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Old 11-29-2009, 02:39 PM   #31
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Default Re: What is talent? (Vince Carter related)

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Originally Posted by elementally morale
So it is totally up to you to decide whether your work ethic will be 'great' or 'bad' then? Or is it sheer luck?

Like the other things I mentioned it depends a great deal on the social environment you were raised, how your parents raised you and what kind of experiences you made in your childhood.
I don't believe that people are born "good" or "evil", "lazy" or "hard-working" (for lack of a better word), but everyone has certain predispositions.

I'm a fairly talented trumpet player and am pretty certain that I would not have reached the level I've reached in trumpet playing had I picked the flute or guitar instead.
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Old 11-29-2009, 02:40 PM   #32
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Default Re: What is talent? (Vince Carter related)

wow an interesting thread on my ISH? no way....


Its a good question, what Im thinking is talent is this innate set of parameters which can be converted into ability though hard work. Having inherent athletic ability: things like long reach, explosive step, or being light on your feet are all talent. A player will go and practice and he will convert these attributes into skill. I guess talent is like raw ability which you just have by the grace of god.
Even mentality is a talent. You can't tell me that having a Jordan or a Chris Paul mentality can be taught. They are just annoying ass OCD dudes that took their obsessive personalities and directed it towards basketball. Even Vince at one point displayed drive, which is a talent, but no one knows what happened and he lost it.

So to sum it up, talent is a set of qualities which you are born with. If you don't apply to anything it'll never turn into ability. You also can't pinpoint talent, or its just really hard. There is also a distinction to be made between being a talented basketball player and being a talented leaper, shooter, or rebound or something. Steve Nash is a talented ball player, he took the talent he had and converted it into ability which allows his to succeed on the court. Rodney Carney on the other hand is a very talented leaper, but he cannot convert that into basketball ability, so he is not as talented of a ball player. In relation to other nba players of course. Vince carter is a talented leaper, shooter, passer, and overall ball player. Possibly as talented as anyone, ever. He also converted it into ability. But unless we get some kind of machine and get inside his brain and follow his career from his rookie season till now, we will never know why he lacks drive or desire.
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Old 11-29-2009, 02:41 PM   #33
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Default Re: What is talent? (Vince Carter related)

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Originally Posted by Brunch@Five
Like the other things I mentioned it depends a great deal on the social environment you were raised, how your parents raised you and what kind of experiences you made in your childhood.

It is called having been lucky, then. You didn't choose your parents, did you?


Quote:
I'm a fairly talented trumpet player and am pretty certain that I would not have reached the level I've reached in trumpet playing had I picked the flute or guitar instead.

Do you consider the selection of the instrument a talent of some sort?
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Old 11-29-2009, 02:42 PM   #34
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Default Re: What is talent? (Vince Carter related)

I think when you're talking about guys at a pro level, especially the elite ones it's very hard to distinguish talent from hard work. Because everyone is talented to some extent and everyone also works hard, though some more than others.

IMO It's easier to pick up talent at a lower level. At a higher level it probably doesn't matter that much when you factor in players' hard work. Let's face it, LeBron, Wade, Kobe, even slackers like McGrady and Carter work damn hard at their games. They're all talented guys. The biggest difference between them is that the former work harder, stay in better shape and so have separated themselves from their peers. You could argue Vince and McGrady are more talented in some respects, especially McGrady, but it really hasn't done much from them towards establishing them as anything more than mere footnotes in Baksetball history.
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Old 11-29-2009, 02:43 PM   #35
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Default Re: What is talent? (Vince Carter related)

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Originally Posted by elementally morale
I mean both.

Had he chosen acting as a profession, he may have turned out to be an average actor. And then at age 25, being a lot slower and weaker you would have given him a basketball. He would play like a tall O'Neal but not like Shaq.

So him having picked up acting as a career option made him less talented as a basketball player? Is the ability to decide which sport/other activity to choose 'talent'? AI could have been great at Football. LBJ, too. Or Shaq at boxing, possibly.

But I'm done with stupid questions like that. I will listen to others' opinions instead. Thx for answering.

I guess I am saying it doesn't matter how potentially talented a player might be. If LeBron James was severely injured as a baby, and was never able to walk, we would not consider him talented. It doesn't matter how much potential baby LeBron had. If you have the physical skill-set, you are talented, no matter how you got there. If you fail in the NBA or whatever other area of life despite your physical skill-set, then you can be considered a wasted talent (whether it is because someone is an alcoholic or just doesn't try or whatever other psychological reason).
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Old 11-29-2009, 02:48 PM   #36
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Default Re: What is talent? (Vince Carter related)

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Originally Posted by elementally morale
It is called having been lucky, then. You didn't choose your parents, did you?




Do you consider the selection of the instrument a talent of some sort?

You could call it luck, I'd call it destiny
Choosing the right instrument is not a talent but luck. Although I'd consider it a talent to recognize talent in someone else, as my eventual teacher told me a trumpet would fit me more than another instrument. If you want me to go into detail I could even tell you why I'm less talented in playing trombone for example, even it's in principle a similar instrument. Has to do with certain predispositions of my body
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Old 11-29-2009, 02:55 PM   #37
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Default Re: What is talent? (Vince Carter related)

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Great Post.

I never understood what talent actually was. But it seems that on these boards, talent has a lot to do with athletic ability. A lot of the posters on these sites chastise GMs for drafting prospects on potential, yet most of them fall in love with guys just for because of there so called "talent". Just my 2 cents.

GM's make the mistake all the time of drafting needs over talent. ALWAYS DRAFT BASED ON SKILL.

Its happened all the time. Look Sam Bowie being taken over Micheal Jordan. Jordan was obviously the most Skilled player in that draft even before he was drafted people knew that. The only person in the country that rivaled him was Len Bias and he wasnt even drafted first either(what happened with him was a unseeable situation).
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Old 11-29-2009, 03:01 PM   #38
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Default Re: What is talent? (Vince Carter related)

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Originally Posted by Brunch@Five
You could call it luck, I'd call it destiny

I'm aight with calling it destiny. It doesn't depend on what you call it. (I think it doesn't... but who knows?)

On the other hand... if you were destined to become a great trumpet player, too, then you can get no extra points for your decisionmaking and hard work, can you? Aaaw man, these things get tricky.


I'm so sad my thread got deleted (the one where I was 'Jeff aka insidehoops' for like an hour). I have it in a downloaded version, but it would be just great to be able to show it to you at this point. Have you read that thread by any chance?

(I'm off for supper, will be back in like an hour.)
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Old 11-29-2009, 03:06 PM   #39
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Default Re: What is talent? (Vince Carter related)

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Originally Posted by elementally morale
I'm aight with calling it destiny. It doesn't depend on what you call it. (I think it doesn't... but who knows?)

On the other hand... if you were destined to become a great trumpet player, too, then you can get no extra points for your decisionmaking and hard work, can you? Aaaw man, these things get tricky.


I'm so sad my thread got deleted (the one where I was 'Jeff aka insidehoops' for like an hour). I have it in a downloaded version, but it would be just great to be able to show it to you at this point. Have you read that thread by any chance?

(I'm off for supper, will be back in like an hour.)

I don't remember that thread, no.
I don't that you cannot control your destiny though, there are always people that succeed despite a bad social environment, and people that fail in spite of a good social environment.
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Old 11-29-2009, 03:13 PM   #40
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Default Re: What is talent? (Vince Carter related)

What about a player like Chauncey Billups, whose coaches say he has no talent, but plays very effective basketball from hard work and high basketball knowledge? Does he really have no talent, or does he just have less talent than other All-Star players of his caliber?

Then we have Jordan Farmar. He is exceptionally fast and has amazing ball handling skills, athleticism, and is a good finisher. He is clearly very talented. Yet he is a below-average point guard. Why?

Last edited by cotdt : 11-29-2009 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 11-29-2009, 03:24 PM   #41
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Default Re: What is talent? (Vince Carter related)

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He is clearly very talented. Yet he is a below-average point guard. Why?

psychology. he doesn't have it upstairs. the fact that time after time people refer to wasted talent, tells us all we need to know about what talent is and what talent is not. farmar has a great physical skill set (what we refer to as talent), but is lacking something in his psyche (that we consider outside talent).
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Old 11-29-2009, 03:34 PM   #42
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Default Re: What is talent? (Vince Carter related)

Talent is atletic ability
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Old 11-29-2009, 03:45 PM   #43
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Default Re: What is talent? (Vince Carter related)

Ive been wondering the same thing. When I asked people said it is a "natural overall skillset" or something like that. All these "talented" high school kids Im wondering what makes them talented?
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Old 11-29-2009, 04:01 PM   #44
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Default Re: What is talent? (Vince Carter related)

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lacking something in his psyche (that we consider outside talent).

You do. I consider it talent. So after all I think Farmar is not that talented. He has great physical abilities, though.
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Old 11-29-2009, 04:17 PM   #45
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Default Re: What is talent? (Vince Carter related)

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OhNoTimNoSho


Just wanted to let you know I liked your answer a lot.
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