoring them at a lower FG%.

Wade on the other hand, has his PTS and FG% down, yet still finds a way to get to the free throw line, averaging exactly the same 9.3 FTA per game.

Roy has found it difficult to consistently find his shooting touch against Artest, with both FG% and 3P% down almost 4% and 9% respectively.

Carter is the only player with a higher FG% than his norm. Also telling is that Carter's 3P% gets a big boost, while his FTA are down nearly a good 2 attempts per game, implying that he likely depends on the mid to long range perimeter shots to get his points against Artest, instead of driving it to the paint and to the free throw line.

Pierce seems to be the only player not too overly affected. His stats against Artest are a little lower, but still consistent with his regular average.

For the sake of fun, here's Artest's numbers comparison against Bryant:

KOBE BRYANT:
Record 15W - 5L
PTS 25.1 -- FG% .455 -- 3P% .341 -- FTA 7.7 -- REB 5.3 -- AST 4.6 -- TOV 2.9
PTS 27.6 -- FG% .481 -- 3P% .408 -- FTA 8.4 -- REB 5.7 -- AST 6.1 -- TOV 3.6


Bryant seems to be the only one with a winning Head-to-Head team record against Artest, as well higher stats across the board with PTS, FTA, FG%, and 3P% average. Yikes! Pretty scary. A Black Mamba indeed.
One fact that can REALLY obscure this stat is the presence of Shane Battier bec. a fair no. of times, it's Shane who was guarding this elite players not Artest.
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Old 08-06-2009, 10:14 PM   #6
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Default Re: Artest - Defensive Stats vs Lebron, Carmelo, Wade, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamaraw08
One fact that can REALLY obscure this stat is the presence of Shane Battier bec. a fair no. of times, it's Shane who was guarding this elite players not Artest.

So essentially is it not the same deal with Kobe-Artest-and for that matter Odom?
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Old 08-07-2009, 03:35 AM   #7
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Default Re: Artest - Defensive Stats vs Lebron, Carmelo, Wade, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamaraw08
One fact that can REALLY obscure this stat is the presence of Shane Battier bec. a fair no. of times, it's Shane who was guarding this elite players not Artest.
exactly these stats are not a reflection of artest alone, it's a refelction of the rockets defensive minded system...
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Old 08-07-2009, 05:53 AM   #8
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Default Re: Artest - Defensive Stats vs Lebron, Carmelo, Wade, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gts
exactly these stats are not a reflection of artest alone, it's a refelction of the rockets defensive minded system...

He only would've played 2-3 games against Pierce whilst playing for the rockets though
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Old 08-07-2009, 11:07 AM   #9
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Default Re: Artest - Defensive Stats vs Lebron, Carmelo, Wade, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ2k8
He only would've played 2-3 games against Pierce whilst playing for the rockets though
that's true... the thing is though you can't just look at the numbers and say "such and such has this record against so and so" there's too many varibles... like we know artest did not guard lebron last season, battier did for the most part...

the op just used the basketball reference head to head finder that shows artests teams against other players teams. it's not an accurate defensive model for actual man on man numbers, that's why they don't show and actual defensive ratings or advanced stats. only the basic win loss ppg type of thing

Last edited by gts : 08-07-2009 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 08-07-2009, 12:26 PM   #10
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Default Re: Artest - Defensive Stats vs Lebron, Carmelo, Wade, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gts
that's true... the thing is though you can't just look at the numbers and say "such and such has this record against so and so" there's too many varibles... like we know artest did not guard lebron last season, battier did for the most part...

the op just used the basketball reference head to head finder that shows artests teams against other players teams. it's not an accurate defensive model for actual man on man numbers, that's why they don't show and actual defensive ratings or advanced stats. only the basic win loss ppg type of thing

Agreed, just thought i'd point out that it perhaps wasn't just Houstons defense...Although it would be good if there was a stat that looked at numbers vs main defenders etc. but i think we can all agree that would be a little to hard to keep track of
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Old 08-07-2009, 03:47 PM   #11
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Default Re: Artest - Defensive Stats vs Lebron, Carmelo, Wade, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamaraw08
One fact that can REALLY obscure this stat is the presence of Shane Battier coz a fair no. of times, it's Shane who was guarding this elite players not Artest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gts
These stats are not a reflection of Artest alone, it's a refelction of the Rockets defensive minded system...
Understood, but I respectfully disagree.

As I've said earlier in my original post, this is not a reflection of Artest alone, however for those still wondering if these stats are not indicative of Artest's true defensive set, notably since being traded to HOU to team w/ Battier, here's a case in point:

LEBRON vs ARTEST
Here's the stats I originally put up for Lebron's career against Artest:
PTS 24.6 -- FG% .447 -- 3P% .231 -- FTA 7.1 -- REB 5.8 -- AST 5.3 -- TOV 5.1

Now let me put up the stat for Lebron against Artest BEFORE he was traded to HOU w/ Battier:
PTS 24.7 -- FG% .456 -- 3P% .226 -- FTA 7.3 -- REB 6.0 -- AST 6.0 -- TOV 5.1

Now compare them side by side:
PTS 24.6 -- FG% .447 -- 3P% .231 -- FTA 7.1 -- REB 5.8 -- AST 5.3 -- TOV 5.1
PTS 24.7 -- FG% .456 -- 3P% .226 -- FTA 7.3 -- REB 6.0 -- AST 6.0 -- TOV 5.1

So you see, the difference is insignificantly minute.

The only climb was James' AST at +0.7, otherwise everything esle is basically a +/- of about 0.1 or 0.2. PTS differential is 0.1, FTA differential is 0.2, REB differential is 0.2, etc. Also, look how eerily similar every other stats are: PTS, REB, FG%, 3P%, FTA, heck Lebron is still turning the ball over at 5.1 times per game.

Not to mention, Lebron's 3W - 7L record is 2W - 6L before Artest was in Houston.

CARMELO vs ARTEST
Here's Carmelo's career numbers vs Artest:
PTS 19.9 -- FG% .411 -- 3P% .250 -- FTA 4.8 -- REB 5.4 -- AST 2.3 -- TOV 3.2

Now Carmelo's numbers WITHOUT Battier teaming w/ Artest in HOU:
PTS 18.6 -- FG% .413 -- 3P% .136 -- FTA 5.1 -- REB 5.6 -- AST 2.1 -- TOV 3.1

Side by side comparison:
PTS 19.9 -- FG% .411 -- 3P% .250 -- FTA 4.8 -- REB 5.4 -- AST 2.3 -- TOV 3.2
PTS 18.6 -- FG% .413 -- 3P% .136 -- FTA 5.1 -- REB 5.6 -- AST 2.1 -- TOV 3.1

So as much as it would be very nice of me to spend so much of my time to do this for the rest of the other players as if I'm getting paid like John Hollinger to do this, point is, it's really moot.

P.S.
Regarding the "WADE vs ARTEST" numbers... those stats are ALL Artest's defensive numbers, because both he and Wade only faced-off against each other once last season, and Mr. Battier missed that game.
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Old 08-07-2009, 04:12 PM   #12
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Default Re: Artest - Defensive Stats vs Lebron, Carmelo, Wade, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan-esque
Understood, but I respectfully disagree.

As I've said earlier in my original post, this is not a reflection of Artest alone, however for those still wondering if these stats are not indicative of Artest's true defensive set, notably since being traded to HOU to team w/ Battier, here's a case in point:

LEBRON vs ARTEST
Here's the stats I originally put up for Lebron's career against Artest:
PTS 24.6 -- FG% .447 -- 3P% .231 -- FTA 7.1 -- REB 5.8 -- AST 5.3 -- TOV 5.1

Now let me put up the stat for Lebron against Artest BEFORE he was traded to HOU w/ Battier:
PTS 24.7 -- FG% .456 -- 3P% .226 -- FTA 7.3 -- REB 6.0 -- AST 6.0 -- TOV 5.1

Now compare them side by side:
PTS 24.6 -- FG% .447 -- 3P% .231 -- FTA 7.1 -- REB 5.8 -- AST 5.3 -- TOV 5.1
PTS 24.7 -- FG% .456 -- 3P% .226 -- FTA 7.3 -- REB 6.0 -- AST 6.0 -- TOV 5.1

So you see, the difference is insignificantly minute.

The only climb was James' AST at +0.7, otherwise everything esle is basically a +/- of about 0.1 or 0.2. PTS differential is 0.1, FTA differential is 0.2, REB differential is 0.2, etc. Also, look how eerily similar every other stats are: PTS, REB, FG%, 3P%, FTA, heck Lebron is still turning the ball over at 5.1 times per game.

Not to mention, Lebron's 3W - 7L record is 2W - 6L before Artest was in Houston.

CARMELO vs ARTEST
Here's Carmelo's career numbers vs Artest:
PTS 19.9 -- FG% .411 -- 3P% .250 -- FTA 4.8 -- REB 5.4 -- AST 2.3 -- TOV 3.2

Now Carmelo's numbers WITHOUT Battier teaming w/ Artest in HOU:
PTS 18.6 -- FG% .413 -- 3P% .136 -- FTA 5.1 -- REB 5.6 -- AST 2.1 -- TOV 3.1

Side by side comparison:
PTS 19.9 -- FG% .411 -- 3P% .250 -- FTA 4.8 -- REB 5.4 -- AST 2.3 -- TOV 3.2
PTS 18.6 -- FG% .413 -- 3P% .136 -- FTA 5.1 -- REB 5.6 -- AST 2.1 -- TOV 3.1

So as much as it would be very nice of me to spend so much of my time to do this for the rest of the other players as if I'm getting paid like John Hollinger to do this, point is, it's really moot.

P.S.
Regarding the "WADE vs ARTEST" numbers... those stats are ALL Artest's defensive numbers, because both he and Wade only faced-off against each other once last season, and Mr. Battier missed that game.

Nevertheless, I appreciate all the effort you put for this post. There is no doubt in my mind that Artest is a very good defender, although he pointed out that a few weeks ago, he's not that great as he used to be, as compared several yrs back. Phil recognized his defensive strength before, revealing that Kobe was really challenged by Artest etc etc.
But still there are other aspects that needs to be considered like
1. Blown out games, if it happened, these elite players would probably have played significantly less esp the 4th guarter.
2. Nagging injuries.
3. How fresh were these players, as in if there were back to back games involved, certainly their performances would be affected, not to mention, how they have to be kept fresh in the pivotal 4th guarter and the same goes for Artest and Houston
4. Lastly, there is such a thing called luck IMO. Some nights, these guys are on, no matter what, some games, it's the opposite. You can include certain refs too, whose calls basically dicatates how productive these players can become. Some call it too tight, some let the defenders get away with certain moves.

Last edited by tamaraw08 : 08-07-2009 at 04:14 PM.
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Old 08-07-2009, 05:16 PM   #13
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Default Re: Artest - Defensive Stats vs Lebron, Carmelo, Wade, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan-esque
As I've said earlier in my original post, this is not a reflection of Artest alone, however for those still wondering if these stats are not indicative of Artest's true defensive set, notably since being traded to HOU to team w/ Battier, here's a case in point:
don't take me wrong, not questioning artests defense at all, (i think everyone agrees that he is a good defender) just the numbers you're using to make the point...

try using the advanced defensive ratings numbers

also year by year break downs/investigation help instead of career numbers because artest has played on more than just one team. two of them having some pretty darn good defenders on them
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Old 08-07-2009, 10:07 PM   #14
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Default Re: Artest - Defensive Stats vs Lebron, Carmelo, Wade, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan-esque
Understood, but I respectfully disagree.

As I've said earlier in my original post, this is not a reflection of Artest alone, however for those still wondering if these stats are not indicative of Artest's true defensive set, notably since being traded to HOU to team w/ Battier, here's a case in point:

LEBRON vs ARTEST
Here's the stats I originally put up for Lebron's career against Artest:
PTS 24.6 -- FG% .447 -- 3P% .231 -- FTA 7.1 -- REB 5.8 -- AST 5.3 -- TOV 5.1

Now let me put up the stat for Lebron against Artest BEFORE he was traded to HOU w/ Battier:
PTS 24.7 -- FG% .456 -- 3P% .226 -- FTA 7.3 -- REB 6.0 -- AST 6.0 -- TOV 5.1

Now compare them side by side:
PTS 24.6 -- FG% .447 -- 3P% .231 -- FTA 7.1 -- REB 5.8 -- AST 5.3 -- TOV 5.1
PTS 24.7 -- FG% .456 -- 3P% .226 -- FTA 7.3 -- REB 6.0 -- AST 6.0 -- TOV 5.1

So you see, the difference is insignificantly minute.

The only climb was James' AST at +0.7, otherwise everything esle is basically a +/- of about 0.1 or 0.2. PTS differential is 0.1, FTA differential is 0.2, REB differential is 0.2, etc. Also, look how eerily similar every other stats are: PTS, REB, FG%, 3P%, FTA, heck Lebron is still turning the ball over at 5.1 times per game.

Not to mention, Lebron's 3W - 7L record is 2W - 6L before Artest was in Houston.

CARMELO vs ARTEST
Here's Carmelo's career numbers vs Artest:
PTS 19.9 -- FG% .411 -- 3P% .250 -- FTA 4.8 -- REB 5.4 -- AST 2.3 -- TOV 3.2

Now Carmelo's numbers WITHOUT Battier teaming w/ Artest in HOU:
PTS 18.6 -- FG% .413 -- 3P% .136 -- FTA 5.1 -- REB 5.6 -- AST 2.1 -- TOV 3.1

Side by side comparison:
PTS 19.9 -- FG% .411 -- 3P% .250 -- FTA 4.8 -- REB 5.4 -- AST 2.3 -- TOV 3.2
PTS 18.6 -- FG% .413 -- 3P% .136 -- FTA 5.1 -- REB 5.6 -- AST 2.1 -- TOV 3.1

So as much as it would be very nice of me to spend so much of my time to do this for the rest of the other players as if I'm getting paid like John Hollinger to do this, point is, it's really moot.

P.S.
Regarding the "WADE vs ARTEST" numbers... those stats are ALL Artest's defensive numbers, because both he and Wade only faced-off against each other once last season, and Mr. Battier missed that game.

Great Work!!!!! Repped
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Old 08-08-2009, 04:54 AM   #15
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Default Re: Artest - Defensive Stats vs Lebron, Carmelo, Wade, etc.

Cool stuff.

My hope is that the whole teams identity becomes more defense oriented with the knowledge that they have ron ron. Especially in halfcourt. And hopefully that ron gets easy O out of the triangle rather than having to try and create for himself.
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