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Old 01-27-2010, 05:34 PM   #16
Roundball_Rock
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

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And yes Kobe and Jordan faced the worst because of it.

And really the second most historically relevant swingman of the 90s is probably Reggie Miller who was never close to elite. Hill, Penny, and Spre had some runs but quite brief. Drexler fell off after like 92 or 93.

Great point. We are seeing a similar thing with centers today. If Rony Seiklay played today he would be the best center behind Dwight and Yao.

The only disagreement I have is the second most relevant swingman of the 90's is Pippen.

Now waits for Team Jordan to argue how Nick Anderson was more historically relevant than Pippen
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Old 01-27-2010, 05:37 PM   #17
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

Who was Jordan's chief competition teamwise while he was winning his rings in the 90s? What teams were perennially good enough to consistently make the finals (in the West) or the conference finals (in the East)? Ewing/Stark Knicks and Malone/Stock Jazz surrounded by trash? Keep in mind he is going into these matchups with the better team every time. If not better, at least close enough that his individual brilliance over the other player, whether it be Barkley, Drexler, Payton or old Magic, made the difference, as these were never GOAT level players.

Jordan fans have said that Ewing/Starks Knicks were the strongest competition he faced...um, you do realize Pippen WITHOUT Jordan would have beaten arguably the best of those Knicks teams if not for a bogus call? Hakeem with trash beat them too. Some competition that is . Bulls with a lineup of Wilt, Russell or Kareem/Grant/Pippen definitely wouldn't win 6 rings minimum in this era, right? How would you even score on that team?

Wilt had to go against Russell's Celtics, Kareem/Oscar Bucks. Bird against the Erving/Malone Sixers, Magic/Kareem/Worthy Lakers. Kareem against Wilt/West's Lakers (arguably GOAT team), Thurmond/Barry Warriors, Cowens/Havlichek Celtics (which was incredibly deep, much more so than Kareem's team). Magic had to go against Bird's Celtics, Moses/Erving Sixers. Duncan had to go against Shaq/Kobe Lakers nearly every year (Shaq another GOAT candidate). And yet Jordan fans have the shame to dismiss pre-merger NBA and post-Jordan NBA as weak

I think if we moved this from individuals to teams, Jordan would still be last. His individual AND team competition doesn't compare to any of the other GOAT candidates...yet this dude is the consensus greatest? How the hell did this happen

Last edited by Fatal9 : 01-27-2010 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 01-27-2010, 05:40 PM   #18
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

Well yea Pippen is easily #2 but I didnt consider him for obvious reasons.

And yes rony would be #3 to me. Maybe #2 depending on who is coaching Yao and his health.
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Old 01-27-2010, 05:55 PM   #19
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

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Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock


If we did that for everyone the OP would be triple the length. Should we add all the power forwards Hakeem faced when he played PF too? Or Byron Russell for Jordan since Russell guarded Jordan? Scottie Pippen for Magic Johnson? Rodman for Shaq?



The same can be done with everyone else.

So then why are Duncan and Shaq considered each other's competition despite Timmy being a power forward and Shaq being a center?


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Really? Let's give prime Richmond the GOAT perimeter defender to help him contain Jordan and then see what happens. Let's also throw in a 20 ppg scorer who the opposing defense has to pay some attention to. Richmond was playing on trash teams in his prime. Jordan was the better player but if prime Richmond faced MJ in the playoffs I could see Richmond conceivably outplaying Jordan in a series during the 1995-98 era. He probably would not but it would be possible--especially if you switched their teams.

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Old 01-27-2010, 06:12 PM   #20
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

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Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Well yea Pippen is easily #2 but I didnt consider him for obvious reasons.

And yes rony would be #3 to me. Maybe #2 depending on who is coaching Yao and his health.

I know. I pointed it out for the benefit of younger fans. Many of them think Pippen was just another run-of-the-mill top 10 player a la Roy.

Good point on the question marks surrounding Yao. What a joke. Seikaly could have been the second best center in 2010. Do you think this weakness at the C position will be factored in when Howard is assessed historically? I would have to think so.

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Who was Jordan's chief competition teamwise while he was winning his rings in the 90s? What teams were perennially good enough to consistently make the finals (in the West) or the conference finals (in the East)? Ewing/Stark Knicks and Malone/Stock Jazz surrounded by trash? Keep in mind he is going into these matchups with the better team every time. If not better, at least close enough that his individual brilliance over the other player, whether it be Barkley, Drexler, Payton or old Magic, made the difference, as these were never GOAT level players.

Jordan fans have said that Ewing/Starks Knicks were the strongest competition he faced...um, you do realize Pippen WITHOUT Jordan would have beaten arguably the best of those Knicks teams if not for a bogus call? Hakeem with trash beat them too. Some competition that is . Bulls with a lineup of Wilt, Russell or Kareem/Grant/Pippen definitely wouldn't win 6 rings minimum in this era, right? How would you even score on that team?

Wilt had to go against Russell's Celtics, Kareem/Oscar Bucks. Bird against the Erving/Malone Sixers, Magic/Kareem/Worthy Lakers. Kareem against Wilt/West's Lakers (arguably GOAT team), Thurmond/Barry Warriors, Cowens/Havlichek Celtics (which was incredibly deep, much more so than Kareem's team). Magic had to go against Bird's Celtics, Moses/Erving Sixers. Duncan had to go against Shaq/Kobe Lakers nearly every year (Shaq another GOAT candidate). And yet Jordan fans have the shame to dismiss pre-merger NBA and post-Jordan NBA as weak

I think if we moved this from individuals to teams, Jordan would still be last. His individual AND team competition doesn't compare to any of the other GOAT candidates...yet this dude is the consensus greatest? How the hell did this happen



The funny thing is in practically every sport competition is considered. Do you think Brady winning 3 SB's in the era of parity is the same as Montana winning 4 with in the 80's? When Brady is compared people naturally will point out that he won in an ultra-competitive era. I already mentioned what is done in NASCAR/F1. In baseball the lack of black players is used against Ruth, and to a lesser extent the same thing happens to Wilt and Russell (although for some odd reason the lack of foreign players in the past is never considered). And so on. Only in basketball can you become the majority "greatest of all-time" with no scrutiny applied to your record. Just look at threads about any other legend, whether it is Kareem or Patrick Ewing or Wilt or Chris Webber. Their records are scrutinized. Yet perversely the majority GOAT is the lone exception?

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So then why are Duncan and Shaq considered each other's competition despite Timmy being a power forward and Shaq being a center?

The same reason Magic and Bird were considered each other's primary competition: they were the best players during their primes.
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Old 01-27-2010, 06:18 PM   #21
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

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I think if we moved this from individuals to teams, Jordan would still be last. His individual AND team competition doesn't compare to any of the other GOAT candidates...yet this dude is the consensus greatest? How the hell did this happen

Of course, why else would you make this thread? Let me just tell you everything you want to hear.

Jordan was sh*t, his competition was sh*t, he had a loaded team in an era that was sh*t, he was a selfish ball hog who only knew how to score when he didn't airball his shots and had Scottie Pippen(The GOAT Chicago Bull) carry him for his whole career. ALL HAIL Fatal9!!!!

I bet you just came in your pants, didn't you?

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The same reason Magic and Bird were considered each other's primary competition: they were the best players during their primes.

Yet Fatal doesn't have Magic and Larry listed as each other's competition.
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Old 01-27-2010, 06:43 PM   #22
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

Why are we limiting this to specific positions? Well, stupid question, I know why, so RR can come in and diminish MJ some more.

Why do the quality of the centers Jordan faced during his years not count for anything? He was a slasher first, jump-shooter second.

Hell, I have a theory. Overall perimeter defense in the 80's-90's was extremely better then it is in the 00's because the quality of centers was much higher. A quality center makes it much easier for a perimeter player to play defense.

Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Smits, Mutumbo, Mourning, Ewing. These are all centers off the top of my head I would take over any player in that position during the 00's save of course for Shaq who played during both. This was off the top of my head I am sure I forgot a couple as well. All these centers helped their perimeter defenders perform above and beyond.

The 90's was chock full of quality centers, so in conclusion, I would say Jordan's competition was just fine.
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Old 01-27-2010, 06:44 PM   #23
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

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Originally Posted by Fatal9
in the playoffs? I'd say his regular season competition was much better than Jordan though.
You can add Paul Pierce and Ray Allen...they smacked him around a bit, but still.
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Old 01-27-2010, 06:47 PM   #24
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

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Originally Posted by Alhazred
...



You can still be the GOAT even if you won against weak competition.

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Old 01-27-2010, 07:29 PM   #25
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

You still didn't answer my question. Why are Shaq and Duncan listed as each other's competition if they don't play the same position? You can rank Jordan however you want, but don't act as if this thread is objective.
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Old 01-27-2010, 07:34 PM   #26
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

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Originally Posted by Alhazred
You still didn't answer my question. Why are Shaq and Duncan listed as each other's competition if they don't play the same position? You can rank Jordan however you want, but don't act as if this thread is objective.
They guarded each other on multiple occasions and everyone knows that TD has been the true center for SA since Robinson's retirement, no matter what they list him as.
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Old 01-27-2010, 07:41 PM   #27
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

this thread is dumb, how can you rank things like this considering basketball is a team sport? nba players dont even play one on one. so why use who started opposite then as a measuring stick?
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Old 01-27-2010, 07:44 PM   #28
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

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Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
They guarded each other on multiple occasions and everyone knows that TD has been the true center for SA since Robinson's retirement, no matter what they list him as.

I understand that, but GP, Dennis Johnson, Penny Hardaway and Magic Johnson have all been assigned to play against Jordan, too. Judging from the rules specified by the OP and Roundball, only players who shared the exact same position can be compared.

From Roundball:

Quote:
If we did that for everyone the OP would be triple the length. Should we add all the power forwards Hakeem faced when he played PF too? Or Byron Russell for Jordan since Russell guarded Jordan? Scottie Pippen for Magic Johnson? Rodman for Shaq?

So apparently, Tim/Shaq shouldn't be a valid comparison to them since they didn't play the same position. Hey, don't look at me, I didn't make the rules for this thread.
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Old 01-27-2010, 07:46 PM   #29
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

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Originally Posted by Fatal9
Basically I wanted to look at the competition the top 10 or so players faced in the playoffs at their own position. I tried to generally go with players that they faced during the prime years. I picked about 5 or 6 players, so let me know if I missed something or made a mistake.

Wilt - Russell, Kareem, Reed, Thurmond, Lucas, Petit
Kareem - Reed, Wilt, Peak Walton, Thurmond, Unseld, Cowens (tried to limit Cs he faced in his prime as he would see Moses, Hakeem, Parish later on)
Bird - Erving, King, Worthy, Wilkens, Dantley
Magic - DJ, Isiah, Harper, Lever, Stockton (this is tough because Magic defies position so just went with PGs)
Shaq - Duncan, Hakeem, Robinson, Mutombo, Smits
Hakeem - Robinson, Shaq, Ewing, Kareem, Divac
Duncan - Shaq, Dirk, Amare, Webber, Garnett
Russell - Wilt, Petit, Lucas, Schayes, Reed
Jordan - Dumars, Drexler, Miller, Ehlo, Starks, Majerle
Kobe - Ginobili, Allen, Iverson, Smith, Christie

So who had it the hardest? And for who was it easier to outplay his opponents? If I had to rank hardest to easiest it would be something like:

Wilt > Kareem > Bird > Russell > Hakeem > Duncan > Shaq > Magic > Jordan > Kobe

Agreed?
lol you are so funny.christie?? where is tmac or vc?
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Old 01-27-2010, 07:53 PM   #30
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

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Originally Posted by Fatal9
Who was Jordan's chief competition teamwise while he was winning his rings in the 90s? What teams were perennially good enough to consistently make the finals (in the West) or the conference finals (in the East)? Ewing/Stark Knicks and Malone/Stock Jazz surrounded by trash? Keep in mind he is going into these matchups with the better team every time. If not better, at least close enough that his individual brilliance over the other player, whether it be Barkley, Drexler, Payton or old Magic, made the difference, as these were never GOAT level players.

Jordan fans have said that Ewing/Starks Knicks were the strongest competition he faced...um, you do realize Pippen WITHOUT Jordan would have beaten arguably the best of those Knicks teams if not for a bogus call? Hakeem with trash beat them too. Some competition that is . Bulls with a lineup of Wilt, Russell or Kareem/Grant/Pippen definitely wouldn't win 6 rings minimum in this era, right? How would you even score on that team?

Wilt had to go against Russell's Celtics, Kareem/Oscar Bucks. Bird against the Erving/Malone Sixers, Magic/Kareem/Worthy Lakers. Kareem against Wilt/West's Lakers (arguably GOAT team), Thurmond/Barry Warriors, Cowens/Havlichek Celtics (which was incredibly deep, much more so than Kareem's team). Magic had to go against Bird's Celtics, Moses/Erving Sixers. Duncan had to go against Shaq/Kobe Lakers nearly every year (Shaq another GOAT candidate). And yet Jordan fans have the shame to dismiss pre-merger NBA and post-Jordan NBA as weak

I think if we moved this from individuals to teams, Jordan would still be last. His individual AND team competition doesn't compare to any of the other GOAT candidates...yet this dude is the consensus greatest? How the hell did this happen
its funny you bring competition up cuz according to you, the celtics and lakers have never even beaten each other at full strength. in 87 the celtics were hurt. in 84 the lakers were hurt. so their level of competition isnt that good either. and ill take you up on that new poll you want to make. and while we are at it, lets compare whos done the most with the least. cuz magic, bird, and whoever else you want to bring into the discussion, have never had to try to win with a team that wasnt stacked. theve never been on a bad team like jordan etc so lets do it.
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