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Old 08-08-2009, 03:06 PM   #31
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Default Re: Better Career - Ken Griffey Jr or Barry Bonds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Bonds and this isn't even close. Most homers in a single season and career, shattered records for walks, intentional walks and OBP. He batted .370 and .362 winning sveeral batting titles, a ton of gold gloves and he's the only member of both the 400/400 club and the 500/500 club for steals and homers, as well as being one of only a few in the 40/40 club for a season.


yes. that's the easy part. bonds' stats will never be duplicated. based on stats, bonds' career is as impressive as any other player in history. period.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Remember how good he was in the 2002 playoffs? I don't give a fuck what he was on. His batting eye and hitting ability were other-wordly, not just his power.


you don't really think that steroids will only add power??

juicers wait on pitches longer b/c of their bat speed. that takes a pitchers' main advantage away from him. off speed pitches aren't magic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
And for the moron who said innocent until proven guilty, well Bonds hasn't been proven guilty dipshit, otherwise he'd be in jail right now for perjury.


yeah, that's me. eat a dyck. bytch.

you catch your wife cheating on you. she's not actually going to jail. does that mean she's innocent??


"Barry Bonds was indicted Thursday by a San Francisco grand jury on charges of perjury and obstruction of justice.

During the criminal investigation, evidence was obtained, including positive tests for the presence of anabolic steroids and other performance-enhancing substances for Bonds and other athletes," the indictment read.

Bonds, a 43-year-old free agent, was charged on four counts of perjury and one for obstruction of justice.

If convicted, he faces a maximum sentence of 30 years in prison.

BALCO was a nutritional supplements lab, based in San Francisco, charged with illegal steroid distribution to elite athletes.

Alleged to have received steroids were Bonds, Jason Giambi of the New York Yankees, former NFL linebacker Bill Romanowski and sprinters Tim Montgomery and Marion Jones.

BALCO president Victor Conte, vice-president James Valente and Greg Anderson, Bonds's former personal trainer, were convicted last Oct. 15 of operating an illegal steroid distribution ring.

Also convicted were Patrick Arnold, a rogue chemist, and track coach Remi Korchemny.

Bonds, an outfielder for the San Francisco Giants at the time, testified in 2003 that Anderson provided him with flaxseed oil and arthritic balm, not steroids.

Asked if Anderson supplied him with steroids, Bonds replied: "Not that I know of."

When Anderson refused to testify whether Bonds committed perjury, he was charged with contempt and jailed Aug. 28, 2006, but a federal judge ordered him released from prison on Thursday.

In March 2006, Bonds filed a lawsuit against two San Francisco Chronicle reporters who published Game of Shadows, a book alleging that he used steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs, but he dropped the suit three months later.

And Kimberly Bell, Bonds's ex-mistress, testified before a grand jury that Bonds told her of his steroid use in 2000.

Bonds is the most prolific slugger of his generation, surpassing Mark McGwire's record for home runs in a single season with 73 in 2001, and breaking Henry Aaron's career mark of 755 homers on Aug. 7.




showing 2 pictures of bonds to contrast his weight gain was never mentioned, at least be myself, as proof positive that he's a juicer. ok?

athletes get stronger, faster, & smarter all the time. idk who's debating that obvious fact?


Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Look, I know that Bonds most likely used steroids and I know that anyone from that era could have used steroids. The fact is that Bonds career ended up being much greater than Griffey's, part of that was due to injuries for sure, but Bonds was a better hitter and baserunner regardless while Griffey was the better defensive player.


there's really no question. bonds put up better numbers. griffey's #s don't measure up.

still, griffey > bonds

Last edited by BRabbiT : 08-08-2009 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 08-08-2009, 03:22 PM   #32
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Default Re: Better Career - Ken Griffey Jr or Barry Bonds?

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Old 08-08-2009, 04:05 PM   #33
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Default Re: Better Career - Ken Griffey Jr or Barry Bonds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRabbiT
yes. that's the easy part. bonds' stats will never be duplicated. based on stats, bonds' career is as impressive as any other player in history. period.

Bonds stats, dominance and the fact that he, unlike Griffey went to the World series all put him ahead.

Quote:
you don't really think that steroids will only add power??

juicers wait on pitches longer b/c of their bat speed. that takes a pitchers' main advantage away from him. off speed pitches aren't magic.


Did McGwire, Sosa, Canseco, Giambi, Ortiz, A-Rod, Manny, Palmeiro ect. have seasons of .370 or .362 batting averages? Did they shatter walks and OBP. records? Did they have strikeout totals as low as Bonds?

Quote:
yeah, that's me. eat a dyck. bytch.

Spoken like someone who just got destroyed.

Quote:
you catch your wife cheating on you. she's not actually going to jail. does that mean she's innocent??

That made zero sense because cheating isn't a crime. Bonds is being investiagted for the crime of committing perjury when asked if he used steroids. If he was "caught" then he'd be in jail. We all know he probably used steroids, but don't use the innocent until proven guilty policy in America against Bonds because he hasn't been proven guilty.

Quote:

"Barry Bonds was indicted Thursday by a San Francisco grand jury on charges of perjury and obstruction of justice.

During the criminal investigation, evidence was obtained, including positive tests for the presence of anabolic steroids and other performance-enhancing substances for Bonds and other athletes," the indictment read.

Bonds, a 43-year-old free agent, was charged on four counts of perjury and one for obstruction of justice.

If convicted, he faces a maximum sentence of 30 years in prison.

BALCO was a nutritional supplements lab, based in San Francisco, charged with illegal steroid distribution to elite athletes.

Alleged to have received steroids were Bonds, Jason Giambi of the New York Yankees, former NFL linebacker Bill Romanowski and sprinters Tim Montgomery and Marion Jones.

BALCO president Victor Conte, vice-president James Valente and Greg Anderson, Bonds's former personal trainer, were convicted last Oct. 15 of operating an illegal steroid distribution ring.

Also convicted were Patrick Arnold, a rogue chemist, and track coach Remi Korchemny.

Bonds, an outfielder for the San Francisco Giants at the time, testified in 2003 that Anderson provided him with flaxseed oil and arthritic balm, not steroids.

Asked if Anderson supplied him with steroids, Bonds replied: "Not that I know of."

When Anderson refused to testify whether Bonds committed perjury, he was charged with contempt and jailed Aug. 28, 2006, but a federal judge ordered him released from prison on Thursday.

In March 2006, Bonds filed a lawsuit against two San Francisco Chronicle reporters who published Game of Shadows, a book alleging that he used steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs, but he dropped the suit three months later.

And Kimberly Bell, Bonds's ex-mistress, testified before a grand jury that Bonds told her of his steroid use in 2000.

Bonds is the most prolific slugger of his generation, surpassing Mark McGwire's record for home runs in a single season with 73 in 2001, and breaking Henry Aaron's career mark of 755 homers on Aug. 7.

You can indict anyone, that's not proving them guilty. A lot of their evidence has been thrown out by the judge which is a big reason why the case has stalled as long as it has.


Quote:
still, griffey > bonds

Nope, Griffey may have been better at times during the 90's or even throughout the 90's, but for their careers this isn't close.
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Old 08-08-2009, 04:41 PM   #34
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Default Re: Better Career - Ken Griffey Jr or Barry Bonds?

So far, most of the replies to this thread answer the question "Who do you like better as a person" not which player had the better career.
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Old 08-08-2009, 04:49 PM   #35
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Default Re: Better Career - Ken Griffey Jr or Barry Bonds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Did McGwire, Sosa, Canseco, Giambi, Ortiz, A-Rod, Manny, Palmeiro ect. have seasons of .370 or .362 batting averages? Did they shatter walks and OBP. records? Did they have strikeout totals as low as Bonds?

uh, no one in this thread has said that steroids made bonds into an amazing baseball player.

you really should flip through Game of Shadows or at least surf the web for some online excerpts. bonds was one of the best in the L before he started juicing. just like rodriquez. that's a fact.

that argument is boring. "well, canseco took steroids..."

bonds has had a more impressive career. he's probably made more money, too. but he's a tool, has few friends & has never done anything for anyone other than himself.

griffey's > bonds' career


Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
That made zero sense because cheating isn't a crime.

no, if your girl cheats on you, she's guilty of cheating. You know, most adults are capable of deciding if some else is guilty of something, even if a prosecutor hasn't put them in jail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
You can indict anyone, that's not proving them guilty. A lot of their evidence has been thrown out by the judge which is a big reason why the case has stalled as long as it has.
That made zero sense because cheating isn't a crime.

"The indictment, culminating a four-year investigation into steroid use by elite athletes, charged Bonds with four counts of perjury and one of obstruction of justice. If convicted, he could be sentenced to a maximum of 30 years in prison."


Bonds' trial for obstruction of justice was to have begun on March 2, 2009, but eleventh-hour appeals by the prosecution of pre-trial rulings have postponed jury selection indefinitely. Bonds is not expected to get prison time should he be convicted after a pro cyclist facing similar charges in the case was given house arrest and probation instead of jail time.



lack of evidence? we'll see (starting next month).


Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Spoken like someone who just got destroyed.

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Old 08-08-2009, 05:22 PM   #36
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Default Re: Better Career - Ken Griffey Jr or Barry Bonds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRabbiT
uh, no one in this thread has said that steroids made bonds into an amazing baseball player.

you really should flip through Game of Shadows or at least surf the web for some online excerpts. bonds was one of the best in the L before he started juicing. just like rodriquez. that's a fact.

that argument is boring. "well, canseco took steroids..."

Game Of Shadows seems like a waste to me. I already have the opinion that he used steroids, but I don't see where these writers got such precise information and I would take what they say with a grain of salt.

The fact is that Bonds played in the steroids era and was easily the best.

Quote:
bonds has had a more impressive career. he's probably made more money, too. but he's a tool, has few friends & has never done anything for anyone other than himself.

griffey's > bonds' career

How can you say that Bonds has had a more impressive career, but yet Griffey's is better? You contradicted yourself big time there.

Quote:
no, if your girl cheats on you, she's guilty of cheating. You know, most adults are capable of deciding if some else is guilty of something, even if a prosecutor hasn't put them in jail.

Yeah, but don't say false statements like he's been PROVEN gulity. You can have your opinion that he took them, I share that opinion, but he's still technically innocent(based on the innocent until proven gulity policy) unlike A-Rod, Ortiz, Palmeiro, Canseco, Manny ect. who have admitted it or tested positive.

Quote:
"The indictment, culminating a four-year investigation into steroid use by elite athletes, charged Bonds with four counts of perjury and one of obstruction of justice. If convicted, he could be sentenced to a maximum of 30 years in prison."


Bonds' trial for obstruction of justice was to have begun on March 2, 2009, but eleventh-hour appeals by the prosecution of pre-trial rulings have postponed jury selection indefinitely. Bonds is not expected to get prison time should he be convicted after a pro cyclist facing similar charges in the case was given house arrest and probation instead of jail time.



lack of evidence? we'll see (starting next month).

Well the prosecutions key evidence was throw out after Bonds trainer wouldn'
t testify and that was considered a big blow to the prosecution. So yeah, we'll see, but if it's taken them this long and their key evidence was thrown out then I don't think their case is very strong.
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Old 08-08-2009, 05:31 PM   #37
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Default Re: Better Career - Ken Griffey Jr or Barry Bonds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pete's montreux
To me, defense and base stealing are hard to choose from. It's a stale-mate.
Are you kidding? A Gold Glove CF or a guy who can steal 30 bags a year? That's a stalemate?
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Old 08-08-2009, 05:32 PM   #38
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Default Re: Better Career - Ken Griffey Jr or Barry Bonds?

Re: Better Career

bonds is a punchline. personally, i'd rather have griffey's career than bonds. thus, griffey > bonds.

that's not a contradiction.


btw, i never said he's been found guilty. the case is ongoing.

taking steroids is not really a bid deal (legally), anyhow. he's not going to jail even if found guilty. but, baseball-wise, his career (*) is diminished.

Jr > bonds
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Old 08-08-2009, 06:19 PM   #39
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Default Re: Better Career - Ken Griffey Jr or Barry Bonds?

There's no doubt that Bonds career has been diminished by the allegations, but I bet that his career will look a bit bigger as more names are linked. Already we have A-Rod, Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro, Canseco, Ortiz, Ramirez, Giambi, Juan Gonzalez, Pudge Rodridguez... That includes the 2nd and 3rd highest single season homerun hitters, the main challenger to Bonds homerun record, two of the other three 40/40 men and the other premiere hitters/power hitters. Plus a good chunk of the past MVP winners.

That makes me not give Pujols or Griffey any edge just because they haven't been associated with PED's yet. I'm very suspicious of any baseball player, much less power hitters.
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Old 08-08-2009, 06:34 PM   #40
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Default Re: Better Career - Ken Griffey Jr or Barry Bonds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndeeregreen
Are you kidding? A Gold Glove CF or a guy who can steal 30 bags a year? That's a stalemate?

It really depends on how you look at it. A gold glove center fielder probably gets 10-18 assists per year or something like that and run down countless balls that would of normally scored a run if it got pass him.

Some people perfer base stealers who get themselves in scoring position by themselves thus giving their team a better chance to score.

I personally think you have to get up near 50 steals or higher during a season to make yourself more worthy then a gold glove fielder in that aspect.
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Old 08-08-2009, 06:36 PM   #41
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Default Re: Better Career - Ken Griffey Jr or Barry Bonds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meticode
It really depends on how you look at it. A gold glove center fielder probably gets 10-18 assists per year or something like that and run down countless balls that would of normally scored a run if it got pass him.

Some people perfer base stealers who get themselves in scoring position by themselves thus giving their team a better chance to score.

I personally think you have to get up near 50 steals or higher during a season to make yourself more worthy then a gold glove fielder in that aspect.
Even that wouldn't change it for me. 50 steals over ~150 games of being the best defensive player at your position? There's nothing that can stop a Gold Glover from being valuable every single game he plays in, as opposed to a base stealer, who can go 4-52 at the plate and not get a chance to swipe a bag in ten games.
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Old 08-08-2009, 07:40 PM   #42
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Default Re: Better Career - Ken Griffey Jr or Barry Bonds?

You guys are saying it like Bonds was a bad fielder. He was GG as well! plus had better speed. And was MVP for 3 straight years in a row I believe.

Bonds > Griffey

It's okay if you like Griffey better, but Bonds was easily the better player...
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Old 08-08-2009, 07:47 PM   #43
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Default Re: Better Career - Ken Griffey Jr or Barry Bonds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by intrinsic
So far, most of the replies to this thread answer the question "Who do you like better as a person" not which player had the better career.
Yep.

It's obvious most people like Griffey more and who can blame them. I don't really give a damn about either player but Bonds was the more productive player when comparing their careers.

Yes, fielding-wise, Giffey was more valuable because a very good CF is easily more important than a very good LF. But it's not enough to make up for the clear edge Bonds had on offense.
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Old 08-08-2009, 07:53 PM   #44
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Default Re: Better Career - Ken Griffey Jr or Barry Bonds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2LeTTeRS
The title says it all, which of these icons had a better career as a baseball player.

Bonds. Even if you take out the steroid years the dude was a HOF and multiple MVP winner, if I remember correctly.
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Old 08-08-2009, 10:46 PM   #45
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Default Re: Better Career - Ken Griffey Jr or Barry Bonds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndeeregreen
Are you kidding? A Gold Glove CF or a guy who can steal 30 bags a year? That's a stalemate?
LOL seriously. I saw an interview around 98 or 99 where Bonds says Griffey will surpass anything I do by miles. I guess he had second thoughts and went roid happy. He gained 35lbs of muscle in one off-season. That's not normal. His head tripled in size. Bonds should not be in the hall. Cheating is cheating. No matter if everyone was doing it. Rules are rules. Griffey is top 3 defensive cf's and top 5 hitters. Griffey was a 300 hitter most of his career. Bonds is a fraud. Had he not done roids he'd have 550 home runs or so. Still a HOF but the ROIDS! did him in. **** Bonds.
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