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Old 11-23-2009, 11:07 PM   #46
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Default Re: Best Point Guard of ALL times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GP_20
Stop confusing peak and prime.

Peak is their absolute best, and prime is when they were considered good or all-star caliber. Stockton had one of the longest primes and peaks.

His peak was 88-95, like you said. Payton's was from 98-02.



But back to topic. In 1996, what happened? 1 year removed from Stockton's peak, and 2 years from Payton's.

Payton dominated Stockton head to head in the WCF. Both were trying to get into the Finals for the 1st time. Payton absolutely dominated. This is as bad as Robinson and Hakeem.
He dominated him? I looked it up and payton averaged 20-6, compared to his regular season of 19-7 and Stockton Average 10-8 compared to regular season of 14-10. I wouldn'r call that domination, Payton played him extremely well on defense, and in the end that was what won them the series, but he didn't dominate him. And Stockton's peak (absoulute best year, as you say) was 1989, so he was 7 years removed, and 96 was easily Payton's best year if you throw in defense, at least in my opinion.
Payton's 23-9-2 on 45% and great defense in no way was better than Stockton's best year of 17-14-3 on 54% shooting, with very good defense, and clutch shooting. Payton was never a good team mate either, which takes away a pretty big chunk of what his stats show.

Last edited by magnax1 : 11-23-2009 at 11:13 PM.
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Old 11-23-2009, 11:15 PM   #47
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Default Re: Best Point Guard of ALL times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai Swoosh
No peak years for Isiah being 1982 / 1983 - 1989 / 1990

He brings more to the game as a PG for me than Magic.

Magic looked great in the 80s faced past free for all style of game.

Isiah can play uptempo as well and also have WAY more impact in a slower half court game given he handled the ball 10x better than Magic ever did ... he could penetrate and score with ease as well as dish to others. I mean Zeke haveraged 10 dimes for his career compared to Magic's 11 apg. And Isiah Thomas didn't play with such dynamic scoring threats like Kareem and Worthy.

He had some players that could hit jumpers, both both Kareem and Worthy were ELITE scorers for their era.

Not to mention it's already known he defended his position better with more tenacity than Magic ever could. I just happen to feel the glitzy aura around Magic and his persona coupled with the success he saw from a stacked team (offensively / defensively) over the course of his career leads him to be OVERRATED

Where as Isiah has had an unfortunate turn of events over the course of his career (post basketball) that lends him to being horrificly underrated.

Dude was 6'0 and simply dominated games.
Well, I guess we would agree to disagree then.

I saw both play live many times, and Isiah was truly great. However, the #1 and #2 trait I look for in PG's is how they control the game, and force/recognize/exploit bad match-ups for themselves and their teammates. Magic, imo, is the GOAT at both of these. Better than MJ, KAJ, Wilt, Russell, and yes, better than Isiah.

In an all time draft, I am sure the GM picking right after you, if both were still on the board, would be ecstatic.
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Old 11-23-2009, 11:31 PM   #48
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Default Re: Best Point Guard of ALL times.

Stop confusing peak and prime.




You are confusing...

Prime goes from ages 21 or 22 (depending on the era) to about 32 or 33 (some players can extend that to 35) where your body beggins to decline athletically: Leap, Potence, Agility, Speed, Quickness looses although your skills and fundamenals remain (some even get better) but your overall Impact of BOTH THINGS isnīt the same anymore

Peak = Best of the Prime


Stocktonīs Peek was 1987-88 (not 88-89 as u say) to 1994-95. In 1988 he broke the All Time Assists Record vs the same dude that had it (Magic) and wth a weaker cast he and Malone (Monster Paint Defender Eaton and Versatile Great Defeder Baily) took the Champions to 7 games.

In a tougher era than the 90s


Peak is their absolute best, and prime is when they were considered good or all-star caliber. Stockton had one of the longest primes and peaks.

His peak was 88-95, like you said. Payton's was from 98-02.

Nope 87-95

But back to topic. In 1996, what happened? 1 year removed from Stockton's peak, and 2 years from Payton's.

You are removing what u like or wish for it is quite clear that a player does not get better physically and canīt impact the same after age 32 or so (athough he might still be able to perform well, be in the top because other superstars have declined or other more rookies and aveage/good role players take a better spot)

Payton dominated Stockton head to head in the WCF. Both were trying to get into the Finals for the 1st time. Payton absolutely dominated. This is as bad as Robinson and Hakeem.

Stockton was 33 years old past PRIME and 4-5 YEARS PAST PHYSICAL PRIME (PHYSICAL PRIME = 18-28)...Payton on the other hand was IN HIS TOTAL PHYSICAL AND GAME PRIME age 27.

Not to mention the Sonics where Better and he had it easier because...

The Jazz where really just Malone-Stockton and some Jeff Hornacek who was ALSO EDGING HIS "PAST PRIME" (as was Malone) and wasnīt as athletically impacting as before while the Sonics was

"PRIME" KEMP-PAYTON..PLUS SHREMP, PERKINGS, HAWKINS, MCMILLAN

Interchanging and Relaxing Minutes....while the Jazz had THREE 32-33 Year Olds That Had to Take The Whole Load:

Perkins and Detlef where Better than any of the Jazzīs players not named Malone-Stockton and "maybe" not gifted athletically aging Hornacek whom had to play almost 40 MPG for the series while the Sonics could relax more because THEY HAD A BETER AND DEEPER TEAM

Simple

ATHLETIC PRIME STOCKTON was a Better or as Good Defender as Any Payton ages 22-29

Defensive Rating

1986-87 NBA 101.9 (6)
1987-88 NBA 102.2 (8)
1988-89 NBA 101.1 (6)


Stockton by the way was a TEAM PLAYER who would not over shoot or make it a 1 on 1 game to proove himself because knowingly and smartly so that he had an OLDER STARTING 5 and LESS DEEP BENCH he had to conserve energy.

Payton was a Better SG than Stockton

Stockton was the Better PG and PLAYER.

He did his Job Better and HE DID WITH A WEAKER CAST than the KEMP-PAYTON-DETLEF-PERKIS SONICS

Greets

Last edited by CB4GOATPF : 11-23-2009 at 11:37 PM.
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Old 11-23-2009, 11:36 PM   #49
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Default Re: Best Point Guard of ALL times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CB4GOATPF
Stop confusing peak and prime.




You are confusing...

Prime goes from ages 21 or 22 (depending on the era) to about 32 or 33 (some players can extend that to 35) where your body beggins to decline athletically: Leap, Potence, Agility, Speed, Quickness looses although your skills and fundamenals remain (some even get better) but your overall Impact of BOTH THINGS isnīt the same anymore

Peak = Best of the Prime[/b]

Stocktonīs Peek was 1987-88 (not 88-89 as u say) to 1994-95. In 1988 he broke the All Time Assists Record vs the same dude that had it (Magic) and wth a weaker cast he and Malone (Monster Paint Defender Eaton and Versatile Great Defeder Baily) took the Champions to 7 games.

In a tougher era than the 90s


Peak is their absolute best, and prime is when they were considered good or all-star caliber. Stockton had one of the longest primes and peaks.

His peak was 88-95, like you said. Payton's was from 98-02.

Nope 87-95

But back to topic. In 1996, what happened? 1 year removed from Stockton's peak, and 2 years from Payton's.

You are removing what u like or wish for it is quite clear that a player does not get better physically and canīt impact the same after age 32 or so (athough he might still be able to perform well, be in the top because other superstars have declined or other more rookies and aveage/good role players take a better spot)

Payton dominated Stockton head to head in the WCF. Both were trying to get into the Finals for the 1st time. Payton absolutely dominated. This is as bad as Robinson and Hakeem.

[b]Stockton was 33 years old past PRIME and 4-5 YEARS PAST PHYSICAL PRIME (PHYSICAL PRIME = 18-28)...Payton on the other hand was IN HIS TOTAL PHYSICAL AND GAME PRIME age 27.

Not to mention the Sonics where Better and he had it easier because...

The Jazz where really just Malone-Stockton and some Jeff Hornacek who was ALSO EDGING HIS "PAST PRIME" (as was Malone) and wasnīt as athletically impacting as befor while the Sonics was

"PRIME" KEMP-PAYTON..PLUS SHREMP, PERKINGS, HAWKINS, MCMILLAN

Interchanging and Relaxing....while the Jazz had THREE 32-33 Year Olds That Had to Take The Whole Load:

Perkins and Detlef where Better than any of the Jazzīs players not named Malone-Stockton and "maybe" not gifted athletically aging Hornacek whom had to play almost 40 MPG for the series while the Sonics could relax more because THEY HAD A BETER AND DEEPER TEAM

Simple

ATHLETIC PRIME STOCKTON was a Better Defender than Any Payton ages 24-30
Stockton by the way was a TEAM PLAYER who would not over shoot to proove himself because knowingly and smartly so that he had an OLDER STARTING 5 and LESS DEEP BENCH he had to conserve energy.

Payton was a Better SG than Stockton

Stockton was the Better PG. He did his Job Better and HE DID WITH A WEAKER CAST than the KEMP-PAYTON-DETLEF-PERKIS SONICS

Greets
You had it all right until there. Stockton wasn't as good as a defender as Payton, they were about equal in help defense, but Payton was a much better one on one defender.
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Old 11-23-2009, 11:39 PM   #50
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Default Re: Best Point Guard of ALL times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnax1
He dominated him? I looked it up and payton averaged 20-6, compared to his regular season of 19-7 and Stockton Average 10-8 compared to regular season of 14-10. I wouldn'r call that domination, Payton played him extremely well on defense, and in the end that was what won them the series, but he didn't dominate him. And Stockton's peak (absoulute best year, as you say) was 1989, so he was 7 years removed, and 96 was easily Payton's best year if you throw in defense, at least in my opinion.
Payton's 23-9-2 on 45% and great defense in no way was better than Stockton's best year of 17-14-3 on 54% shooting, with very good defense, and clutch shooting. Payton was never a good team mate either, which takes away a pretty big chunk of what his stats show.




Game 1:
John Stockton
2/10 4pts 7ast 2reb 1stl

Gary Payton
8/16 21pts 7ast 4reb 3stl


Game 2:
John Stockton
5/8 11pts 7ast 0reb 1stl

Gary Payton
7/16 18pts 8ast 2reb 4stl


Game 3:
John Stockton
2/9 7pts 6ast 2reb 0stl

Gary Payton
11/21 25pts 3ast 6reb 1stl


Game 4:
John Stockton
3/9 7pts 8ast 3reb 3stl

Gary Payton
7/17 19pts 6ast 4reb 0stl


Game 5:
John Stockton
1/6 4pts 6ast 4reb 2stl

Gary Payton
11/17 31pts 6ast 5reb 2stl


Game 6:
John Stockton
5/11 14pts 12ast 2reb 1stl

Gary Payton
3/7 10pts 7ast 9reb 0stl


Game 7:
John Stockton
9/15 22pts 7ast 8reb 4stl

Gary Payton
9/17 21pts 5ast 6reb 1stl



TOTALS

John Stockton

27/68 39.7% 9.8ppg 7.6apg 3.0rpg 1.7spg 3-4

Gary Payton

56/111 50.4% 20.7ppg 6.0apg 5.1rpg 1.6spg 4-3



If that isn't individual domination head to head, than I don't know what is.

Both that season were All-NBA 2nd, thus playing at a similar level. But was this a close battle of 2 All-NBA 2nd PGs? No this was a dominant performance by Gary Payton. Not even close.

This is Robinson vs. Hakeem.
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Old 11-23-2009, 11:40 PM   #51
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Default Re: Best Point Guard of ALL times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnax1
You had it all right until there. Stockton wasn't as good as a defender as Payton, they were about equal in help defense, but Payton was a much better one on one defender.
CB4GOATPF has said Payton isn't even on the same level as Ginobili as a defender. (Because of his stupid Defensive Ratings)


Guy has no crediblity and I'm never going to respond to his stupid posts again after that comment.
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Old 11-23-2009, 11:55 PM   #52
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Default Re: Best Point Guard of ALL times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vert48
Well, I guess we would agree to disagree then.

I saw both play live many times, and Isiah was truly great. However, the #1 and #2 trait I look for in PG's is how they control the game, and force/recognize/exploit bad match-ups for themselves and their teammates. Magic, imo, is the GOAT at both of these. Better than MJ, KAJ, Wilt, Russell, and yes, better than Isiah.

In an all time draft, I am sure the GM picking right after you, if both were still on the board, would be ecstatic.
Well you acted like I f'ed your sister when I said I thought Zeke was better than Magic. I didn't say Magic was bad or anything. But you act as if its blasphemous that I thought that Isiah was better. He lead a significantly less talented team of defenders and good role players (no true star players) to 2 rings. At the very least they are interchangable at the 1 or 2 spot in terms of ranking. I love how people forget Isiah then mention Gary Payton, John Stockton, etc Where would you rank Isiah Thomas?
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Old 11-23-2009, 11:55 PM   #53
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Default Re: Best Point Guard of ALL times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnax1
He dominated him? I looked it up and payton averaged 20-6, compared to his regular season of 19-7 and Stockton Average 10-8 compared to regular season of 14-10. I wouldn'r call that domination, Payton played him extremely well on defense, and in the end that was what won them the series, but he didn't dominate him. And Stockton's peak (absoulute best year, as you say) was 1989, so he was 7 years removed, and 96 was easily Payton's best year if you throw in defense, at least in my opinion.
Payton's 23-9-2 on 45% and great defense in no way was better than Stockton's best year of 17-14-3 on 54% shooting, with very good defense, and clutch shooting. Payton was never a good team mate either, which takes away a pretty big chunk of what his stats show.

Basketball isnīt 1 on 1 game. There are many tyes of Defense. Stockton age 22-29 was as Good Man to Man Defender as Payton later on he declined because he lost a step do to athletic limitations past age 30.

Payton had a better team WITH PRIME KEMP AND HIMSELF...DETLEF (Most Underrated Player of the 90s), PERKINS, DAWKINS, MCGILLAN...full of Great Passers, Defenders, Solid Scorers etc...while Stockton could not relax and it was him and Malone vs the World pretty much.

Defensive Rating doesnīt lie...is no coincidence that the Best Defenders are rankd in the Top 10 constantly every year.

Stocktonīs 1987-88 Year was as insane or better than any

14.7 PPG on only 9.6 FGAs PG
57.4% FG
13.8 APG
2.9 RPG
3.0 SPG
7th in PER,
8th in Defensive Rating
3rd in Offensive Rating
4th in FG%
3rd in TS%
4th in eFG%
1st in Steal % and ofcourse 1st in Assist%

Play-Offs:

19.5 PPG (ONLY 12.2 FGAs PG)
50.7% FG
14.8 APG
4.1 RPG
3.4 SPG

Not to mention in those play-offs he took his Weaker Jazz to 7 Games against powerhouse Show Time Lakers in the Golden Decade of the NBA in Terms of Talent Players and Competition and delivered 24 Assist on Lucky Magicīs face


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_lE70C21ZA



I am tired of people trying to underrated Stockton because of is silent, white boy frame

Stockton at age 37 in an All Star Game (1999-2000) delivered for 10 Points 5/5, 2 Assists and 1 Steal in 11 Minutes

Stockton is the Greatest Pure PG Ever................. by Far

3rd GREATEST PLAYER TO PLAY THAT POSITION that is if you consider Big 0 a PG if not

2nd Only to Magic





End

Last edited by CB4GOATPF : 11-24-2009 at 12:07 AM.
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Old 11-24-2009, 12:06 AM   #54
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Default Re: Best Point Guard of ALL times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai Swoosh
Well you acted like I f'ed your sister when I said I thought Zeke was better than Magic. I didn't say Magic was bad or anything. But you act as if its blasphemous that I thought that Isiah was better. He lead a significantly less talented team of defenders and good role players (no true star players) to 2 rings. At the very least they are interchangable at the 1 or 2 spot in terms of ranking. I love how people forget Isiah then mention Gary Payton, John Stockton, etc Where would you rank Isiah Thomas?

Isiah was Great but overrated...Only thing he was Better than Stockton at was 1 on 1...

HE HAD HE DEEPEST TEAM OF THE LATE 80s

DUMARS: BEST PERIMTER DEFENDER UNDER 6ī4, CLUTCH SHOOTER
LAIMBEER: ONE OF HE BEST REBOUNDERS AND DEFENDERS OF TE DECADE, NOT TO MENTION CLUTCH AS HELL..GREAT SHOOTER
RODMAN: BEST MAN TO MAN AND PERIMETER DEFENDER OF THE 80s, GREAT REBOUNDER PER MINUTE
MAHORN: SOLID REBOUNDER AND POST DEFENDER
SALLEY: GREAT DEFENDER, SHOT BLOCKER AND SOLID REBOUNDER
DANTLEY: BEST MID RANGE OFFESIVE SF EVER, LEAD THE NBA IN SCORING WTH INSANE FG%
AGUIRRE: 20 PPG CALIBER, SOLID DEFENDER AND REBOUDER

To much hype through his Badboy, Rings and being friend of the most protected superstar before MJ...Smily Magic
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Old 11-24-2009, 12:07 AM   #55
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Default Re: Best Point Guard of ALL times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CB4GOATPF
Isiah was Great but overrated...Only thing he was Better than Stockton at was 1 on 1...

HE HAD HE DEEPEST TEAM OF THE LATE 80s

DUMARS: BEST PERIMTER DEFENDER UNDER 6ī4, CLUTCH SHOOTER
LAIMBEER: ONE OF HE BEST REBOUNDERS AND DEFENDERS OF TE DECADE, NOT TO MENTION CLUTCH AS HELL..GREAT SHOOTER
RODMAN: BEST MAN TO MAN AND PERIMETER DEFENDER OF THE 80s, GREAT REBOUNDER PER MINUTE
MAHORN: SOLID REBOUNDER AND POST DEFENDER
SALLEY: GREAT DEFENDER, SHOT BLOCKER AND SOLID REBOUNDER
DANTLEY: BEST MID RANGE OFFESIVE SF EVER, LEAD THE NBA IN SCORING WTH INSANE FG%
AGUIRRE: 20 PPG CALIBER, SOLID DEFENDER AND REBOUDER

To much hype through his Badboy, Rings and being friend of the most protected superstar before MJ...Smily Magic
Isiah was better than Stockton.

It's that easy to see ...
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Old 11-24-2009, 12:17 AM   #56
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Default Re: Best Point Guard of ALL times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai Swoosh
Isiah was better than Stockton.

It's that easy to see ...

How? His Teams Won more Because They Where Better

Stockton only had Malone and Eaton then Hornacek....

Isiah had The Deepest Bench of the 80s after the 86 Celtics and 87 Lakers
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Old 11-24-2009, 12:18 AM   #57
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Default Re: Best Point Guard of ALL times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CB4GOATPF
How? His Teams Won more Because They Where Better

Stockton only had Malone and Eaton then Hornacek....

Isiah had The Deepest Bench of the 80s after the 86 Celtics and 87 Lakers
Even so ... Isiah was still the more dominant individual player.
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Old 11-24-2009, 12:30 AM   #58
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Default Re: Best Point Guard of ALL times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai Swoosh
Well you acted like I f'ed your sister when I said I thought Zeke was better than Magic. I didn't say Magic was bad or anything. But you act as if its blasphemous that I thought that Isiah was better. He lead a significantly less talented team of defenders and good role players (no true star players) to 2 rings. At the very least they are interchangable at the 1 or 2 spot in terms of ranking. I love how people forget Isiah then mention Gary Payton, John Stockton, etc Where would you rank Isiah Thomas?
For me, Isiah is in the 4-6 range, slightly below Stockton, but certainly above Payton. I really like Isiah, but I know of no GM that would take Zeke over Magic.
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Old 11-24-2009, 12:34 AM   #59
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Default Re: Best Point Guard of ALL times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vert48
For me, Isiah is in the 4-6 range, slightly below Stockton, but certainly above Payton. I really like Isiah, but I know of no GM that would take Zeke over Magic.
You talk to GM's?

You rank Stockton and who else above Isiah? Cousy? ... I got to hear this.

Stockton never was as dominant on the court as Isiah Thomas. EVER ...
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Old 11-24-2009, 12:39 AM   #60
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Default Re: Best Point Guard of ALL times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai Swoosh
Even so ... Isiah was still the more dominant individual player.

FG%
ORT
DRT
APG
SPG
Assist%
Stl%
eFG%
TS%
FT%
Prime PER, EFF, Statistical Plus/Minus

Will not agree with u

The only thing Isiah was bettr than Bryant was driving-slashing 1 on 1

After that he was lucky to play with a Great Stacked Teams

Stockton was a Way More Efficient Player than Isiah with a Lesser Level of Teamates sorrounding him
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