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Old 09-09-2009, 03:30 AM   #31
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Default Re: Was an innocent man executed?

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Originally Posted by Smokee
life in prison costs too much. If anything why should taxpayers have to pay for the most violent offenders that are undoubtedly guilty, and will never become a normal member of society? We really need to review the worst of cases and execute accordingly as long as its beyond a shadow of a doubt, and create a harsher deterrence to those type of crimes. Then decriminalize marijuana offenses into just fines for doing it in public. Then maybe our prison system wouldn't be so overburdened.

Kill people to save some cash, that's your stance? SMH. You realize only 37 people have been executed this year, out of a prison population of ~7.3 million? That is a ridiculously miniscule amount of money you're saving. Also, people in prison are already supposed to be guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt. Are you suggesting a sliding scale based on whether someone's "kinda" guilty or "definitely" guilty? I just want to literally rip your post off my screen and toss it in the garbage.
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Old 09-09-2009, 03:37 AM   #32
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Default Re: Was an innocent man executed?

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Originally Posted by Showtime
Yes, there is room for error, but there is also increased ability to determine the facts.
Just one innocent person being executed is too many and it makes it a totally unjust penalty. What if that were you that was falsely accused and put to death? What if it were a family member? I doubt that you would feel like "it happens" and that the number of guilty people put to death outweigh the few innocent people that are murdered by the state. There is no acceptable number of false executions when looking at this issue.

As I said, there is no reversing an execution and we now know that innocent people have been wrongfully executed. If you were the executioner, prosecutor, police department, etc., could you live with murdering an innocent person? I know I couldn't...

As long as there are state sanctioned murders, there will be an occasional innocent person put to death. It is inevitable and totally unacceptable.

Last edited by RedBlackAttack : 09-09-2009 at 03:42 AM.
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Old 09-09-2009, 03:39 AM   #33
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Default Re: Was an innocent man executed?

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Originally Posted by SCY
Kill people to save some cash, that's your stance? SMH. You realize only 37 people have been executed this year, out of a prison population of ~7.3 million? That is a ridiculously miniscule amount of money you're saving. Also, people in prison are already supposed to be guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt. Are you suggesting a sliding scale based on whether someone's "kinda" guilty or "definitely" guilty? I just want to literally rip your post off my screen and toss it in the garbage.
It is retribution and revenge... Plain and simple. I would respect those on the other side of the debate more if they just admitted it.

We have no problem locking up hundreds of thousands of non-violent drug offenders and using tax dollars to pay for their stay, yet those 37 executions are going to break the bank?

Give me a break.
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Old 09-09-2009, 03:50 AM   #34
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Default Re: Was an innocent man executed?

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Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
It is retribution and revenge... Plain and simple. I would respect those on the other side of the debate more if they just admitted it.

We have no problem locking up hundreds of thousands of non-violent drug offenders and using tax dollars to pay for their stay, yet those 37 executions are going to break the bank?

Give me a break.

Many of those same people would happily foot the bill for women who got abortions as well. Personally I think bringing up $ in the first place is morally reprehensible when you're talking about life or death. If you're killing people to save cash, what exactly makes you better than the people you're executing?
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Old 09-09-2009, 03:58 AM   #35
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Default Re: Was an innocent man executed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCY
Kill people to save some cash, that's your stance? SMH. You realize only 37 people have been executed this year, out of a prison population of ~7.3 million? That is a ridiculously miniscule amount of money you're saving. Also, people in prison are already supposed to be guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt. Are you suggesting a sliding scale based on whether someone's "kinda" guilty or "definitely" guilty? I just want to literally rip your post off my screen and toss it in the garbage.


So whats the point of keeping him alive in prison indefinitely if they are beyond a shadow of a doubt guilty? Just so your conscience feels better that you didn't kill a man outright, rather than put him in a box for the rest of his life? Wtf is he going to ever do to make that worth it?

Don't even pretend that there aren't different levels of evidence/guilt for each and every case. I'm sure there are some rock solid serial murderers that are without a shdow of a doubt guilty, and then some no so concrete but enough to get convicted based on A witness kind of ****.

At some point we're going to have to be more practical than worry about all of these people's standards or moral convictions. That means legalize weed and tax it, or only allow the government to sell it. There should be slots in most cities that want them. Cut down on the prison population by executing the worst of prisoners even if its only a few, which also creates a stronger deterrence to commit crime. Prisons need to turn their prisoners into slave labor and learn to make their own money and become profitable. Hell, start a prison line of clothing, furniture, fishing supplies, or even just county landscaping instead of hiring private companies raping the government. I see them picking trash, but they should be doing a lot more crap nobody really wants to do, and especially stuff that would save the counties/state money. No way they should ever have a mentality of preferring to be in prison than out in the real world either. Prison should be a living hell. I mean there is just so much more potential to cut out a lot of the bull**** expenses we all pay for, and for the government to make money in different ways than having to tax us with everything.

Last edited by Smokee : 09-09-2009 at 04:02 AM.
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Old 09-09-2009, 03:58 AM   #36
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Default Re: Was an innocent man executed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCY
Many of those same people would happily foot the bill for women who got abortions as well. Personally I think bringing up $ in the first place is morally reprehensible when you're talking about life or death. If you're killing people to save cash, what exactly makes you better than the people you're executing?

probably poor form to bring up abortion in a discussion about capital punishment. but i get your point... though most people for a woman's right to choose are against the death penalty.

they value a life lived rather than a theoretical life

what death penalty proponents should admit is that their need to indulge feelings is indoctrinating our society with a sense of violent justice, and at the same time taking innocent lives
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Old 09-09-2009, 04:06 AM   #37
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Default Re: Was an innocent man executed?

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Originally Posted by SourGrapes
probably poor form to bring up abortion in a discussion about capital punishment. but i get your point... though most people for a woman's right to choose are against the death penalty.

Well, just because I don't want them thrown in jail doesn't mean I approve of abortions, but obviously I see your point. Kind of late here and missed that obvious connection while typing that out.
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Old 09-09-2009, 04:08 AM   #38
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Default Re: Was an innocent man executed?

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Originally Posted by SourGrapes
probably poor form to bring up abortion in a discussion about capital punishment. but i get your point... though most people for a woman's right to choose are against the death penalty.

they value a life lived rather than a theoretical life

what death penalty proponents should admit is that their need to indulge feelings is indoctrinating our society with a sense of violent justice, and at the same time taking innocent lives


more like making people scared to commit crimes. Hard criminals don't fear prison. If they know the worst they can get is life its not like its nearly as bad as being executed. Possible execution would put fear in people. Our prison system is already soft, it doesn't need to be any softer.
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Old 09-09-2009, 04:11 AM   #39
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Default Re: Was an innocent man executed?

OK, so since I said I'm a proponent (in theory) earlier, I suppose I should defend my position. I previously stated why I don't support the practice, and won't until there's much reform. I honestly don't know what it would take for 100% unquestionable guilt to be proved, I mean other than some video evidence or something. "Expert" testimony has certainly proven faulty many a time, horrible public attorneys who see pleading down to life as a victory and have no interest in filing a not guilty plea, even DNA isn't foolproof. These are all parts of the implementation of the policy that leads me to question every execution as justified or not.

Now, not only is it the things I mentioned above, but also the frequency of death penalty convictions. I don't give a **** about economic ramifications, we're talking about lives. I can't help but feel capital punishment is applied in far too many cases. There are FAR too many potential mitigating circumstances, but unless it is a truly heinous crime (which I admittedly can't define w/o much, much thought), again with undoubtable guilt (again, define that), I don't feel the death penalty should be an option. NOW, in these small number of scenarios that I would deem heinous, which would quite literally take a case by case study to determine if I found it just, I DO believe that certain people deserve to die.

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Old 09-09-2009, 04:15 AM   #40
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Default Re: Was an innocent man executed?

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Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
Just one innocent person being executed is too many and it makes it a totally unjust penalty.

And how can you not grasp my point? I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THIS CASE. It was obvious that his trial was a sham, and a mockery of justice. They IGNORED scientific evidence (or a lack of it entirely), and didn't USE FACTS. I'm talking about modern trials where the guilty aren't convicted based upon a total lack of factual basis and only on opinion. So get off your soapbox and realize the difference. I'm in favor of it ONLY in cases where a crime worthy of death cannot be disputed.

So, for example, people like jeffrey dahmer should be taken out back and have slugs put in their heads.

Last edited by Showtime : 09-09-2009 at 04:20 AM.
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Old 09-09-2009, 04:18 AM   #41
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Default Re: Was an innocent man executed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokee
more like making people scared to commit crimes. Hard criminals don't fear prison. If they know the worst they can get is life its not like its nearly as bad as being executed. Possible execution would put fear in people. Our prison system is already soft, it doesn't need to be any softer.

it's already been proven that the death penalty doesn't deter crime. in fact, it reaffirms that violence toward others is an appropriate course of action

check the stats, bro
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Old 09-09-2009, 04:23 AM   #42
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Default Re: Was an innocent man executed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Showtime
And how can you not grasp my point? I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THIS CASE. It was obvious that his trial was a sham, and a mockery of justice. They IGNORED scientific evidence (or a lack of it entirely), and didn't USE FACTS. I'm talking about modern trials where the guilty aren't convicted based upon a total lack of factual basis and only on opinion. So get off your soapbox and realize the difference. I'm in favor of it ONLY in cases where a crime worthy of death cannot be disputed.

So, for example, people like jeffrey dahmer should be taken out back and have slugs put in their heads.

death penalty is not going to change dahmer. he had an organic problem in his brain. psychopathology is a terrible example
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Old 09-09-2009, 04:25 AM   #43
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Default Re: Was an innocent man executed?

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Originally Posted by Smokee
So whats the point of keeping him alive in prison indefinitely if they are beyond a shadow of a doubt guilty? Just so your conscience feels better that you didn't kill a man outright, rather than put him in a box for the rest of his life? Wtf is he going to ever do to make that worth it?

Shouldn't you be coming up with a reason to kill him? You're gonna need a better one than to save money, because that's criminal.

Quote:
Don't even pretend that there aren't different levels of evidence/guilt for each and every case. I'm sure there are some rock solid serial murderers that are without a shdow of a doubt guilty, and then some no so concrete but enough to get convicted based on A witness kind of ****.

Of course there is, but to actually implement that rips the whole idea of our legal system to f*cking shreds. I don't think I need to explain the absurdity of one inmmate being "Sorta Guilty", and another "Definitely Guilty." That's just stupid.

Quote:
At some point we're going to have to be more practical than worry about all of these people's standards or moral convictions.

Umm...that's what got us into this f*cking mess in the first place. A bunch of money-hungry idiots with dollar signs in their eyes who didn't give a flying f*ck about the consequences of their actions. You want to base our legal system on capitalism? Principles and ethics should be all that governs it.

Quote:
That means legalize weed and tax it, or only allow the government to sell it. There should be slots in most cities that want them. Cut down on the prison population by executing the worst of prisoners even if its only a few, which also creates a stronger deterrence to commit crime.


I'm all for drug legalization and getting non-violent offenders out of jail. That'll do a hell of a lot more for prisons than killing a few inmates. Don't want to quote the other huge block of text, but I agree that prisons are too cushy and they could be put to work more.
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Old 09-09-2009, 04:35 AM   #44
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Default Re: Was an innocent man executed?

I don't believe in the death penalty. I really don't know why we penalize people who are clearly out of their mind. Even psycho's are mentally ill and need to be put in a cell for the rest of their lives.

There are people who have asked to be killed because they were sick and knew it. I don't see that as a penalty, it should be seen as a putting someone out of their misery.

A crime of passion you have to take into consideration the persons state of mind. People are capable of sick things under mental trauma. We need to seperate them from the rest of the population and study them.
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Old 09-09-2009, 04:42 AM   #45
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Default Re: Was an innocent man executed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Showtime
And how can you not grasp my point? I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THIS CASE. It was obvious that his trial was a sham, and a mockery of justice. They IGNORED scientific evidence (or a lack of it entirely), and didn't USE FACTS. I'm talking about modern trials where the guilty aren't convicted based upon a total lack of factual basis and only on opinion. So get off your soapbox and realize the difference. I'm in favor of it ONLY in cases where a crime worthy of death cannot be disputed.

So, for example, people like jeffrey dahmer should be taken out back and have slugs put in their heads.
Why kill these people, though? Is it only for revenge or do you have another motive? I will re-state the undisputed fact that murder rates in states which enforce the death penalty is higher, on average, than states that do not execute prisoners.

It has never been proven on any level by any study that the death penalty is any kind of crime deterrent.

So, is it a revenge thing? I'm honestly curious.

No soapbox, here. I'm certainly allowed to express my opinion on the matter. I don't see how my post was any different from those on the opposite side of the ledger and no one is accusing you of being on a soapbox.

Do you believe that, by committing an act of murder, that a person automatically forfeits their own life and that our oft flawed justice system (it will always be flawed.... there is no way around it, because we are imperfect beings) should be in the business of deciding who lives and who dies? What is your criteria for putting someone to death? Obviously, with the Jeffery Dahmer reference, you aren't going to take into account massive psychological problems.
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