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Old 10-23-2006, 04:21 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Loki
Then define "standing up" for us, Jerm. Because to my mind, standing up would include things like letter-writing campaigns, peaceful protests etc. -- you know, the sort of things that Christians do all the time. Standing up for one's religion should not include things like rioting or any sort of violence, or even the threat of violence.

Most chrisitans I know don't even write letters, they just fold their arms and think it's all good. If the Christians of old kept writing letters, the religion will be extinct by now. You need to go out on the streets, organize peaceful protests. This is actually what the muslims do but your CNN will report it like they're fighting and maiming. They only do that when the local police intervenes in their protests for whatever reason.
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Old 10-23-2006, 04:22 PM   #32
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Well maybe the Christian thing to do would be to allow her to express herself, you know...do unto others....

Isn't that what religion is all about? Peace and harmony....otherwise, what's the point of religion....

Nahh, the christian thing to do is not use the name of God in vain, you know like what she's doing. How is what Madonna planning to do in any way going to promote peace and harmony? How is making fun of someone's religion going to project positive emotions?...I don't get it. If you want peace and harmony, then don't do things that might upset others. It's as simple as that!
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Old 10-23-2006, 04:24 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Jerm
Most chrisitans I know don't even write letters, they just fold their arms and think it's all good. If the Christians of old kept writing letters, the religion will be extinct by now. You need to go out on the streets, organize peaceful protests. This is actually what the muslims do but your CNN will report it like they're fighting and maiming. They only do that when the local police intervenes in their protests for whatever reason.

I know that the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful, and that many of them engage in peaceful protests and other productive actions, but are you seriously suggesting that there is not a sizeable, vocal contingent among the Muslim populace which commits or threatens to commit acts of violence in response to seeming slights against their religion? Are you trying to say that the people in question are only violent when "the police" intervene in their protests? Because I'm sorry to say that that's an utter falsehood.
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Old 10-23-2006, 04:26 PM   #34
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most people didn't vote for freedom of expression, which is scary....

No, most people agreed with NBC's decision not to show it. "Good, I don't care for such symbolism." does not equal "NBC shouldn't be allowed to show such symbolism." I don't know why you seem to think that it does.
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Old 10-23-2006, 04:32 PM   #35
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No, most people agreed with NBC's decision not to show it. "Good, I don't care for such symbolism." does not equal "NBC shouldn't be allowed to show such symbolism." I don't know why you seem to think that it does.

Because it is censorship. NBC has a right to do what they want, but its still censorhip.

Most people should think, "Well, I personally don't want her to use the cross in her performance, but I support her right to express herself as she wants. It's not profanity, nudity or something universally offensive, so I guess she should be allowed to express herself".

In other words, when does it end? Someone could be offended by her low cut dress, or her lyrics, or her haircut....

Unless something is universally offenseive, such as blatant nudity, profanity, something illegal, then let the artist do what she wants. If you are personally offended, simply CHANGE THE CHANNEL.
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Old 10-23-2006, 04:41 PM   #36
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Bagelred, is it cool if they show a live video of a man molesting a young kid?...I mean, it's all freedom of expression and we shouldn't care about who gets hurt.
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Old 10-23-2006, 04:41 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
I know that the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful, and that many of them engage in peaceful protests and other productive actions, but are you seriously suggesting that there is not a sizeable, vocal contingent among the Muslim populace which commits or threatens to commit acts of violence in response to seeming slights against their religion? Are you trying to say that the people in question are only violent when "the police" intervene in their protests? Because I'm sorry to say that that's an utter falsehood.

I never said that and christians haven't been peaceful either in the past. It's just the new generation of christians, they don't know what they stand for.
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Old 10-23-2006, 04:43 PM   #38
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Because it is censorship. NBC has a right to do what they want, but its still censorhip.

It's censorship according to the dictionary, but it's not the censorship most people mean when they talk about "censorship." Sorry that you can't see the difference.

Personally, I support her right to do and say whatever she likes so long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others, as per the libertarian tradition; however, no one is under any obligation to provide her a venue to air her thoughts just because she feels she's special and deserves it. If they were under such an obligation, then they'd be obliged to accommodate everyone -- or are only the rich and famous afforded "free speech"? So unless you feel that privately owned companies like NBC (or the owners of stadiums/arenas etc.) should be compelled to allow people such as Madonna to perform/speak, and that that compulsion should also apply to each of the 300 million men, women, and children in America equally, then you must concede that this is not really a censorship issue per se.


She can get her thoughts out there -- there are no laws against it. She just needs to find a different avenue for the expression thereof, or create one herself. How is that any different from me wanting to get my thoughts heard by the largest number of people, yet being financially prohibited from doing so (because I can't rent out stadiums, take out full-page ads etc.)? No difference, hence no censorship -- unless everyone in America is being censored every day. Or unless rich people have special rights. Take your pick.
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Old 10-23-2006, 04:43 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Jerm
I never said that and christians haven't been peaceful either in the past. It's just the new generation of christians, they don't know what they stand for.
maybe we do know what we're standing for, it just isn't religion.
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Old 10-23-2006, 04:45 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by bagelred
Unless something is universally offenseive, such as blatant nudity, profanity, something illegal, then let the artist do what she wants. If you are personally offended, simply CHANGE THE CHANNEL.

That's the whole point, they don't want people to CHANGE THE CHANNEL. If you're going to do a performance for television, you're going to have to play by television's rules, and rule #1 is to STOP people from changing the channel.

IMO this is simply editing, not censorship. It's the same thing as editing out a song that she sang poorly. Both are done to improve the viewing experience of the audience. Now, if you're a Madonna fan, and you feel cheated by this, you have every right to make your opinion known to NBC. But to me that's simply worrying about the integrity of the art, which is silly because once you've agreed to be on television you've pretty much already sold your artistic integrity.
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Old 10-23-2006, 04:45 PM   #41
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standing for nothing vs. bombing people for sh!ts and giggles...

who wins?
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Old 10-23-2006, 04:46 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerm
I never said that and christians haven't been peaceful either in the past. It's just the new generation of christians, they don't know what they stand for.

And I never said that you said (or implied) that. I think you missed the point of my post, which was basically a question in response to your previous post.
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Old 10-23-2006, 04:49 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Jerm
Bagelred, is it cool if they show a live video of a man molesting a young kid?...I mean, it's all freedom of expression and we shouldn't care about who gets hurt.

A man molesting a young kid is universally offensive. Anything that is universally offensive should not be shown on the airwaves.

Madonna using a cross in her performance is not universally offensive. To many of us, it matters neither one way or the other....
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Old 10-23-2006, 04:50 PM   #44
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there is a fine line between exercising your First Amendment rights (remember, getting arrested for badmouthing the government is an act of sedition, so it bypasses the First Amendment) and doing something out of bad taste.


remember taste is subjective... therefore this thread itself will never come to a conclusion if you want an objective viewpoint of the situation.
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Old 10-23-2006, 04:52 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FPower
That's the whole point, they don't want people to CHANGE THE CHANNEL. If you're going to do a performance for television, you're going to have to play by television's rules, and rule #1 is to STOP people from changing the channel.

IMO this is simply editing, not censorship. It's the same thing as editing out a song that she sang poorly. Both are done to improve the viewing experience of the audience. Now, if you're a Madonna fan, and you feel cheated by this, you have every right to make your opinion known to NBC. But to me that's simply worrying about the integrity of the art, which is silly because once you've agreed to be on television you've pretty much already sold your artistic integrity.

We are not talking about NBC, we are talking about what people think, which is the original poll question.

Most people should be ok with seeing things on TV they might personally not like or care for, simply because you support freedom of expression. THAT's the question.

You know, I personally find evangelical television shows offensive. Many people do. But even though I detest their presence, I support stations right to air them. I simply CHANGE THE CHANNEL.


From a business perspective, sure it might make sense for NBC to censor out the use of the cross...its still censoring....
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