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Old 10-25-2006, 05:02 PM   #31
Vman23
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Originally Posted by eliteballer
I like how you fail to mention that defense then was a HELL of a lot tougher than it is now. Late 90's-early 00's was maybe the toughest era ever to score in because of defense and the style of play used. Stack put up 21/4/5 on that 50 win team. No "decent starting SG" could have done that. I like how even though Stack played SG, he got almost as many assists as Arenas

Lol, what the hell are you talking about? In 2001-2002, the Eastern Conference was weak as hell, and as far as defenses go, guys like Kobe and T-Mac were putting up very efficient scoring numbers, Stack was probably the most inefficient guy in the league who scored as much.

Stack on a 50 win team-

21ppg on 17 shots, 4.5 apg, 3.9 rpg, 39% fg, 29% 3-pt, no All-Star game.

Please stop making Stack out to be better than he was. Jason Richardson could of done what he did. Most starting SGs could put up those numbers given the shot attempts, and damn near all of them would be more efficient. Rip Hamilton easily filled in his role and made them better.

When Stack put up 29.8ppg, he needed 24 shots to do it, it was one of the most inefficient high scoring seasons we've seen.
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Old 10-25-2006, 05:04 PM   #32
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It would be great if Gilbert was really some inefficient chucker, cause it would lend credence to the idea that he's not that good. But he is efficient, he has a very nice point per shot and TS%. And infact, post All-Star break he did around 31ppg on 47% fg, 41% 3-pt fg.

As far as being a chucker goes, he takes the same amount of shot attempts per 48 minutes as Dwayne Wade. And Gilbert doesn't dominate the ball anywhere near as much as Iverson or Kobe. He doesn't have the same freedom, because if Jamison and Butler don't get their 15 shots each than it's a problem.
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Old 10-25-2006, 05:05 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vman23
Lol, what the hell are you talking about? In 2001-2002, the Eastern Conference was weak as hell, and as far as defenses go, guys like Kobe and T-Mac were putting up very efficient scoring numbers, Stack was probably the most inefficient guy in the league who scored as much.

Stack on a 50 win team-

21ppg on 17 shots, 4.5 apg, 3.9 rpg, 39% fg, 29% 3-pt, no All-Star game.

Please stop making Stack out to be better than he was. Jason Richardson could of done what he did. Most starting SGs could put up those numbers given the shot attempts, and damn near all of them would be more efficient. Rip Hamilton easily filled in his role and made them better.

When Stack put up 29.8ppg, he needed 24 shots to do it, it was one of the most inefficient high scoring seasons we've seen.

The DEFENSE was still a hell of a lot better than it is now. Combine that with a slower more half court oriented game and scoring points was much harder. I don't know where you're getting your numbers son but Stack did 21.4/4.1/5.3 on that 50 win team.
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Old 10-25-2006, 05:07 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by geeWiz15
such things happen when you have the ball in your hands 24/7 which is a luxury that Gilbert has never had... but to say "oh well of course he gets 30/6, he has the ball in his hands all game long" .... no he does not!
You're right. He only has it 98% of the time.

He doesn't have the rock nearly as much of some of the other highly touted perimeter players but he does have the ball a large majority of the time.
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Old 10-25-2006, 05:10 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eliteballer
The DEFENSE was still a hell of a lot better than it is now. Combine that with a slower more half court oriented game and scoring points was much harder. I don't know where you're getting your numbers son but Stack did 21.4/4.1/5.3 on that 50 win team.

21/5/4 on those amazingly bad percentages is still not impressive. Look I've watched Stack alot, his first year with the Wizards he was the same guy he was in Detroit, and that's not even on Gilbert's level. The only stand out thing Stack did on the offensive end was get to the basket, and he wasn't even as good at that as Gil is right now.

Do you know that Stackhouse has the lowest career fg% of any career 20ppg player in NBA history? And this is the guy who you want to say is better than Gilbert Arenas? Get serious dude.
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Old 10-25-2006, 05:17 PM   #36
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I wasnt impressed by Arenas before he played the Bulls. When I lived in DC and watched all his games I wasnt that impressed. Granted hes better now than he was then. But still....I just never got that into his game. At the time he was underrated though. Now he isnt.

As for him being top 20 or not....dont know. dont often think about it. I'll make a list of non Bulls who id rather have and we will see where he falls....

Duncan
Bron
Dirk
Kobe
Tmac
KG
Shaq
Wade
Ming
Artest
Melo(not by a lot)
Pierce
Kidd
Nash
Paul(I dont think hes flat out better than Gilbert though)
Brand
AI
Dwight Howard
VC

Then on the "if healthy" list we have Jermaine Oneal and Pau Gasol.

Thats 21 and we still have Bosh and Marion who im sure many would take. And Ray Allen. Who im also sure many would take.

I dont think Arenas is as low as 25h best in the NBA. But there is a list about that long of players he sure as hell doesnt blow away.

There are only 2 players on that list you could say "Thats not even close" about and they are Paul and Howard if you just go off last year. But I bet a lot of GMS and coaches would take both of them over Arenas if only for potential.

The NBA is at maybe an all time high in guys with whats usually top 10 talent. Most guys in the top 10 3 years ago are still on the same level. Webber fell out. Kidd arguably. While guys like Nash, Wade, Lebron, Brand, VC(from 3 years ago) and some others have risen. There are like 12-15 spots of guys who are on a level that would usually make you top 10.

And I didnt even go into guys like Ben Wallace, Michael Redd, Baron Davis(another "if healthy" pick), AK47, and all them. There is just a really unusually long list of guys playing on a high level. Or at least putting up great numbers.

Arenas has not done anything to make him a shoe in pick for top 15 or so. His greatest accomplishment is beating the youngest playoff team in NBA history without its leading scorer and starting 3. Then losing in the first round. Strictly by numbers hes #12 in eff but with guys like Duncan, Nash, and Tmac behind him its hard to argue that makes him top 15 automatically. He has nothing to make him a lock for either the "Wins are all that matter" crowd or the "Numbers" crowd. And its not like hes dominant in some abstract way like a Shaq or something.

He has the "Look at that PPG" edge that seems to make it dumb not to put him that high. But he wouldnt be the first guy in that 28-30 range to not be top 10. He wouldnt even be the 3rd or 4th off the top of my head.

And Woody Paige just picked Arenas to win MVP on around the horn. Just thought id mention that....

Last edited by Kblaze8855 : 10-25-2006 at 05:20 PM.
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Old 10-25-2006, 05:17 PM   #37
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AI's shot horrible percentages for the majority of his career and I don't see people criticizing him. So the guy didn't put up the best percentages in the world. Arenas shot 39% a couple of years ago and is a career 43% shooter. Stack put up similar overall numbers and led his teams to at least equal success compared to Arenas.
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Old 10-25-2006, 05:22 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eliteballer
AI's shot horrible percentages for the majority of his career and I don't see people criticizing him. So the guy didn't put up the best percentages in the world. Arenas shot 39% a couple of years ago and is a career 43% shooter. Stack put up similar overall numbers and led his teams to at least equal success compared to Arenas.

You must live in a cave, AI has ALWAYS been criticised for his low fg%. That's always been the biggest fault people point to for him.

Arenas shot 39% in a season where he had a groin injury, every other season his percentages have been fine and their even better when you look at his TS% which is a better indicator for guys who take alot of 3s.
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Old 10-25-2006, 05:26 PM   #39
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Yes, but no one denies his overall impact and quality as a player. Arenas has shot 43% or below 3 of his 5 years in the league and that includes a 39% season. Dude isn't terribly efficient either. Hasn't been on a 50 win team like Stack. Did lead his team to the second round, but so did Stack. Hasn't put up a season statistically better than Stackhouse. They are equal so far.
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Old 10-25-2006, 05:29 PM   #40
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[quote=Kblaze8855]I wasnt impressed by Arenas before he played the Bulls. When I lived in DC and watched all his games I wasnt that impressed. Granted hes better now than he was then. But still....I just never got that into his game. At the time he was underrated though. Now he isnt.

As for him being top 20 or not....dont know. dont often think about it. I'll make a list of non Bulls who id rather have and we will see where he falls....

Duncan
Bron
Dirk
Kobe
Tmac
KG
Shaq
Wade
Ming
Artest
Melo(not by a lot)
Pierce
Kidd
Nash
Paul(I dont think hes flat out better than Gilbert though)
Brand
AI
Dwight Howard
VC
be the 3rd or 4th off the top of my head.
QUOTE]

Gee I guess I'll just have to disagree. I don't see anything that going into this season that puts guys like Melo/VC/Kidd/Paul/Dwight/Artet/Pierce or even Iverson above GA and I don't think guys like Redd/Davis/Allen are even close. I think we're just on different pages here, you clearly don't see Gil as an elite perimeter player, and I do, then again I'm a Wizards fan so its expected.
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Old 10-25-2006, 05:30 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eliteballer
Yes, but no one denies his overall impact and quality as a player. Arenas has shot 43% or below 3 of his 5 years in the league and that includes a 39% season. Dude isn't terribly efficient either. Hasn't been on a 50 win team like Stack. Did lead his team to the second round, but so did Stack. Hasn't put up a season statistically better than Stackhouse. They are equal so far.

Arenas last season was statistically better than any of Stack's seasons. I'm not sure why you can't understand that. You also have to put into context that Stack's best season was on a 30 win team, Arenas has turned around a losing franchise and put up 27ppg the last two years on a winning team.

And regular fg% is not a good measure of how efficient you are. You have to look at TS%, Arenas takes alot of 3s which makes his percentages more efficient than they seem.
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Old 10-25-2006, 05:31 PM   #42
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EB could put Stack over Dominique Wilkins with that logic :rollingeyes:
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Old 10-25-2006, 05:34 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
I wasnt impressed by Arenas before he played the Bulls. When I lived in DC and watched all his games I wasnt that impressed. Granted hes better now than he was then. But still....I just never got that into his game. At the time he was underrated though. Now he isnt.

As for him being top 20 or not....dont know. dont often think about it. I'll make a list of non Bulls who id rather have and we will see where he falls....

Duncan
Bron
Dirk
Kobe
Tmac
KG
Shaq
Wade
Ming
Artest
Melo(not by a lot)
Pierce
Kidd
Nash
Paul(I dont think hes flat out better than Gilbert though)
Brand
AI
Dwight Howard
VC

Then on the "if healthy" list we have Jermaine Oneal and Pau Gasol.

Thats 21 and we still have Bosh and Marion who im sure many would take. And Ray Allen. Who im also sure many would take.

I dont think Arenas is as low as 25h best in the NBA. But there is a list about that long of players he sure as hell doesnt blow away.

There are only 2 players on that list you could say "Thats not even close" about and they are Paul and Howard if you just go off last year. But I bet a lot of GMS and coaches would take both of them over Arenas if only for potential.

The NBA is at maybe an all time high in guys with whats usually top 10 talent. Most guys in the top 10 3 years ago are still on the same level. Webber fell out. Kidd arguably. While guys like Nash, Wade, Lebron, Brand, VC(from 3 years ago) and some others have risen. There are like 12-15 spots of guys who are on a level that would usually make you top 10.

And I didnt even go into guys like Ben Wallace, Michael Redd, Baron Davis(another "if healthy" pick), AK47, and all them. There is just a really unusually long list of guys playing on a high level. Or at least putting up great numbers.

Arenas has not done anything to make him a shoe in pick for top 15 or so. His greatest accomplishment is beating the youngest playoff team in NBA history without its leading scorer and starting 3. Then losing in the first round. Strictly by numbers hes #12 in eff but with guys like Duncan, Nash, and Tmac behind him its hard to argue that makes him top 15 automatically. He has nothing to make him a lock for either the "Wins are all that matter" crowd or the "Numbers" crowd. And its not like hes dominant in some abstract way like a Shaq or something.

He has the "Look at that PPG" edge that seems to make it dumb not to put him that high. But he wouldnt be the first guy in that 28-30 range to not be top 10. He wouldnt even be the 3rd or 4th off the top of my head.

And Woody Paige just picked Arenas to win MVP on around the horn. Just thought id mention that....

There's no way in hell Dwight has more impact on a team than Arenas. At least not up until now. Potential doesn't factor into who's top 20 either.
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Old 10-25-2006, 05:57 PM   #44
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If we're talking about upcoming year, I wouldn't put VC or Kidd above Gil, no disrespect to NJ fans. Pierce, Melo, AI are borderline......Artest, depends from which team's perspective...Dwight this year? i think so
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