Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > InsideHoops Main Basketball Forums > Off the Court Lounge

Off the Court Lounge Basketball fans talk about everything EXCEPT basketball here

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-23-2006, 05:46 PM   #61
Jerm
I'm trying to improve myself. I'm the new, better Jerm
 
Jerm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Okokomaiko
Posts: 965
Default

If it offends a significant group of people, then shove the word or whatever down your throat.
Jerm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2006, 05:47 PM   #62
bagelred
My team always wins
 
bagelred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 28,330
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerm
If it offends a significant group of people, then shove the word or whatever down your throat.

If it offends a significant group of people, then I'd be interested in hearing what they said....
bagelred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2006, 05:47 PM   #63
FPower
National High School Star
 
FPower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,544
Default

Quote:
You would hope MOST people would say, "Well, I really care about "X" or I too am offended by X, but I support the networks' right to show it?"
That's not what the question asked. I can make these two statements without contradicting myself.

1) "Good, I'm glad NBC chose not to show X."
2) "I support NBC's RIGHT to show X if they want to do so."

I don't see why you think those two statements are mutually exclusive.
FPower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2006, 06:04 PM   #64
Loki
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,079
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerm
I'm out of this thread but my point is:

Stopping someone from offending others isn't a violation of the individual's freedom of expression. You can't expect to live in peace when you keep offending others. Thank you!...Americans are smart enough to recognize that offending others shouldn't be tied to freedom of expression, I wonder where your brains are bagelred.

You're either a Muslim or not acquainted with the finer points of Western political philosophy. I say that because really the only people I've ever heard make that point are Muslims. Don't mean to offend you if you are (a Muslim), but they're really the only people I've heard it from.

Speech will always offend someone -- where do you draw the line? We'd undoubtedly end up in an Orwellian nightmare of a world.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bagelred
They ask 1000 people. Network 123 decided not to show issue "X" because some people were offended. What's your thought on this?

My personal feeling is that it is unfortunate, but merely a natural consequence of the mandate that companies like NBC are held to by their shareholders, which is to maintain profitability. You seem to understand this, because you state:

Quote:
Yes, NBC can do ANYTHING they want. I get it. It's not about them.

However, reading into the poll results further, and asserting that artists should have the "right" to airtime on network television while ignoring the points I raised previously re: consistency is spurious imo.


Also, as to your larger point, reread FPower's post. Choosing one of these options ("Good! I don't care for such symbolism") does not necessarily preclude strongly believing in the other ("It's censorship! Let the artist speak!). For instance, someone like myself might be pleased with the fact that a company deemed it appropriate (appropriate to their bottom line, that is) to not broadcast her performance, because I find the imagery and message distasteful, yet still find censorship abhorrent.


The problem arises because they're conflating two distinct meanings of the word "censorship," one literal, the other practical. Madonna is being censored in the literal sense: NBC is not airing her show due to its content (ignoring the fact that she has no right to their services for the moment); Madonna is not being censored in the practical sense, since there are other avenues for the distribution and broadcast of her performance, and this is perfectly legal. If she were not permitted to show her concert on cable, or on pay per view, or was barred from creating her own TV channel on which to air it, then that would be censorship in the commonly understood sense, and it would indeed be very troubling.


Incidentally, I think this topic can serve as a launching point for an interesting discussion on corporate obligation under the capitalist paradigm, but I suppose that's for another time. But believe me, if you want to take issue with the primacy of the profit motive, and believe that there should be other overriding concerns, you won't get much argument from me.

Last edited by Loki : 10-23-2006 at 06:27 PM.
Loki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2006, 06:05 PM   #65
bagelred
My team always wins
 
bagelred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 28,330
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FPower
That's not what the question asked. I can make these two statements without contradicting myself.

1) "Good, I'm glad NBC chose not to show X."
2) "I support NBC's RIGHT to show X if they want to do so."

I don't see why you think those two statements are mutually exclusive.

Hmm...yeah the Yahoo poll question is a bit poorly worded....

I think most people who answered "Good, I'm glad NBC chose not to show X." also mean, "They SHOULDN'T have the right to show it". I think you are more the exception and not the rule....

Yeah, the options on that Yahoo poll are a bit limiting.... But I still believe given the option of "Good, I'm glad" and "I feel this is censorship"...most Americans should STILL want to answere "I feel this is censorship..." See my point?

Please don't talk about the semantic definition of censorship anymore :)

Last edited by bagelred : 10-23-2006 at 06:09 PM.
bagelred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2006, 06:24 PM   #66
FPower
National High School Star
 
FPower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,544
Default

Quote:
I think you are more the exception and not the rule....

Ahh, there it is. Now we're finally at the point where I know what we're arguing about. I disagree with you, which is why I'm not "nervous". I believe if the poll question had asked "Should NBC be prevented from showing Madonna's performance with the cross?", the vast majority of people would vote "no."
FPower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2006, 06:28 PM   #67
bagelred
My team always wins
 
bagelred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 28,330
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FPower
Ahh, there it is. Now we're finally at the point where I know what we're arguing about. I disagree with you, which is why I'm not "nervous". I believe if the poll question had asked "Should NBC be prevented from showing Madonna's performance with the cross?", the vast majority of people would vote "no."

Yes, there it is.

I believe most people would answer "yes". Most people aren't gonna think it thru like you. I think a large majority of the 53% would answer "Yes" to your question. I think a large majority of that 53% think they DID answer the question that YOU posed. Understand?

OK, now we can agree to disagree....

Last edited by bagelred : 10-23-2006 at 06:30 PM.
bagelred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2006, 06:29 PM   #68
Loki
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,079
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FPower
I believe if the poll question had asked "Should NBC be prevented from showing Madonna's performance with the cross?", the vast majority of people would vote "no."

I agree. Provided it was a poll of all Americans and not just Texas. ;)
Loki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2006, 06:38 PM   #69
bagelred
My team always wins
 
bagelred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 28,330
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
I agree. Provided it was a poll of all Americans and not just Texas. ;)

Remember, I just am talking about the 53% who said "Good"

The other 47% would clearly vote "No"

Of that 53%, I think a large majority think they ALREADY said "It shouldn't be allowed"....
bagelred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2006, 06:51 PM   #70
Loki
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,079
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bagelred
Remember, I just am talking about the 53% who said "Good"

The other 47% would clearly vote "No"

Of that 53%, I think a large majority think they ALREADY said "It shouldn't be allowed"....

I don't necessarily agree. There's really no way to prove it one way or the other, so in my opinion you're letting your own biases, predispositions, and fears factor into your perception of the poll. You can't impute motive when you don't have mutually exclusive categories, or in the absence of other supporting information.
Loki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2006, 06:55 PM   #71
bagelred
My team always wins
 
bagelred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 28,330
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
I don't necessarily agree. There's really no way to prove it one way or the other, so in my opinion you're letting your own biases, predispositions, and fears factor into your perception of the poll. You can't impute motive when you don't have mutually exclusive categories, or in the absence of other supporting information.

Why I am I letting my biasas affect me? You just did the same thing by saying everyone will say no?

I think the way the question was worded, most people already thought that's what was answered, that NBC shouldn't be allowed to show it....

I may be biased in my opinion, but i'm not biased in what I believe people would actually answer....
bagelred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2006, 07:04 PM   #72
Loki
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,079
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bagelred
Why I am I letting my biasas affect me? You just did the same thing by saying everyone will say no?

Yes, except my bias is informed by the fact that we have a Constitution with a pretty famous first amendment; I'm pretty sure people not only know about that, but cherish it. Your "biases" (and I apologize for the negative connotations the word has; I just mean anything you're bringing into the discussion that isn't based on the evidence presented herein) are informed by...what exactly? Fear, it seems (i.e., fear of further censorship, a la the slippery slope argument). But is that fear justified? You'd have to make the case...

Quote:
I may be biased in my opinion, but i'm not biased in what I believe people would actually answer....

No, what you believe people would actually answer is an opinion, not a bias; that opinion, however, can be informed by bias if it predisposes you towards one answer in the absence of compelling evidence. That's all I'm saying.

Last edited by Loki : 10-24-2006 at 11:31 AM.
Loki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2006, 07:09 PM   #73
bagelred
My team always wins
 
bagelred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 28,330
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Yes, except by bias is informed by the fact that we have a Constitution with a pretty famous first amendment; I'm pretty sure people not only know about that, but cherish it.

Are you kidding or are you serious?

Most people would gladly will throw their first amendment rights out the window if the situation suits them.

If you asked the 53% the question:

"Should NBC be allowed to show Madonna's use of the cross in her act?"

Most people would answer "NO". Just a guess, but probalby in the 80%.

Most people don't know what the first amendment is and do not care about it, and probably don't understand why we have it...
bagelred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2006, 07:15 PM   #74
Loki
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,079
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bagelred
Are you kidding or are you serious?

Most people would gladly will throw their first amendment rights out the window if the situation suits them.

If you asked the 53% the question:

"Should NBC be allowed to show Madonna's use of the cross in her act?"

Most people would answer "NO". Just a guess, but probalby in the 80%.

Most people don't know what the first amendment is and do not care about it, and probably don't understand why we have it...

My point is: how can you make the claim in bold? What is it that's informing this opinion of yours? That's an example of your biases at work. Note that the existence of "bias" on your part doesn't necessarily mean that the conclusion you've reached is incorrect, or that your opinion is ill-informed. However, it does require you to adduce further evidence in support of your claim.
Loki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2006, 07:21 PM   #75
bagelred
My team always wins
 
bagelred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 28,330
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
My point is: how can you make the claim in bold? What is it that's informing this opinion of yours? That's an example of your biases at work. Note that the existence of "bias" on your part doesn't necessarily mean that the conclusion you've reached is incorrect, or that your opinion is ill-informed. However, it does require you to adduce further evidence in support of your claim.

OK, you win on that point. I guess you can say its bias.

But it stands to reason that most people who feel strongly that they are happy the cross will not be shown in her act would also feel strongly it should be BANNED from being shown.

Unfortuantely, not everyone is going to reason it out like you have. Most people simply let THEIR biases have them say "They should just ban that", instead of the distinction we are making.

I don't have any data to support it....so you can called it biased. But I still think I'm right.
bagelred is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:23 PM.




NBA Basketball Forum Key Links:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
NBA Mock Draft
NBA Free Agents
All-Star Weekend
---
High School Basketball
Streetball
---
InsideHoops Twitter
Search Our Site













Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy