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Old 01-27-2010, 10:45 AM   #16
jlawdrummer
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Default Re: Bogut should make the all-star team

Yes, agree with Chuck here.

Lee also leads all Centers in apg. Bogut is a solid passing big, but Lee is really approaching Point-Center position lately.
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Old 01-27-2010, 10:45 AM   #17
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Default Re: Bogut should make the all-star team

Besides it's not like positions matter in the ASG

The guards could be 2 PG or 2 SG
The forwards could be 2 SF or 2 PF
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Old 01-27-2010, 10:50 AM   #18
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Default Re: Bogut should make the all-star team

When do they announce the coaches picks?
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Old 01-27-2010, 10:51 AM   #19
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Default Re: Bogut should make the all-star team

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckOakley
I would call someone who plays almost all of their minutes at a certain position, that position.
So what if the Knicks issue a press release that says that Lee is their point guard and Nate Robinson is their center, and they employ cross-matchups with their point guard defending the other team's center? Does that make him a point guard?

I know I'm reaching here, but I feel that Lee is as obvious a power forward as there's ever been. I disagree that playing people out of position actually makes them that position. If Steve Nash and Chris Paul were on the same team, they'd probably both start, but would that really make one of them a shooting guard?

Quote:
Besides it's the all-star game.. since when does defense matter?
Rebounding and transition play is much more important.. Lee's speciality.
Lee would be great in the all-star game, but he still shouldn't be there in the first place, unless he qualifies as one of the best PFs in the East, since that's what he is.

I actually happen to think that Lee does qualify as one of the best PFs in the East. It's Bosh, Lee, Garnett in that order if we're going by this season's play, or Bosh, Garnett, Lee if we include the second half of last season (which ought to count towards some all-star game, right?).

As an alternative, I would be totally ok with the NBA changing the all-star criteria altogether, so that the fans and coaches select X number of bigs, X number of wings, and X number of point guards. But if they continue to say "vote for a center," then I think only centers should be eligible for that particular vote.
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Old 01-27-2010, 10:51 AM   #20
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Default Re: Bogut should make the all-star team

It looks like Bogut is as deserving as anyone else, but the overall weakness of the center position is now giving me a dim hope for Perk on some "his team is winning" bs.
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Old 01-27-2010, 10:52 AM   #21
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Default Re: Bogut should make the all-star team

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlawdrummer
Yes, agree with Chuck here.

Lee also leads all Centers in apg. Bogut is a solid passing big, but Lee is really approaching Point-Center position lately.
Chris Paul leads all centers in APG, as long as we're ranking people on lists they don't belong on.
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Old 01-27-2010, 10:55 AM   #22
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Default Re: Bogut should make the all-star team

Quote:
Originally Posted by adamcz
Chris Paul leads all centers in APG, as long as we're ranking people on lists they don't belong on.

You're beyond reaching here adam, IMO. Lee plays C every day for 35+ minutes...Paul plays PG all the time. I agree, Lee has a PF body...but the guy plays C for his team, so he definitely deserves to be classified as a C in the voting.
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Old 01-27-2010, 10:57 AM   #23
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Default Re: Bogut should make the all-star team

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlawdrummer
You're beyond reaching here adam, IMO. Lee plays C every day for 35+ minutes.
So does Tim Duncan, but people keep calling him a PF (even though I disagree, and think he is a C).

Quote:
I agree, Lee has a PF body...but the guy plays C for his team, so he definitely deserves to be classified as a C in the voting.
So theoretically if Nash, Paul, and Deron Williams played on the same team, you would consider one of them a forward?
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Old 01-27-2010, 10:59 AM   #24
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Default Re: Bogut should make the all-star team

Quote:
Originally Posted by adamcz
So what if the Knicks issue a press release that says that Lee is their point guard and Nate Robinson is their center, and they employ cross-matchups with their point guard defending the other team's center? Does that make him a point guard?

I know I'm reaching here, but I feel that Lee is as obvious a power forward as there's ever been. I disagree that playing people out of position actually makes them that position. If Steve Nash and Chris Paul were on the same team, they'd probably both start, but would that really make one of them a shooting guard?

Lee would be great in the all-star game, but he still shouldn't be there in the first place, unless he qualifies as one of the best PFs in the East, since that's what he is.

I actually happen to think that Lee does qualify as one of the best PFs in the East. It's Bosh, Lee, Garnett in that order if we're going by this season's play, or Bosh, Garnett, Lee if we include the second half of last season (which ought to count towards some all-star game, right?).

As an alternative, I would be totally ok with the NBA changing the all-star criteria altogether, so that the fans and coaches select X number of bigs, X number of wings, and X number of point guards. But if they continue to say "vote for a center," then I think only centers should be eligible for that particular vote.

I think that is an absolute reach and I don't see it.

NY lists Lee at C since that is where plays for them much like every team tries to do accurately. Only SAS and Duncan has really tried to manipulate the process to get him in.

Meanwhile Amare is not a C by both play, and the fact Frye and Lopez play C, yet he is the starting C for the West.

And really aren't half the players that play Center these days forwards, or what would have been forwards in other eras?

Lee
Jefferson
Horford
Barganani
Amare
Okur
Krstic
Hawes
Hayes
etc..

Why discrimate against Lee?
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Old 01-27-2010, 11:05 AM   #25
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Default Re: Bogut should make the all-star team

Quote:
Originally Posted by adamcz
So does Tim Duncan, but people keep calling him a PF (even though I disagree, and think he is a C).

So theoretically if Nash, Paul, and Deron Williams played on the same team, you would consider one of them a forward?

Well yea, if theoretically that ever happened (which it wouldn't, they'd trade for a legit SF or big or something), one of those guys would be a SF, because that's where he plays.

Again, you are going beyond reaching, you're just throwing out things that NEVER EVER EVER happen. It's not even worth the "theoretical" talk really, because it's so far off base, it would never happen.
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Old 01-27-2010, 11:14 AM   #26
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Default Re: Bogut should make the all-star team

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckOakley
And really aren't half the players that play Center these days forwards, or what would have been forwards in other eras?

Lee
Jefferson
Horford
Barganani
Amare
Okur
Krstic
Hawes
Hayes
etc..

Why discrimate against Lee?
Because Lee is the only guy relevant to this thread, since he might be named to the all-star team as a center. If Bargnani were the candidate, then I'd be talking about him instead. Also, I think I consider Krstic and Hawes to be centers - I'd have to "scout" them more to tell you for sure.

I just think it's silly to say that Lee and Karl Malone don't play the same position, and that actually Lee and Shaq play the same position. Lee is one of the most prototypical PFs that there's ever been.

And you guys are saying that NY plays him at center... they really don't. NY doesn't play a center at all - they play two PFs.

The prime responsiblity of a center is to anchor the defense, and usually to play in the post on offense. That's why Ben Wallace was an actual center even though he was short. David Lee doesn't even pretend to control the paint. What does he do on the court that is center-like aside from taking the jump ball?
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Old 01-27-2010, 11:21 AM   #27
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Default Re: Bogut should make the all-star team

Quote:
Originally Posted by adamcz
Because Lee is the only guy relevant to this thread, since he might be named to the all-star team as a center. If Bargnani were the candidate, then I'd be talking about him instead. Also, I think I consider Krstic and Hawes to be centers - I'd have to "scout" them more to tell you for sure.

I just think it's silly to say that Lee and Karl Malone don't play the same position, and that actually Lee and Shaq play the same position. Lee is one of the most prototypical PFs that there's ever been.

And you guys are saying that NY plays him at center... they really don't. NY doesn't play a center at all - they play two PFs.

The prime responsiblity of a center is to anchor the defense, and usually to play in the post on offense. That's why Ben Wallace was an actual center even though he was short. David Lee doesn't even pretend to control the paint. What does he do on the court that is center-like aside from taking the jump ball?

It's only relevant because you want Bogut in.

Jefferson and Horford warrant AS consideration as well
Amare is the West starting C

And you get my point and don't need to watch Krsitc (I can tell you when he was a Net, he doesn't exude C qualities either), and Hawes spend alot of time outside of the paint.

Are you saying most of these people should not be on the ballot or eligible for the C position in the ASG?

As for what Lee does as the NYK C.
He generally plays the opposing C, or best big man.
He controls the glass
He scores on alot of put backs and roams the paint for passes and easy baskets.
His ability to rebound and finish around the rim forces opposing C's to stay in the pain, opening up space for NY's Fs to shoot.
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Old 01-27-2010, 11:30 AM   #28
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Default Re: Bogut should make the all-star team

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckOakley
It's only relevant because you want Bogut in.

Jefferson and Horford warrant AS consideration as well
Amare is the West starting C
I already made a thread long ago about how dumb it was that they called Amare a C and Duncan a PF on the same ballot.

Quote:
Are you saying most of these people should not be on the ballot or eligible for the C position in the ASG?
I'm saying that they fail at life.

No, I'm saying one of two things should happen.
-The NBA allows only centers to be listed under the center category.
-The NBA changes the categories to "bigs" and "wings"

Call me OCD if you want, but I demand consistency and logic, and it bothers me when I don't see it.

Quote:
As for what Lee does as the NYK C.
He generally plays the opposing C, or best big man.
I agree that he stands in their vacinity, but I don't know if I agree that he's guarding them.

Quote:
He controls the glass
He scores on alot of put backs and roams the paint for passes and easy baskets.
His ability to rebound and finish around the rim forces opposing C's to stay in the pain, opening up space for NY's Fs to shoot.
True.
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Old 01-27-2010, 11:37 AM   #29
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Default Re: Bogut should make the all-star team

Quote:
Originally Posted by adamcz
I

No, I'm saying one of two things should happen.
-The NBA allows only centers to be listed under the center category.
-The NBA changes the categories to "bigs" and "wings"


Ok, but what is a C?

If out of the 30 starting Centers in the NBA, only 15 fit your defintion of what a Center should be, does that mean the other 15 starting Cs should not be eligbile?

How subjective would that be?
They would be basing it on height, weight, blocked shots, percentage of points scored in the paint?


Bigs and wings make some more sense, but even that's gets dicey. Is their a height requirement? Where does a player like Josh Smith fit? Boris Diaw? Thad Young? Jeff Green? etc.


I think the only way to do it that doesn't lend too much subjetcivity is to go
with where the team lists them. I really doubt we are going to see teams manipulating their "listings" or whatever just for the outside chance of getting a player in the ASG.

Would you be happy with the fans pick 5 players (any position) and then the coaches pick 7 (any position)? That seems to be "fair" at least.
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Old 01-27-2010, 11:42 AM   #30
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Default Re: Bogut should make the all-star team

NBA.com agrees with you
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