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Old 01-27-2010, 07:13 PM   #31
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhazred
I understand that, but GP, Dennis Johnson, Penny Hardaway and Magic Johnson have all been assigned to play against Jordan, too. Judging from the rules specified by the OP and Roundball, only players who shared the exact same position can be compared.

From Roundball:

So apparently, Tim/Shaq shouldn't be a valid comparison to them since they didn't play the same position. Hey, don't look at me, I didn't make the rules for this thread.

Who cares? His general point stands even if you take Duncan out for Shaq. If you want to make additions like Payton for Jordan, fine, but do the same for everyone else. The result will still look like the OP.

Quote:
this thread is dumb, how can you rank things like this considering basketball is a team sport? nba players dont even play one on one. so why use who started opposite then as a measuring stick?

I believe the OP has roots in the Kareem thread where some Jordan fans attacked Kareem for being outplayed by Walton (this myth has been debunked), peak Moses in 83' when he was 35, and Hakeem when KAJ was 38. They then compared it to Jordan, who never was outplayed by his SG counterpart (see, they limited it to positions too!) in the playoffs, but as the OP shows he only had legit competition from a SG in one series in his career and that was against Drexler, and even Drexler is arguably not even top 40 all-time.

Quote:
lol you are so funny.christie?? where is tmac or vc?

The OP is about the playoffs. When people talk of being "outplayed" in a historical discussion they mean in the playoffs. 20 years from now no one will care that D. Williams usually outplays Chris Paul head-to-head--unless Williams do so in a playoff series. Ask David Robinson. He usually got the better of Hakeem in the regular season but when it counted Hakeem demolished him. As a result Hakeem's reputation was elevated. It is a big part of his case to be top 10 all-time. The other consequence was it permanently damaged Robinson's reputation. Up to that point he was considered on par with Hakeem. In popular opinion they were similar; in MVP voting and all-NBA voting Robinson actually usually finished ahead of Hakeem so you can argue the "experts" favored Robinson. Of course we know how things stand now. Hakeem is 8th or 9th all-time on practically every list and Robinson is usually top 25 but he often does not reach the top 20.
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Old 01-27-2010, 07:20 PM   #32
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
Really? Let's give prime Richmond the GOAT perimeter defender to help him contain Jordan and then see what happens. Let's also throw in a 20 ppg scorer who the opposing defense has to pay some attention to. Richmond was playing on trash teams in his prime. Jordan was the better player but if prime Richmond faced MJ in the playoffs I could see Richmond conceivably outplaying Jordan in a series during the 1995-98 era. He probably would not but it would be possible--especially if you switched their teams.

you and Fatal hate Jordan so much..... I just find some of the stuff you say about him hilarious.
Competition position wise would be
1-Wilt/Russell
2-Magic
3-Hakeem
4-I don't want to do the rest

Last edited by magnax1 : 01-27-2010 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 01-27-2010, 07:28 PM   #33
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

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Who cares? His general point stands even if you take Duncan out for Shaq. If you want to make additions like Payton for Jordan, fine, but do the same for everyone else. The result will still look like the OP.

Just curious, but weren't Bob Pettit and Dolph Shayes forwards? Why are they considered competition for two centers like Russell and Wilt?

Anyways, like I said, rank Jordan however you want, but it's blatantly clear that the only purpose of this thread was to discredit Jordan and not based on objectiveness.

Last edited by Alhazred : 01-27-2010 at 07:30 PM.
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Old 01-27-2010, 07:52 PM   #34
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
Funny how it is kosher to promote myths like Walton outplayed Kareem (that myth was laid to rest here http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...69#post3902169 ), calling out 35 and 38 year old KAJ for getting outplayed by peak Moses and 24 year old Hakeem yet it is taboo to look at the total picture here, both with Kareem and that with respect to other legends? What is the problem with that?





If we did that for everyone the OP would be triple the length. Should we add all the power forwards Hakeem faced when he played PF too? Or Byron Russell for Jordan since Russell guarded Jordan? Scottie Pippen for Magic Johnson? Rodman for Shaq?



The same can be done with everyone else.



Ok. Add the best SG's from 1985-1990 too. Adding 2002 and 2003 is a joke, though. Those years are never included when assessing Jordan's legacy. So he faced AI for two years in the regular season. And? That has no relevance to the competition he faced in his prime. So what if AI or Kobe lit him up? Besides, if we add them to Jordan's list we have to add Moses, Ewing, Robinson, and Hakeem among others to Kareem's list. The same applies to everyone else. What exactly is the point here? The OP is about relative competition. So what if you add a few players for Jordan? The same thing would have to be done for others and that does not work to Jordan's advantage. Adding T Mac is not the same as adding Hakeem.

As I said earlier, "outplaying" only matters in the playoffs as far as legacies go. You should know this. You have posted several times about D. Robinson vs. Hakeem. We know who did better in the regular season and who did better when it counted. Which one do people care about? Which one destroyed a reputation?



Really? Let's give prime Richmond the GOAT perimeter defender to help him contain Jordan and then see what happens. Let's also throw in a 20 ppg scorer who the opposing defense has to pay some attention to. Richmond was playing on trash teams in his prime. Jordan was the better player but if prime Richmond faced MJ in the playoffs I could see Richmond conceivably outplaying Jordan in a series during the 1995-98 era. He probably would not but it would be possible--especially if you switched their teams.



for that and two other reasons. You have OSB whining about an alleged agenda. Finally, the agenda--whatever it is--involves comparing the competition greats had. What is so nefarious about this? If you went to a football forum and comparing Joe Montana's competition to Johhny Unitas and Peyton Manning's would anyone cry? I know for a fact you could compare the racers faced on a F1 or NASCAR board and no one would complain. In fact, weak comp is the chief argument in NASCAR against Richard Petty's GOAT case as it is against Michael Schumacher in F1. There GOAT discussions are common, as they are throughout the world of sports, and you probably couldn't go five posts without someone mentioning these two won in weak eras. Jacques Villeneuve was MS's second biggest competition in his prime.
I can't stop dying at this troll. It's too funny now.
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Old 01-27-2010, 08:04 PM   #35
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhazred
Just curious, but weren't Bob Pettit and Dolph Shayes forwards? Why are they considered competition for two centers like Russell and Wilt?

Anyways, like I said, rank Jordan however you want, but it's blatantly clear that the only purpose of this thread was to discredit Jordan and not based on objectiveness.
no, RR buttbuddy only made this thread fairly with no spin like fox news. Everything they say is unbias. RR is becoming a troll, he was a fine poster before, but you can tell how much of a idiot he really is.
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Old 01-27-2010, 08:13 PM   #36
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhazred
Just curious, but weren't Bob Pettit and Dolph Shayes forwards? Why are they considered competition for two centers like Russell and Wilt?
Uh, because Petit played center vs. Russell in those finals series? He was the one who jumped, and both guarded each other (it's well documented). In fact when Russell got injured for one game, Petitt scored like 50 points. He is listed as F/C. Same with Schayes. And many posters consider Duncan a center, me being one of them. When Robinson was out, he played center for the team (then consider how much both guarded each other).

at Jordan fans trying to distract from the fact that Jordan's individual and team competition is pathetic compared to the rest of the GOAT candidates. I have no interest in correcting you over and over again, you've already exposed your ignorance and fanboy-ness in other threads. No one "hates" Jordan. I hate how overrated he is to the point as if he is "consensus GOAT". Only "consensus" thing he is is top 5. No one is consensus GOAT, especially if you have knowledge of each player's career (which Jordan fans clearly don't do).
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Old 01-27-2010, 08:15 PM   #37
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal9
Uh, because Petit played center vs. Russell in those finals series? He was the one who jumped, and both guarded each other (it's well documented). In fact when Russell got injured for one game, Petitt scored like 50 points. He is listed as F/C. Same with Schayes. And many posters consider Duncan a center, me being one of them. When Robinson was out, he played center for the team (then consider how much both guarded each other).

at Jordan fans trying to distract from the fact that Jordan's individual and team competition is pathetic compared to the rest of the GOAT candidates. I have no interest in, you've already exposed your ignorance and fanboy-ness in other threads. No one "hates" Jordan. I hate how overrated he is to the point as if he is "consensus GOAT". Only "consensus" thing he is is top 5. No one is consensus GOAT, especially if you have knowledge of each player's career (which Jordan fans clearly don't do).
So this thread is about MJ The goat?
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Old 01-27-2010, 08:15 PM   #38
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal9
Who was Jordan's chief competition teamwise while he was winning his rings in the 90s? What teams were perennially good enough to consistently make the finals (in the West) or the conference finals (in the East)? Ewing/Stark Knicks and Malone/Stock Jazz surrounded by trash? Keep in mind he is going into these matchups with the better team every time. If not better, at least close enough that his individual brilliance over the other player, whether it be Barkley, Drexler, Payton or old Magic, made the difference, as these were never GOAT level players.

Jordan fans have said that Ewing/Starks Knicks were the strongest competition he faced...um, you do realize Pippen WITHOUT Jordan would have beaten arguably the best of those Knicks teams if not for a bogus call? Hakeem with trash beat them too. Some competition that is . Bulls with a lineup of Wilt, Russell or Kareem/Grant/Pippen definitely wouldn't win 6 rings minimum in this era, right? How would you even score on that team?

Wilt had to go against Russell's Celtics, Kareem/Oscar Bucks. Bird against the Erving/Malone Sixers, Magic/Kareem/Worthy Lakers. Kareem against Wilt/West's Lakers (arguably GOAT team), Thurmond/Barry Warriors, Cowens/Havlichek Celtics (which was incredibly deep, much more so than Kareem's team). Magic had to go against Bird's Celtics, Moses/Erving Sixers. Duncan had to go against Shaq/Kobe Lakers nearly every year (Shaq another GOAT candidate). And yet Jordan fans have the shame to dismiss pre-merger NBA and post-Jordan NBA as weak

I think if we moved this from individuals to teams, Jordan would still be last. His individual AND team competition doesn't compare to any of the other GOAT candidates...yet this dude is the consensus greatest? How the hell did this happen
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Old 01-27-2010, 08:20 PM   #39
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal9
Uh, because Petit played center vs. Russell in those finals series? He was the one who jumped, and both guarded each other (it's well documented). In fact when Russell got injured for one game, Petitt scored like 50 points. He is listed as F/C. Same with Schayes. And many posters consider Duncan a center, me being one of them. When Robinson was out, he played center for the team (then consider how much both guarded each other).

Yet you completely ignore the fact that MJ has been matched up against Magic, Isiah, GP and DJ? In the Bird vs. Michael thread, you even said that he was matched up with Larry sometimes, correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 01-27-2010, 08:21 PM   #40
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

After all this time I think I've finally figured out Fatal9. For whatever reason Fatal hates MJ so much that he started nut hugging Kobe because he felt Kobe may have been the person to overtake MJ all time and therefore he could just push Kobe down our throats. We've seen him do the same thing with KAJ and Bird out of nowhere when he never gave a **** about them even a year ago.

I've noticed Fatal knocking Kobe the last few months either because he wants to get rid of his Kobe nut hugger status or because he finally realizes Kobe has no chance to overtake MJ. You can already see him slightly jumping on the LBJ bandwagon because LBJ is the only current player who has a chance of overtaking MJ. If LBJ gets a ring this year expect Fatal to be all over his nuts.
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Old 01-27-2010, 08:22 PM   #41
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone112
After all this time I think I've finally figured out Fatal9. For whatever reason Fatal hates MJ so much that he started nut hugging Kobe because he felt Kobe may have been the person to overtake MJ all time and therefore he could just push Kobe down our throats. We've seen him do the same thing with KAJ and Bird out of nowhere when he never gave a **** about them even a year ago.

I've noticed Fatal knocking Kobe the last few months either because he wants to get rid of his Kobe nut hugger status or because he finally realizes Kobe has no chance to overtake MJ. You can already see him slightly jumping on the LBJ bandwagon because LBJ is the only current player who has a chance of overtaking MJ. If LBJ gets a ring this year expect Fatal to be all over his nuts.

/Thread
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Old 01-27-2010, 08:25 PM   #42
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

The fundamental flaw with this entire argument is that limiting a players competition to what position he plays or who he guards shows a complete lack of understanding as to how the game works. When Magic and the Lakers battled Bird and the Celtics whichever player had the better series, his team won. It was Bird vs. Magic and their ability to impose their will and their teams style on the opponent.

It should look (something) like this:

Superstars* who's primes coincided and had at least one playoff battle...

Russell: Wilt, Oscar, West, Baylor, Pettit, Reed
Wilt: Russell, Oscar, West, Baylor, Pettit, Kareem, Reed, Frazier, Cousy, Rick Barry, John Havlicek
Kareem: Wilt, Reed, Frazier, Rick Barry, John Havlicek, Walton, Unseld, Bird, Doctor J, Moses
Magic: Moses, Bird, Doctor J, Isiah, Jordan, Hakeem
Bird: Moses, Doctor J, Magic, Kareem, Isiah, Jordan, Hakeem
Jordan: Bird, Magic, Shaq, Ewing, Stockton and Malone, Barkley, Isiah
Hakeem: Bird, Magic, Jordan, David Robinson, Pippen, Ewing, Shaq, Stockton and Malone
Shaq: Jordan, Hakeem, David Robinson, Duncan, Barkley, Stockton and Malone, Pippen, Kobe, Ewing, Dirk, Garnett
Duncan: Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, Dirk, Garnett
Kobe: Duncan, Wade, LeBron, Dirk, Garnett

I'm sure I made mistakes here...

*Defined as players who are arguably top 25 all-time or could be when their career completes
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Old 01-27-2010, 08:28 PM   #43
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone112
We've seen him do the same thing with KAJ and Bird out of nowhere when he never gave a **** about them even a year ago
Uh, I started my youtube channel for Bird last may or june and have been collecting Bird DVDs for years. LOL @ me ever thinking Kobe would ever overtake MJ when I have explicitly said there is nothing he could ever do to pass him. Only thing I have even said along these lines are that Kobe could be perceived by the general public as being greater if he wins more rings. I am only criticizing Kobe because he has played like trash this month (mainly because he is being selfish) and LBJ has become so good it's hard not to amazed by what he's doing. Again, keep distracting from the main point of the thread though, when all else fails, bring Kobe out of the blue
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Old 01-27-2010, 08:35 PM   #44
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.O.A.T
It should look (something) like this:

Superstars* who's primes coincided and had at least one playoff battle...

Russell: Wilt, Oscar, West, Baylor, Pettit, Reed
Wilt: Russell, Oscar, West, Baylor, Pettit, Kareem, Reed, Frazier, Cousy, Rick Barry, John Havlicek
Kareem: Wilt, Reed, Frazier, Rick Barry, John Havlicek, Walton, Unseld, Bird, Doctor J, Moses
Magic: Moses, Bird, Doctor J, Isiah, Jordan, Hakeem
Bird: Moses, Doctor J, Magic, Kareem, Isiah, Jordan, Hakeem
Jordan: Bird, Magic, Shaq, Ewing, Stockton and Malone, Barkley, Isiah
Hakeem: Bird, Magic, Jordan, David Robinson, Pippen, Ewing, Shaq, Stockton and Malone
Shaq: Jordan, Hakeem, David Robinson, Duncan, Barkley, Stockton and Malone, Pippen, Kobe, Ewing, Dirk, Garnett
Duncan: Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, Dirk, Garnett
Kobe: Duncan, Wade, LeBron, Dirk, Garnett

*Defined as players who are arguably top 25 all-time or could be when their career completes

Much better list.

I'd list Jordan's at around 3-5. Not the best, but certainly not the worst either.
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Old 01-27-2010, 08:37 PM   #45
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Default Re: Rank the peer competition of the all-time greats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal9
at Jordan fans trying to distract from the fact that Jordan's individual and team competition is pathetic compared to the rest of the GOAT candidates.

Uhh, the 70's are generally considered to be the nadir of NBA basketball, yet you don't dock Kareem points for dominating that decade individually. And the 80's were great both individually and team-wise, but Kareem/Magic each had another top 5 all time player to work with, as well as other all-star level players (Worthy, Scott, McAdoo etc.). Bird "only" had two 20/10 big men, a 15 pt/7 ast/defensive first team PG, and quality role players like Ainge/Walton etc.

Ditto for the early-mid 00's (second worst period of NBA ball) which Shaq/Kobe dominated. Terrible era and they each had another top 7 (Shaq)/top 10 (Kobe) all time player on their team to help them.

Get out of here with that noise.

Last edited by OldSchoolBBall : 01-27-2010 at 08:49 PM.
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