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Old 02-08-2010, 01:41 AM   #1
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Default How are these former Nets doing?

so i'm one of those guys who tends to follow the former nets stars. a couple days ago i was able to watch RJ against the blazers and kmart against the lakers thanks to national TV, and wrote down some thoughts. hopefully i can round it out with some VC and kidd sightings, soon...


RJ-

looks like he's missing some of the explosiveness he used to have. granted he did hustle on his defensive assignments, but he does seem to get beaten more easily now when his man puts on a burst of speed. also, i noticed him getting one hand on a lot of rebounds but unable to finish most of them off. with a little quicker, higher vertical leap i think he would have had many of those instead of just accidentally directing them to another area of the floor.

beyond that, i question how much the spurs are getting out of him on the offensive end. most of the time he seems to set up on the extreme wings and play the bowen role, simply waiting for a pass and open shot. and he's good at that (39% on corner threes for the season), but averages less than one shot there per game. from the rest of 3-pt land he's only 33%. he also looked active, running to the top of the arc to setting a lot of picks for parker, and i suppose that has value.

so those are useful things, but are they worth $14 million a year? i dunno. i mean, one of his biggest assets used to be slashing to the hoop and drawing fouls, yet i didn't see that in evidence the other night at all. when RJ's primary offensive threat is the jump shot, you know something's not right.

also, seems to me like the spurs could spend more time moving the ball around to find easy shots, ala the kings from the early 2000's to name one example. right now the ball spends a lot of time in the hands of parker at the arc and duncan in the box, and therefore most of the assists come from drive-and-kicks and passes out of mid-post double-teams to the waiting shooters. but most players need to touch the ball regularly to improve their shooting stroke, and RJ is probably one of them. not to mention, he's also quite good at moving the ball around, so to me it further increases the need for the spurs to move the ball more crisply and with more diversity. i'm guessing this is part of what's held RJ back this season.

so granted he's lost some explosiveness, but unless pop changes the way RJ is used, i don't think the spurs are ever going to get full value from him... maybe not even good value for him. notwithstanding the fact that his ankles may be shot anyway, as per draft express. but even less athletic, older players tend to look more comfortable than RJ looks in that system.


kmart-

Quote:
Originally Posted by cpawfan
[Kmart's] jumper is better than it has ever been as there is actually some arc on it now (see the Spurs game from this past weekend). His footwork in the post makes him look at times like an actual NBA big man (he had a couple of moves last night against the Suns that nearly rendered Mark Jackson speechless). He is the one that talks (more like barks out instructions) on Denver's defense. Karl has talked repeatedly to the media about his role as QB of the defense and how when the team plays their spurts of good defense it is because of what Kenyon does. In short, he is finally healthy, has matured and is a far more complete player than when he was an All Star with the Nets.
his jumper is definitely much better... it even seems to extend to the 3-pt line now (holy crap). and i agree, his arc is better. maybe not dramatically, but something is there.

still made some mistakes from what i saw... for example, more than once settling into a zone defense position when the defender right next to him seemed to be in man, leading to easy layup passes when the lakers overloaded his area. but who knows... it's always possible someone else missed their assignment and he was the one hung out to dry.

and on offense, he seems to think that he's a guard at times who can toss up running floaters for regular points. but even floaters need some arc... or at least, he can't drive hard and strong-arm a line-drive shot and expect it to go in.

overall, however, it really looks like kmart belongs. he seems to know exactly where he needs to go on the court at any given moment, the mark of a smart, veteran player. very rarely does he seem to hurt the nuggets, although billups may heavily influence that on offense. by contrast, RJ is in a living heck right now... wherever he goes and whatever he does, very quickly it seems like the wrong decision, and he's probably the first to admit it.
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Old 02-08-2010, 10:54 PM   #2
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Default Re: How are these former Nets doing?

How about Vince Carter exploding for 48 points?!
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Old 02-08-2010, 11:05 PM   #3
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Default Re: How are these former Nets doing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nets fan 93
How about Vince Carter exploding for 48 points?!
HELLS YEAH
That was really fun to watch. Reminded me of back in 06 when he used to have these games every other night. He just couldnt be stopped. Its also fun to watch the main forum all of a sudden begin to like Vince again. Only at ISH.

Hows Jason been doing? I havent watched a Dallas game all season.
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Old 02-09-2010, 01:38 PM   #4
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Default Re: How are these former Nets doing?

awesome to see carter have such a nice game. i've been worried about him.

looking at NBA hotspots, out of his 27 shots against the hornets, he took half of them at the rim. sweet! that's the carter we were hoping for. he was also on fire from three, of course-- 6/10.

he's obviously not going to have this type of game all the time, but considering the nagging injuries he's had so far and the difficulty finding an efficient game in their system, it's great to see.


kidd-

saw him a couple times earlier in the season and here's my take so far:

being a jump shooter was already becoming kidd's role on the nets due to his loss of foot speed, but that doesn't mean he's been bad there. he's transformed himself into quite a good 3-pt shooter since coming to the mavs- 41% for this season and about 41% overall.

as for the lack of triple-doubles, i don't see how anyone can legitimately knock him for that.

for one thing, the nets were a terrible rebounding team, allowing him to average as many as eight boards a game. since going back to the mavs, he's averaged almost six... which is still outstanding for a guard and the best for all NBA PG's. he also takes less shots and therefore scores less points , but does so more efficiently. which is not surprising, considering what great scorers the mavs have at the 2-3-4 positions.

so these are two small differences, but enough to pretty much put his triple-double days behind him. but he was always a 'skinny triple double' guy anyway, typically just barely qualifying when he made them. so in the end, i see little real difference in his effectiveness.

as for his passing:
http://www.thetwomangame.com/2010/01...lify-simplify/


Quote:
Originally Posted by NetIncome
His defense is dreadful. After making $21,372,000 last year, he signed a new three year, $25.1 million deal with Dallas. He is owed $8,100,000 this year and $8,500,000 in both 2010-11 and 2011-12, when he will be 39. All three years are guaranteed.
and isn't it suggestive that the mavs are thrilled with his current contract? even at his advanced age, even with his decreased foot speed?

and yes, i agree his defense is dreadful trying to guard pocket rockets straight up. which is why the mavs don't use him that way from what i've seen. because when the opposing PG's speed is a problem, the mavs have terry, barea or several other options to play defense there. which is not an imposition, because kidd still does a surprisingly good job on wing players up to about 6'8"... even power wings, like carmelo anthony. ...while remaining the captain of the defense and the most efficient positional player on the team.

watch kidd play these days and you'll see one of the most efficient defensive players in the league, regardless of the loss of foot speed. at least, that's what i see, and it's darn impressive considering his shortcomings. this probably has something to do with him collecting the sixth-most steals in the NBA (1.84) and tenth-most blocks for all guards (.56).

Last edited by gigantes : 02-11-2010 at 12:02 AM.
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Old 02-10-2010, 06:46 PM   #5
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Default Re: How are these former Nets doing?

Carter clearly wasn't 100% for January. He's been banged up for a lot of the season. his skillset hasn't declined and he still shows bursts of athleticism. Factor that in with him adjusting to a new team, seeing reduced minutes(due to him playing on a deeper team and leaving games with injuries) and it's easy to see how his season has turned out like this.

The last 4 games have been very encouraging for Carter fans and Magic fans. He's shown a lot signs lately, particularly the near triple double in a win vs Milwaukee, 21 points and 10 FTA in the loss vs Washington, 20 points on 7/13 shooting in a win at Boston and of course an incredibly efficient and clutch 48 points vs the Hornets with 34 in the second half.

It's obvious that he's much better than he looked in january. Prior to that he had averaged about 19 ppg as the leading scorer on the second best team in the East.

As far as Kidd, he still has an incredible sixth sense for finding players exactly where they want the ball, getting loose balls for rebounds and he's the best passer in the league, no question IMO. His man defense on bigger guards, his anticipation, his clutch play and leadership and his 3 point shooting has made him an extremely valuable player. Forget the 9 ppg(6 of which he gets on 3's), he's a great player.

Unfortunately, RJ just looks lost in San Antonio. He hasn't regressed that much athletically(remember his dunk on Oden?) since his 23 ppg season so I fear he's lacking confidence.

K-Mart has been a fantastic role player for Denver. He's still a very good finisher and quite mobile for a big man, he's having one of his best rebounding seasons, he's a versatile defender capable of guarding perimeter players and big men and of course his improved jumpshot.
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Old 02-10-2010, 08:59 PM   #6
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Default Re: How are these former Nets doing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Carter clearly wasn't 100% for January. He's been banged up for a lot of the season. his skillset hasn't declined and he still shows bursts of athleticism. Factor that in with him adjusting to a new team, seeing reduced minutes(due to him playing on a deeper team and leaving games with injuries) and it's easy to see how his season has turned out like this.

The last 4 games have been very encouraging for Carter fans and Magic fans. He's shown a lot signs lately, particularly the near triple double in a win vs Milwaukee, 21 points and 10 FTA in the loss vs Washington, 20 points on 7/13 shooting in a win at Boston and of course an incredibly efficient and clutch 48 points vs the Hornets with 34 in the second half.

It's obvious that he's much better than he looked in january. Prior to that he had averaged about 19 ppg as the leading scorer on the second best team in the East.

As far as Kidd, he still has an incredible sixth sense for finding players exactly where they want the ball, getting loose balls for rebounds and he's the best passer in the league, no question IMO. His man defense on bigger guards, his anticipation, his clutch play and leadership and his 3 point shooting has made him an extremely valuable player. Forget the 9 ppg(6 of which he gets on 3's), he's a great player.

Unfortunately, RJ just looks lost in San Antonio. He hasn't regressed that much athletically(remember his dunk on Oden?) since his 23 ppg season so I fear he's lacking confidence.

K-Mart has been a fantastic role player for Denver. He's still a very good finisher and quite mobile for a big man, he's having one of his best rebounding seasons, he's a versatile defender capable of guarding perimeter players and big men and of course his improved jumpshot.

Great post.
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Old 02-11-2010, 12:19 AM   #7
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Default Re: How are these former Nets doing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Carter clearly wasn't 100% for January. He's been banged up for a lot of the season. his skillset hasn't declined and he still shows bursts of athleticism. Factor that in with him adjusting to a new team, seeing reduced minutes(due to him playing on a deeper team and leaving games with injuries) and it's easy to see how his season has turned out like this.
thanks for the opinions. where's the thumbs-up smiley?

anyway...

"easy" is too strong a word IMO, but i agree, those factors certainly help explain the situation.

but there are also some important factors which i think led many of us to believe that carter would have fit in to the magic a lot quicker than he's done--

he's a veteran, after all, has good BBIQ, is a good passer and can handle the ball like a PG, and was extremely motivated starting with the day of the trade. he may not have been able to fill the vacated turkoglu role, but i don't think many experts would have expected him to continue floundering past even the quarter mark of the season, nagging injuries or no nagging injuries.

and the tendency to over-handle the ball is a surprise, at least to me. i know he can be more efficient with it and would think that he'd want to please his teammates as much as possible, this season.

still, i'm hopeful that it all works out. not just for carter, but also because someone's got to stop the cavs...

Last edited by gigantes : 02-11-2010 at 03:04 AM.
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Old 02-11-2010, 06:50 PM   #8
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Default Re: How are these former Nets doing?

Thanks and Vince had another strong game last night as well. 15/5/3 on 6/10 shooting(2/3 3 point shooting) in just 27 minutes(the game was over long before the 4th quarter.
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Old 02-12-2010, 12:49 PM   #9
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Default Re: How are these former Nets doing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Thanks and Vince had another strong game last night as well. 15/5/3 on 6/10 shooting(2/3 3 point shooting) in just 27 minutes(the game was over long before the 4th quarter.
damn, i jinxed him. i checked the boxscore last night hoping to see his streak continue, but he had an off game.

charley rosen said that anthony parker shut him down, although he certainly wasn't the only magician shut down.

the cavs are just amazing. without lebron, i'm wondering if they'd be any better than a bottom five team. yet with him...
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Old 02-12-2010, 04:19 PM   #10
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Default Re: How are these former Nets doing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gigantes
damn, i jinxed him. i checked the boxscore last night hoping to see his streak continue, but he had an off game.

charley rosen said that anthony parker shut him down, although he certainly wasn't the only magician shut down.

the cavs are just amazing. without lebron, i'm wondering if they'd be any better than a bottom five team. yet with him...

Without Lebron they'd probably be like the current Rockets. A bunch of defensive-minded role players who play hard and play in a good defensive system. Probably hovering around the .500 mark.
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