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Old 02-24-2010, 04:55 PM   #16
gotbacon23
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Default Re: Lebron through 6 seasons compared to other top 10 of all-time players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
Pippen (90', MJ's 6th season). Jordan also had the #12 scorer in the league, who was also a cocaine user,on his team as a rookie, but Woolridge was not an all-star.

fixed.

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/02/24/sp...l?pagewanted=1

i know the article was in '88, but don't think he started it then- no way he started using cocaine right AFTER bias died.
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Old 02-24-2010, 04:58 PM   #17
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Default Re: Lebron through 6 seasons compared to other top 10 of all-time players

Wait... people are bagging on Lebron for what he hasn't done??

Where are these insane people?

You have to bear in mind also: LBJ came in to the L 3-4 years younger than all those guys.

If look at it from an Age perspective its not even close.
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Old 02-24-2010, 04:58 PM   #18
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Default Re: Lebron through 6 seasons compared to other top 10 of all-time players

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Originally Posted by gotbacon23
fixed.

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/02/24/sp...l?pagewanted=1

i know the article was in '88, but don't think he started it then- no way he started using cocaine right AFTER bias died.

Why does that matter? 23 ppg is 23 ppg on the court regardless of what happens off the court. Who did Lebron have that could score that well until Jamison?

Quote:
Edit: Strike that, Hakeem didn't either.

Yes, but Sampson played HOF caliber ball until he got injured, hence Hakeem going from making the NBA finals to losing in the first round 3-4 straight years after Sampson's injury. Lebron has never had a teammate of the caliber of young Sampson.

Last edited by Roundball_Rock : 02-24-2010 at 05:05 PM.
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Old 02-24-2010, 05:06 PM   #19
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Default Re: Lebron through 6 seasons compared to other top 10 of all-time players

Solid points. To be fair though, for me personally it seems the most criticism I have seen about Lebron (aside from what trolls say) is not him personally but the hype surrounding him. It is clear he's a once in a lifetime type of player. It is just annoying when people already place him higher than players like Bird, Kobe, etc. on the all-time list.

It's fair to say chances are he will be above them when all is said and done, but when statements like the one above are mentioned I make sure to put them in there place.
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Old 02-24-2010, 05:08 PM   #20
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Default Re: Lebron through 6 seasons compared to other top 10 of all-time players

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Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
So we have Big Z and Mo Williams. Shall we compare those "all-stars" to the all-stars the other players on the list had? For the record, I do consider Jamison a legit all-star but we can talk about that in June when we compare these players through 7 seasons.


Iím sure you would get some really educated responses like well Jordan had player A and Lebron has player B and player A >>>>>player B

with no insight as to why.
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Old 02-24-2010, 05:16 PM   #21
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Default Re: Lebron through 6 seasons compared to other top 10 of all-time players

Quote:
Solid points. To be fair though, for me personally it seems the most criticism I have seen about Lebron (aside from what trolls say) is not him personally but the hype surrounding him. It is clear he's a once in a lifetime type of player. It is just annoying when people already place him higher than players like Bird, Kobe, etc. on the all-time list.

I agree. I used to be anti-Lebron for those reasons. ESPN was ridiculous when Lebron was going 8-0 in the playoffs last year, which is why it was when he lost in the ECF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by schyza
Iím sure you would get some really educated responses like well Jordan had player A and Lebron has player B and player A >>>>>player B

with no insight as to why.

There isn't much speculation required on this. Everyone else had at least one all-star teammate who wound up in the HOF, except for Hakeem and Sampson was on his way to the HOF until he got injured in 86'. Lebron had a fluke all-star in Williams, who got there only after Lebron lobbied for him, and Z. I guess Z is a legit all-star, although he benefited from a weakness at the C position. Had he been a PF would he ever have been an all-star?

Quote:
If look at it from an Age perspective its not even close.

Good point. Some may say that age should not be considered but the bottom line is Lebron coming into the L early gives him extra opportunities to win rings, MVP's, etc. He may have 2 MVP's and a championship at age 25. That leaves a window of about a decade for him to keep winning championships and MVP's.
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Old 02-24-2010, 05:23 PM   #22
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Default Re: Lebron through 6 seasons compared to other top 10 of all-time players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
A lot of people criticize Lebron for what he has not done yet but let's look at what other top 10 of all-time players did at this stage in their careers, that is after 6 seasons in order to have a context to compare Lebron in. Is Lebron lagging far behind?

A few things have to be noted at the outset:

*Lebron came out of high school, unlike everyone else on the list except for Kobe so comparing strictly based on number of seasons is not fair in his case
*Lebron joined a 17 win team--easily the worst team any of these legends started with. The next worst were Kareem, Jordan joining 27 win teams, Bird a 29 win team and Wilt a 32 win team. As you can see, no one was close to 17 wins

The key is to look at relative talent, though. In absolute talent even the 10' Lakers would get killed in the 60's since the league was far less diluted then. However, in relative terms at minimum Lebron's teams are as bad as everyone else on the list and arguably he had the worst squads through 6 seasons, although Lebron does have a good team around him now in his 7th season. The one time he missed time with injury his team went 0-8 without him. This was the same team that Lebron took the 66 win champion Celtics to the final minute of Game 7 in the second round.

Anyway, here are the raw numbers. Make of them what you will.

Championships

Russell 5
Magic 3
Bird 2
Duncan 2
Kobe 2
Kareem 1
Lebron 0
Shaq 0
Hakeem 0
Jordan 0

MVP's

Kareem 3
Bird 2
Duncan 2
Lebron 1
Russell 1
Jordan 1
Wilt 1
Shaq 0
Kobe 0
Hakeem 0

NBA finals

Russell 6
Magic 5
Bird 3
Duncan 2
Kareem 2
Kobe 2
Lebron 1
Wilt 1
Shaq 1
Hakeem 1
Jordan 0

Conference finals

Russell 6
Magic 5
Bird 5
Kareem 4
Wilt 4
Shaq 3
Duncan 3
Kobe 3
Lebron 2
Jordan 2
Hakeem 1

As you can see, Lebron is not tearing it up but he is not underachieving at this point either as some allege. He is on track for a 2nd MVP through 7 seasons and his team has the best record in the league.

this isnt a fair assesment rock. alot of the guys mentioned were on some pretty stacked teams in their first 6 years of playn. and while lebrons teammates may not be great, theyre not bad. i mean, big z was arguably a top 5 center during his prime. mo williams is in the top 3rd at worst as far as pgs go. hes played with boozer for a year, larry hughes was an all-star in washington the year before the cavs picked him up wasnt he? maybe not.
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Old 02-24-2010, 05:24 PM   #23
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Default Re: Lebron through 6 seasons compared to other top 10 of all-time players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
So we have Big Z and Mo Williams. Shall we compare those "all-stars" to the all-stars the other players on the list had?
No one said to. However you're the one who stated LeBron has never played with an all star, which was an incorrect statement.

Last edited by Dave3 : 02-24-2010 at 05:28 PM.
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Old 02-24-2010, 05:28 PM   #24
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Default Re: Lebron through 6 seasons compared to other top 10 of all-time players

Why do people actually consider Mo williams an all star? To me he is a average to good player that disappears in big games.
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Old 02-24-2010, 05:30 PM   #25
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Default Re: Lebron through 6 seasons compared to other top 10 of all-time players

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Originally Posted by Himan12
Why do people actually consider Mo williams an all star? To me he is a average to good player that disappears in big games.
Because he played in an all star game. He's obviously not average. He's a good player, but yeah he disappears a lot recently.
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Old 02-24-2010, 05:34 PM   #26
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Default Re: Lebron through 6 seasons compared to other top 10 of all-time players

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this isnt a fair assesment rock. alot of the guys mentioned were on some pretty stacked teams in their first 6 years of playn. and while lebrons teammates may not be great, theyre not bad. i mean, big z was arguably a top 5 center during his prime. mo williams is in the top 3rd at worst as far as pgs go. hes played with boozer for a year, larry hughes was an all-star in washington the year before the cavs picked him up wasnt he? maybe not.

I agree with 90% of what you said. The point of the OP is to show Lebron is comparable to what the other top players did at this point in his career. I am not saying he has been dominating. Some of them already had multiple rings, multiple MVP's or both at this point.

Boozer was not great when he was in Cleveland, though. Hughes was not an all-star but he was all-star caliber (22/6/5)--in Washington. The best he did in Cleveland was 15.5/4.5/4.

Williams is a top 10 PG but think about that. His best teammate last year is not even in the conversation for top 5 at his position!

All that said, he does have a good team around him now. Jamison, Williams, Shaq, and West are all solid 2-5 guys. Jamison was the #12 scorer in the L before he came to Cleveland, Williams is a perennial 17 ppg guy and Shaq can play very well at times and I expect Shaq to step up his game in the playoffs.

Quote:
Why do people actually consider Mo williams an all star? To me he is a average to good player that disappears in big games.

We have to count him since he was one but would he have been an all-star on any other team? His production in Cleveland is basically the same as what he did in his last two years on the Bucks. Was he ever in the all-star conversation when he played in Milwaukee?

Last edited by Roundball_Rock : 02-24-2010 at 05:36 PM.
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Old 02-24-2010, 05:37 PM   #27
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Default Re: Lebron through 6 seasons compared to other top 10 of all-time players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
I agree with 90% of what you said. The point of the OP is to show Lebron is comparable to what the other top players did at this point in his career. I am not saying he has been dominating. Some of them already had multiple rings, multiple MVP's or both at this point.

Boozer was not great when he was in Cleveland, though. Hughes was not an all-star but he was all-star caliber (22/6/5)--in Washington. The best he did in Cleveland was 15.5/4.5/4.

Williams is a top 10 PG but think about that. His best teammate last year is not even in the conversation for top 5 at his position!

All that said, he does have a good team around him now. Jamison, Williams, Shaq, and West are all solid 2-5 guys. Jamison was the #12 scorer in the L before he came to Cleveland, Williams is a perennial 17 ppg guy and Shaq can play very well at times and I expect Shaq to step up his game in the playoffs.



We have to count him since he was one but would he have been an all-star on any other team? His production in Cleveland is basically the same as what he did in his last two years on the Bucks. Was he ever in the all-star conversation when he played in Milwaukee?
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Old 02-24-2010, 06:22 PM   #28
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Default Re: Lebron through 6 seasons compared to other top 10 of all-time players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
A lot of people criticize Lebron for what he has not done yet but let's look at what other top 10 of all-time players did at this stage in their careers, that is after 6 seasons in order to have a context to compare Lebron in. Is Lebron lagging far behind?

A few things have to be noted at the outset:

*Lebron came out of high school, unlike everyone else on the list except for Kobe so comparing strictly based on number of seasons is not fair in his case
*Lebron joined a 17 win team--easily the worst team any of these legends started with. The next worst were Kareem, Jordan joining 27 win teams, Bird a 29 win team and Wilt a 32 win team. As you can see, no one was close to 17 wins

The key is to look at relative talent, though. In absolute talent even the 10' Lakers would get killed in the 60's since the league was far less diluted then. However, in relative terms at minimum Lebron's teams are as bad as everyone else on the list and arguably he had the worst squads through 6 seasons, although Lebron does have a good team around him now in his 7th season. The one time he missed time with injury his team went 0-8 without him. This was the same team that Lebron took the 66 win champion Celtics to the final minute of Game 7 in the second round.

Anyway, here are the raw numbers. Make of them what you will.

Championships

Russell 5
Magic 3
Bird 2
Duncan 2
Kobe 2
Kareem 1
Lebron 0
Shaq 0
Hakeem 0
Jordan 0

MVP's

Kareem 3
Bird 2
Duncan 2
Lebron 1
Russell 1
Jordan 1
Wilt 1
Shaq 0
Kobe 0
Hakeem 0

NBA finals

Russell 6
Magic 5
Bird 3
Duncan 2
Kareem 2
Kobe 2
Lebron 1
Wilt 1
Shaq 1
Hakeem 1
Jordan 0

Conference finals

Russell 6
Magic 5
Bird 5
Kareem 4
Wilt 4
Shaq 3
Duncan 3
Kobe 3
Lebron 2
Jordan 2
Hakeem 1

As you can see, Lebron is not tearing it up but he is not underachieving at this point either as some allege. He is on track for a 2nd MVP through 7 seasons and his team has the best record in the league.

With Russell wasn't a conference final basically the first round? Just something to note...

-Smak
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Old 02-24-2010, 08:15 PM   #29
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Default Re: Lebron through 6 seasons compared to other top 10 of all-time players

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTicket
Btw Lebron might not have been without an allstar teammate as you originally claimed, but he was the only one who didnt play with a Hall of Famer in his first 6 seasons.

Edit: Strike that, Hakeem didn't either.

Ralph Sampson was the All-Star game MVP in 1985.
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Old 02-24-2010, 08:43 PM   #30
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Default Re: Lebron through 6 seasons compared to other top 10 of all-time players

LBJ is hyped like no other NBA athlete has ever been hyped, so thats why so many people pick on him for what he hasnt done. He's expected to win the MVP, win the championship, win the finals MVP. Anything else is a failure due to the hype.

Hyping him as potentially the greatest of all time in a era declining superstar champions like Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan, he's expected to carry the torch and dominate, but he hasnt so far.
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