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Old 12-07-2009, 11:43 PM   #31
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Default Re: MNF: Ravens at Packers

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Flacco f*ckin sucks...
yup
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Old 12-07-2009, 11:43 PM   #32
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Default Re: MNF: Ravens at Packers

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We've got a game.
We did.
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Old 12-08-2009, 12:22 AM   #33
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Default Re: MNF: Ravens at Packers

Charles Woodson is a total beast. This may be the best season he has ever had, which is incredible, because he had some ridiculously great years in Oakland. He is playing at an incredibly high level right now. That play he made on the goal line in the fourth quarter where he jumped sideways, off of his block and took McGahee's feet out from under him for a 4-yard loss was a Defensive MVP type of play.

He is gaining momentum as DPOY... I hope he gets it. People sort of forgot about him after he left Oakland. The truth is, he has been incredibly good for the last few seasons. People are finally beginning to recognize.

He is the best corner in the league right now and one of the best defensive players of our generation. When he retires, he will deserve some HOF consideration.
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Old 12-08-2009, 12:34 AM   #34
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Default Re: MNF: Ravens at Packers

He's not playing better than Revis.
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Old 12-08-2009, 12:39 AM   #35
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Default Re: MNF: Ravens at Packers

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Originally Posted by Carbine
He's not playing better than Revis.
Woodson- 50 tackles 2 sacks 18 pass deflections 7 ints 2 tds 4 ff

Revis- 36 tackles 28 pass deflections 5 ints 1 td
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Old 12-08-2009, 12:39 AM   #36
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Default Re: MNF: Ravens at Packers

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Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
Charles Woodson is a total beast. This may be the best season he has ever had, which is incredible, because he had some ridiculously great years in Oakland. He is playing at an incredibly high level right now. That play he made on the goal line in the fourth quarter where he jumped sideways, off of his block and took McGahee's feet out from under him for a 4-yard loss was a Defensive MVP type of play.

He is gaining momentum as DPOY... I hope he gets it. People sort of forgot about him after he left Oakland. The truth is, he has been incredibly good for the last few seasons. People are finally beginning to recognize.

He is the best corner in the league right now and one of the best defensive players of our generation. When he retires, he will deserve some HOF consideration.
he made the probowl last year with 7 ints and was generally regarded as the #2 CB in the NFL behind Nnamdi...

I know you were in those draft threads with all of us...he wasn't left out


Woodson had some bad years in which alot of people thought he was really overrated because of his Heisman trophy...I can remember him being compared to Roy Williams (saftey) alot even in "most overrated" lists...

It was when he joined the Packers that people started to change thier views on him...
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Old 12-08-2009, 01:01 AM   #37
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Default Re: MNF: Ravens at Packers

Packers played great. Got a little worried during the 3rd quarter, but unlike past games, the Pack held there ground.

Sitting comfertably at 8-4.

It's a good day to be a Packers fan. We need to stay focussed and not underestimate the Bears. We have to keep this streak up if we want to make it to the playoffs.
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Old 12-08-2009, 01:38 AM   #38
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Default Re: MNF: Ravens at Packers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbine
He's not playing better than Revis.
Revis is arguably a better coverage corner, but Woodson is a better tackler, better against the run and has a knack for making the biggest plays at the biggest times. He is also better at coming with those sneaky corner blitzes.

I believe Chuck has been better than Revis this year, but they have been the two best corners in the league this season and I don't think there is much doubt about that.

Revis is a beast.
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Old 12-08-2009, 01:44 AM   #39
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Default Re: MNF: Ravens at Packers

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~primetime~
he made the probowl last year with 7 ints and was generally regarded as the #2 CB in the NFL behind Nnamdi...

I know you were in those draft threads with all of us...he wasn't left out


Woodson had some bad years in which alot of people thought he was really overrated because of his Heisman trophy...I can remember him being compared to Roy Williams (saftey) alot even in "most overrated" lists...

It was when he joined the Packers that people started to change thier views on him...
He had a couple of down years in Oakland because he was seriously struggling with several injuries, including turf toe (which can be devastating, especially for a corner). He has really never underperformed when he is healthy, so I don't understand anyone thinking that he was ever 'overrated.'

He made the Pro Bowl last year and rightfully so... But I thought that he should have made it the year before, as well, and I don't believe he did. In fact, I think Al Harris made it and Woodson was the best corner on that team even then.

Yeah... He gets respect. I just don't think he has gotten quite enough over the years. It is very difficult for a corner to get into the HOF, but his career deserves some consideration. I'll be curious to see if, when he does retire, any of the talking heads or supposed experts feel the same.

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Old 12-08-2009, 02:00 AM   #40
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Default Re: MNF: Ravens at Packers

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
He had a couple of down years in Oakland because he was seriously struggling with several injuries, including turf toe (which can be devastating, especially for a corner). He has really never underperformed when he is healthy, so I don't understand anyone thinking that he was ever 'overrated.'

He made the Pro Bowl last year and rightfully so... But I thought that he should have made it the year before, as well, and I don't believe he did. In fact, I think Al Harris made it and Woodson was the best corner on that team even then.

Yeah... He gets respect. I just don't think he has gotten quite enough over the years. It is very difficult for a corner to get into the HOF, but his career deserves some consideration. I'll be curious to see if, when he does retire, any of the talking heads or supposed experts feel the same.
I can just remember alot of people talking about how he wasn't deserving of his first four probowls...he went 1998/1999/2000/2001

they didn't record tackles till 2001, but in 2001 he only had 1 pick and 39 tackles...

in 1999 he only had 1 pick...

his turf toe started in 2000...

he had A TON of hype coming out of college, being the only defender to win the Hiesman...so alot of people thought the probowls were just off his name/hype, and not his playing...

then in 2003 it looks like he missed 8 games for a shoulder injury

then in 2004 he broke his leg...

so yeah, by the time he got to Green Bay, he was probably seen as an overrated bust...washed up / injury plagued / ect...but he showed everyone up...


not really sure if he has had a HOF career as of right now...but it looks like he still has alot left...
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Old 12-08-2009, 02:11 AM   #41
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Default Re: MNF: Ravens at Packers

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~primetime~
I can just remember alot of people talking about how he wasn't deserving of his first four probowls...he went 1998/1999/2000/2001

they didn't record tackles till 2001, but in 2001 he only had 1 pick and 39 tackles...

in 1999 he only had 1 pick...

his turf toe started in 2000...

he had A TON of hype coming out of college, being the only defender to win the Hiesman...so alot of people thought the probowls were just off his name/hype, and not his playing...

then in 2003 it looks like he missed 8 games for a shoulder injury

then in 2004 he broke his leg...

so yeah, by the time he got to Green Bay, he was probably seen as an overrated bust...washed up / injury plagued / ect...but he showed everyone up...


not really sure if he has had a HOF career as of right now...but it looks like he still has alot left...
His tackles and picks weren't as high early in his career because he was a true shutdown corner as a young player. It is sort of hard to compile tackles, interceptions and deflections as a cornerback if you are literally never being tested by QBs.

Woodson was arguably the best shutdown corner in the league during his first handful of years in Oakland.

As his career has gone on, he has sort of lost some of that on-top speed that made him a great shutdown corner, but he has added things to make up for it. He was always a great tackler, but he has improved significantly in that area. He seems to have grasped the mind games of the position and you will see him lining up all over the field and disguising/timing his blitzes very well. He may have also improved his break on the football when he is thrown at (more these days than early in his career).

Statistics never tell you the whole story, especially when it comes to corners. Generally, if you are a full-time starting CB and you don't have a ton of tackles and interceptions, chances are you are doing your job very well.
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Old 12-08-2009, 02:25 AM   #42
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Default Re: MNF: Ravens at Packers

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
His tackles and picks weren't as high early in his career because he was a true shutdown corner as a young player. It is sort of hard to compile tackles, interceptions and deflections as a cornerback if you are literally never being tested by QBs.

Woodson was arguably the best shutdown corner in the league during his first handful of years in Oakland.

As his career has gone on, he has sort of lost some of that on-top speed that made him a great shutdown corner, but he has added things to make up for it. He was always a great tackler, but he has improved significantly in that area. He seems to have grasped the mind games of the position and you will see him lining up all over the field and disguising/timing his blitzes very well. He may have also improved his break on the football when he is thrown at (more these days than early in his career).

Statistics never tell you the whole story, especially when it comes to corners. Generally, if you are a full-time starting CB and you don't have a ton of tackles and interceptions, chances are you are doing your job very well.
that just isn't what I remember hearing at all...

here is an old artcle by the Oakland Tribune I found:

Bottom line: Woodson overrated
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n16184222/
Oakland Tribune, Feb 25, 2006


I am telling you, there was a time when people started to talk about how Roy Williams was overrated as a saftey and didn't deserve his probowls, and I always remember people saying the exact seem thing about Woodson along with that...it was like they were considered the two most overrated players in the NFL at one point in time...the two of them went hand-in-hand in people's eyes...
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Old 12-08-2009, 02:46 AM   #43
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Default Re: MNF: Ravens at Packers

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~primetime~
that just isn't what I remember hearing at all...

here is an old artcle by the Oakland Tribune I found:

Bottom line: Woodson overrated
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n16184222/
Oakland Tribune, Feb 25, 2006


I am telling you, there was a time when people started to talk about how Roy Williams was overrated as a saftey and didn't deserve his probowls, and I always remember people saying the exact seem thing about Woodson along with that...it was like they were considered the two most overrated players in the NFL at one point in time...the two of them went hand-in-hand in people's eyes...
That is one of the most poorly written articles I have ever read. It gives me great hope, as an aspiring journalist. Are you sure that this is from the Oakland Tribune? It looks like a random blog posting, to me (and is written like one).

His arguments for Woodson being a disappointment were that he hadn't thrived as a receiver in the NFL and he hadn't had a lot of kick returns for TDs.

I'm a Michigan fan and I watched Woodson when he was a great RB for Fremont High School in Ohio. I've followed his career very closely, as he is probably my favorite college player of all-time.

To hear this revisionist history that he was 'overrated' in Oakland is totally ridiculous and I certainly don't remember hearing anything even close to that during his first five years in the league. When he began struggling with injury, people suddenly had a short memory (like this article, which was written while C-Wood was still recovering).

I remember his early years in Oakland well... He was a great, great player. I would watch the Raiders play specifically to see how he was doing in the NFL and the answer was clear each and every weekend.

For this guy to bring up offensive receptions and kick/punt returns when evaluating the career of a cornerback... It doesn't warrant even being discussed. Those things would be a bonus for a player like Woodson, not something that you base a guy's career on.
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Old 12-08-2009, 02:50 AM   #44
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Default Re: MNF: Ravens at Packers

here is the Sporting News "ALL OVERRATED TEAM" from 2005:



Imagine a football team that included 14 players who were first-round draft picks and 15 players who had been selected to a combined 57 Pro Bowls. With all that talent, you'd think it would be a Super Bowl lock. What we have, instead, is the NFL's all-overrated team.



The Sporting News assembled a panel of eight NFL scouts (one from each division) and two TV analysts and asked them to pick the most overrated players at each position. Some will surprise you, and some won't.



Photo gallery ...

NFL's most overrated


Quarterback


Joey Harrington, Lions. Expectations were high for Harrington, the third overall pick in the 2002 draft, but after almost three seasons he still is inconsistent. "He looks confused and doesn't look like he's playing with confidence, " says one NFC scout. You can't argue the Lions haven't improved the talent around him. In the past two years, they've added running back Kevin Jones and receivers Charles Rogers (who has twice broken his collar-bone and played in just six games in two seasons) and Roy Williams.


Running backs


Kevan Barlow, 49ers. One scout questioned whether the 49ers should have released Garrison Hearst after last season and "passed the torch" to Barlow, an inside power runner with adequate speed. He says Barlow is "terrible" at picking up the blitz. "In the West Coast system, that'll kill you." In Barlow's defense, he has not had much blocking help.


Mike Alstott, Bucs. He has the reputation of a short-yardage, power runner who is an above-average blocker and can catch the ball. But he doesn't do those things as well as he did three years ago. "He's not the same physical, explosive, dominant guy, " says an AFC scout.


Wide receivers


Keyshawn Johnson's much-hyped "breakaway speed" is more myth than reality. (Jonathan Daniel / GettyImages)


Keyshawn Johnson, Cowboys. The perception is Johnson is a vertical threat who can outrun corners and make big plays. The reality: He is a possession receiver who can position himself to make catches against smaller defensive backs but has trouble breaking press coverage. "A lot more smoke than fire, " says an NFC scout.


Peerless Price, Falcons. To acquire Price in 2003, Atlanta traded a first-round pick to Buffalo and gave Price a big contract. The Falcons have not reaped nearly enough from their investment. Price is fast and quick, but sometimes he runs out of control, and he hasn't made enough big plays for someone who is supposed to be a No. 1 receiver.


Tight end


Jeremy Shockey, Giants. His production has not matched his athletic ability. One explanation might be he hasn't fully recovered from offseason foot surgery. Another is that he has been asked to do more blocking this season, which limits his chances to make plays.


Offensive tackles


Chris Samuels, Redskins. Some observers compared Samuels to Jonathan Ogden, Walter Jones and Orlando Pace when he was the third pick overall in 2000. Nobody is grouping him with those elite left tackles now. One scout described Samuels as a heavy-footed guy who gets beat on bull rushes and is lazy at times.


Luke Petitgout, Giants. Back problems have slowed Petitgout, but they don't account entirely for his mediocre play. He gets beat by power moves, and he gets beat by quickness. "Here's a guy who's supposed to be the anchor of that Giants line, " says an NFC scout.


Guards


Ruben Brown, Bears. Some scouts think Brown, whose season was ended in late November by a neck injury, has been living off his reputation as an eight-time Pro Bowl player. When he pulls and gets out in space, he is an athletic lineman. When he's asked to anchor inside and be physical, he doesn't do as well.


Damien Woody, Lions. Woody, a first-round pick by the Patriots in 1999, has great athletic ability, but he underachieved in New England before getting a big free-agent deal from Detroit after last season. "Once he got the money, he went from being a good, solid, dependable player to just a guy, " says an NFC scout.


Center


Kevin Mawae, Jets. The only center who received more than one vote, Mawae is the choice by default. One scout's take: "I think people are enamored with the fact he's athletic and can pull. But when he's got to be man-on-man, the fight is a little different. He doesn't show up as a guy who will anchor and stop a bull rush."


Defensive ends


Marcellus Wiley, Cowboys. Jerry Jones paid Wiley big bucks to come in and be a three-down, high-impact end who could both stop the run and rush the passer. It took Wiley 11 weeks to come up with his first sack of the season.


Grant Wistrom, Seahawks. Wistrom, who landed a $14 million bonus when he signed as a free agent with Seattle, plays with intensity and effort, but the production is rarely there. He struggles to get off blocks and most offensive tackles can handle him without help. "You've got to respect him, " says an AFC scout, "but you don't have to fear him."


Defensive tackles


Chris Hovan, Vikings. He made his reputation as a disruptive defender by out-quicking opponents with his initial movement off the snap. Somewhere, he lost that and now teams seem to have figured him out. "He's got all these arms and legs and elbows thrashing around, but he's never really going anywhere, " says an NFC scout.


Warren Sapp, Raiders. Sapp's play started declining before he departed Tampa as a free agent after last season. Once the best 3 technique tackle in the league who was a mismatch inside because of his explosiveness and quickness, he is out of place when he lines up at end in the Raiders' 3-4 scheme.


Linebackers


Brian Urlacher, Bears. He gets plenty of hype as one of the best in the game, but here are the facts: he needs to be shielded by defensive tackles who can keep offensive linemen off him and he takes himself out of far too many plays."He hurts (the Bears) as much as he helps them, " says one scout.


LaVarr Arrington should concentrate less on celebrating and more on fundamentals. (Doug Pensinger / GettyImages)


LaVar Arrington, Redskins. Arrington, who has missed most of this season after knee surgery in September, is a contradiction. He makes plays in areas where he shouldn't be and misses them in areas where he's supposed to be. He'll read one play and close the gap quickly, then misread the next play and take himself out of position. "He free-lances a bit and tries to make the big hit when he just needs to play the position and make tackles, " says an AFC scout.


Zach Thomas, Dolphins. A tough, blue-collar player who is undersized (5-11, 230) for a middle linebacker, Thomas can make a ton of tackles when he's protected by his defensive linemen. When he doesn't get that protection, he can become lost in space.


Cornerbacks


Charles Woodson, Raiders. He's a gambler who tries to bait teams into throwing at him so he can make interceptions. But he gives up a lot more big plays than he makes. Woodson also doesn't show a lot of intensity and isn't big on run support. "His bite isn't as good as his bark, " says an AFC scout.


Dre' Bly, Lions. He had six interceptions en route to his first Pro Bowl last season, but Bly is more of a solid No. 2 corner than a dominant No. 1. He gets beat on jump balls by bigger receivers, guesses too often and gives up a lot of plays.


Safeties


Tebucky Jones, Saints. He can get from Point A to Point B as fast as anyone. But what Jones possesses in speed, he lacks in instincts. "He's all over the place, " says an NFC scout. "You just can't trust him."


John Lynch, Broncos. Age and injuries have reduced Lynch to a one-dimensional player. He still can deliver a hit that will rattle your ribs, but he lacks the speed to be a good cover safety and needs to play near the line of scrimmage to be most effective.
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Old 12-08-2009, 02:53 AM   #45
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Default Re: MNF: Ravens at Packers

Once again... 2005. I don't see what that proves. If you find an article from 1999-2004, it will have a bearing on this conversation.

He was suffering through serious injuries from around the middle of 2004-06. Maybe even a little earlier than that. I also like that they criticize his 'run support.' That has always been a strength of Woodson, which should have been a tipoff to these writers that he was hurting and couldn't come up and make the big stops like he would normally do.

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