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Old 04-12-2010, 12:13 AM   #16
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Default Re: It looks like Vinnie is on his way out.... ESPN

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamaraw08
Pretty good post, you made some valid points esp on things he can't control. There are things however that he can control like
1.not having to put Pargo in the game at all.
2.Providing better half court set plays with better options
3.not putting Kirk on players that can overpower/shooter over him,
4. Realizing Salmons is more suited as a SF and not a SG, etc etc.
5. Finding a better way to put TT in a position to succeed.
Not only did Rose and Noah flourished under him, but I also think he should be creditted for nice rookie season of Gibson.
Bulls was among the worst in defense 2 years ago and has significantly improved under Vinny. I really think this team would have succeeded with BETTER assistants.

Hey I don't think Vinny is the best coach out there by any means.

SOME things we as fans aren't privvy to though so we can't really say with 100% certainty that it's Gar/Pax/VDN's fault...

I agree that his rotation [Pargo's playing time] needs work.

Although I don't agree that Salmons is better suited at the three the way he's playing SG for the Bucks right now.

I don't think we have enough talent to blame Vinny for offensive sets. Sans Rose we are very 'blah' at the offensive end compared to most teams.

I think Vinny should get credit for the good points of the offense as well as the bad.

Having a player like Noah or Miller at the high post and passing it to Rose on the back cut works well and utilizes our strengths.

Better assistants would work imo....

The thing about trading for another coach is that maybe, just maybe the new guy rubs our young guys the wrong way and disrupts team chemistry.

I'd love to have Byron Scott, JVG, or Avery Johnson.....but then we'd have to pay them. I think a wise assistant and some better plays are what we need.

*along with a FA and a jump shooter*
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Old 04-12-2010, 04:26 AM   #17
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Default Re: It looks like Vinnie is on his way out.... ESPN

Vdn is a good coach I think that we just lack a good sg. I am very sure pargo getting play time was not vdn choice. Our hand was forced from higher ranks this year I'm sure. Some things we could have done is work on some pick and rolls getting deng and taj some 18 footers. Also our post game could be improved with some pick and roll to the basket sets. Alot of problems right now is our lack of 3 point game. In order for the floor to open up we need it.
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Old 04-12-2010, 11:22 AM   #18
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Default Re: It looks like Vinnie is on his way out.... ESPN

coaches are only as good as their team. that is all.
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Old 04-12-2010, 11:31 AM   #19
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Default Re: It looks like Vinnie is on his way out.... ESPN

People point at the exit sign way to soon in this city.

ZOMG, a coach with little experience and a weak staff makes bad calls. I am in SHOCK, FIRE HIM!!! GRRRR!

Some people think if VDN is fired, that the Bulls will replace him with a reputable coach. Wake up, smell the roses pal. The Bulls will surprise everyone, and hire another unproven coach. They wont hire JVG, they wont hire Avery Johnson, and Byron Scott will not be the Bulls coach. Think like Jerry, he will not support it. Especially Avery Johnson and JVG.

This organization is going to look at fiscal matters, before it looks at anything else. As said above, it is smarter to get better assistants. Bernie Bickerstaff has been a coaching cancer forever, but people don't target him to get fired?

Just like all of the other ex-Bulls that we have gotten rid of, because we thought it was smart. Skiles, maybe Salmons ect, the media, all just want pitchforks and torch mobs running down Paxsons door after every Bulls loss and mistake. Some of the fans are so gulible, they buy into it, linch the team, and complain until a change is made, then when the change was a bad idea, they complain that the change was made to begin with.
Mark my words, if VDN goes to coach another team, he will punish the Bulls, he will be THAT guy, the guy who makes everyone wonder what would have happened if we kept him.
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Old 04-12-2010, 02:11 PM   #20
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Default Re: It looks like Vinnie is on his way out.... ESPN

I don't think VDN has what it takes to be a head coach in this league. Yet. He was just shoved into a job he wasn't ready for. He was never even an assistant coach. He should have gotten atleast some assistant coaching experience before he got thrown into a head coaching role he wasn't prepared to handle. He's a good guy. He's a likeable human being. And he seems like a good person overall. But his coaching decisions drive me crazy. No we don't know exactly what goes on and what are truly his decisions and what aren't, but for the most part he leaves me scratching my head a great deal. His substitution patterns, play calls, the lack of more variety on both ends of the court, the lack of taking advantage of certain matchups. The assistant coaches are all horrible in my opinion. I've said from the beginning that at the end of the season the whole staff should be fired and when or if we bring in a new head coach he should bring in an entirely new staff of his choice.
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Old 04-12-2010, 05:02 PM   #21
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Default Re: It looks like Vinnie is on his way out.... ESPN

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystallas
People point at the exit sign way to soon in this city.

ZOMG, a coach with little experience and a weak staff makes bad calls. I am in SHOCK, FIRE HIM!!! GRRRR!

Some people think if VDN is fired, that the Bulls will replace him with a reputable coach. Wake up, smell the roses pal. The Bulls will surprise everyone, and hire another unproven coach. They wont hire JVG, they wont hire Avery Johnson, and Byron Scott will not be the Bulls coach. Think like Jerry, he will not support it. Especially Avery Johnson and JVG.

This organization is going to look at fiscal matters, before it looks at anything else. As said above, it is smarter to get better assistants. Bernie Bickerstaff has been a coaching cancer forever, but people don't target him to get fired?

Just like all of the other ex-Bulls that we have gotten rid of, because we thought it was smart. Skiles, maybe Salmons ect, the media, all just want pitchforks and torch mobs running down Paxsons door after every Bulls loss and mistake. Some of the fans are so gulible, they buy into it, linch the team, and complain until a change is made, then when the change was a bad idea, they complain that the change was made to begin with.
Mark my words, if VDN goes to coach another team, he will punish the Bulls, he will be THAT guy, the guy who makes everyone wonder what would have happened if we kept him.

Vinnie has shown me nothing..... absolutely ZERO.... which makes me believe or fear that he will be "that guy" that you refer to. In fact, he has shown me the opposite. He often looks like a deer stuck in headlights at critical times during a game..... his substitution patterns lack rhyme or reason.... and his inability to exploit matchups or to be creative when designing plays are all things that have drivin Bull fans nuts this season.

Like I said, it is nothing personal. He was simply the wrong man from the beginning. If the Bulls had seasoned him as a Assistant Coach first, he might have succeeded at this job. But as it stands, the guy has not gotten it done.

Hell even Phil Jackson paid his dues as an Assistant before becoming HC.

....
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Old 04-12-2010, 05:02 PM   #22
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Default Re: It looks like Vinnie is on his way out.... ESPN

Quote:
Originally Posted by ljsbb27
I don't think VDN has what it takes to be a head coach in this league. Yet. He was just shoved into a job he wasn't ready for. He was never even an assistant coach. He should have gotten atleast some assistant coaching experience before he got thrown into a head coaching role he wasn't prepared to handle. He's a good guy. He's a likeable human being. And he seems like a good person overall. But his coaching decisions drive me crazy. No we don't know exactly what goes on and what are truly his decisions and what aren't, but for the most part he leaves me scratching my head a great deal. His substitution patterns, play calls, the lack of more variety on both ends of the court, the lack of taking advantage of certain matchups. The assistant coaches are all horrible in my opinion. I've said from the beginning that at the end of the season the whole staff should be fired and when or if we bring in a new head coach he should bring in an entirely new staff of his choice.


Great post. Totally agree here.
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Old 04-12-2010, 06:18 PM   #23
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Default Re: It looks like Vinnie is on his way out.... ESPN

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTruth11
his substitution patterns lack rhyme or reason.... and his inability to exploit matchups or to be creative when designing plays are all things that have drivin Bull fans nuts this season.

You just described that standard Bernie Bickerstaff game plan.
Unlike Bernie, VDN has the ability to grow, and he'll have 2 years of experience behind him. Unfortunately, when you have to learn from your assistants, you have to support them regardless if they are right or wrong. Showing that kind of struggle is a fail. Have you not any team management skills? Any expert of management in a competitive environment can see where the problem lies.

I'll break it down, and please don't take any offense, as this may sound patronizing.
The Head Coach needs to manage the flow of the game and player morale.
In order to do so; The HC needs to rely on an assistant to communicate with players on how each player is being beaten on matchups.
-Vinny has Bernie, in retirement mode, sleeping on his duties with matchup exploitations. What does VDN do? He asks his team captains, and role players directly. This system can work when supplementing for the primary, however a high morale player is going to want to push through, try again, and play through tough spots regardless. Even if Hakim Warrick can exploit a team, Taj isn't going to say "Coach, I should sit when player-x is out there." It's a downfall.

Another assistant needs to be involved in technical aspects, such as keeping track of what the refs are calling, and the stat categories that are lopsided.
-Bob Ociepka ACTUALLY hasn't done that bad of a job. We make the changes, but as far as the refs, they have been unpredictable all year for many teams. The Bulls have subbed to adjust stats when possible, and if the stamina was controlled better, I would say Bob should be safe.

Then you need an assistant who is deeply involved in special plays that exploit the scouting reports. Pre-game designed and scratch plays.
-I'm guessing this has been Pete Meyers for most of the season. Nuff said.

Lastly, you need your trainer/coach to monitor the stamina and overall health of each player.
-The last part of a long line of Jerry friends from the worst Bulls teams. Fred Tedeschi. Why is he here, and how could he sleep on key players, watch them get hurt, and then STILL be here. I have no idea. I have some awesome season tickets, and I can see this guy fumbling on his cell phone, and messing with his clipboard more than the idiotblock fans who happen to tag along with a passionate fan to the game.
Severns is okay in my book. Of course, if theres an upgrade, by all means, but he can stay while nearly everyone else gets fired.

You do realize that Vinny is taking on far too much, in order to be efficient at this level? The best head coaches would make the same mistakes in such conditions. But the best coaches would also have the pull, to hire their named staff, and discipline any assistants who fail to do their job. The front office took VDN's power away to control his staff, when the media called for VDN's head in December, back when the Bulls had a 1/2 able Rose, Hinrich, TT's headcase, and Salmon's disappearing act to deal with, but when the Bulls got healthy and came back, there was no reassurance whatsoever. There was no criteria set, just flat out GM/VP saying, if the media doesn't like you, then we don't care. And this is Chicago media, a bunch of assholes that play devils advocate 365 days a year, even when the Blackhawks were leading the NHL, they put out 4 stories about the team weaknesses for every 1 about the teams achievements. The damn goalie controversy filled the backspace of the Sun-Times for months.

But I know why people blame Vinny. Because he takes responsibility for the mistakes of his staff. Ultimately they are his mistakes, so he should. If it were me, and I was trying as hard as VDN, at some point, I would realize that I'm not the problem, and something else was broken. However Vinny can deal with the situation, I do not know how. I have never seen a Head Coach handle all of this BS the way that he has. BTW, I'd appreciate if you read my whole post before quoting a sniplet of it, and missing the rest of the point. Jerry is cheap, he will hire another unproven coach if VDN is fired.

Last edited by Crystallas : 04-12-2010 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 04-12-2010, 06:45 PM   #24
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Default Re: It looks like Vinnie is on his way out.... ESPN

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystallas
You just described that standard Bernie Bickerstaff game plan.
Unlike Bernie, VDN has the ability to grow, and he'll have 2 years of experience behind him. Unfortunately, when you have to learn from your assistants, you have to support them regardless if they are right or wrong. Showing that kind of struggle is a fail. Have you not any team management skills? Any expert of management in a competitive environment can see where the problem lies.

I'll break it down, and please don't take any offense, as this may sound patronizing.
The Head Coach needs to manage the flow of the game and player morale.
In order to do so; The HC needs to rely on an assistant to communicate with players on how each player is being beaten on matchups.
-Vinny has Bernie, in retirement mode, sleeping on his duties with matchup exploitations. What does VDN do? He asks his team captains, and role players directly. This system can work when supplementing for the primary, however a high morale player is going to want to push through, try again, and play through tough spots regardless. Even if Hakim Warrick can exploit a team, Taj isn't going to say "Coach, I should sit when player-x is out there." It's a downfall.

Another assistant needs to be involved in technical aspects, such as keeping track of what the refs are calling, and the stat categories that are lopsided.
-Bob Ociepka ACTUALLY hasn't done that bad of a job. We make the changes, but as far as the refs, they have been unpredictable all year for many teams. The Bulls have subbed to adjust stats when possible, and if the stamina was controlled better, I would say Bob should be safe.

Then you need an assistant who is deeply involved in special plays that exploit the scouting reports. Pre-game designed and scratch plays.
-I'm guessing this has been Pete Meyers for most of the season. Nuff said.

Lastly, you need your trainer/coach to monitor the stamina and overall health of each player.
-The last part of a long line of Jerry friends from the worst Bulls teams. Fred Tedeschi. Why is he here, and how could he sleep on key players, watch them get hurt, and then STILL be here. I have no idea. I have some awesome season tickets, and I can see this guy fumbling on his cell phone, and messing with his clipboard more than the idiotblock fans who happen to tag along with a passionate fan to the game.
Severns is okay in my book. Of course, if theres an upgrade, by all means, but he can stay while nearly everyone else gets fired.

You do realize that Vinny is taking on far too much, in order to be efficient at this level? The best head coaches would make the same mistakes in such conditions. But the best coaches would also have the pull, to hire their named staff, and discipline any assistants who fail to do their job. The front office took VDN's power away to control his staff, when the media called for VDN's head in December, back when the Bulls had a 1/2 able Rose, Hinrich, TT's headcase, and Salmon's disappearing act to deal with, but when the Bulls got healthy and came back, there was no reassurance whatsoever. There was no criteria set, just flat out GM/VP saying, if the media doesn't like you, then we don't care. And this is Chicago media, a bunch of assholes that play devils advocate 365 days a year, even when the Blackhawks were leading the NHL, they put out 4 stories about the team weaknesses for every 1 about the teams achievements. The damn goalie controversy filled the backspace of the Sun-Times for months.

But I know why people blame Vinny. Because he takes responsibility for the mistakes of his staff. Ultimately they are his mistakes, so he should. If it were me, and I was trying as hard as VDN, at some point, I would realize that I'm not the problem, and something else was broken. However Vinny can deal with the situation, I do not know how. I have never seen a Head Coach handle all of this BS the way that he has. BTW, I'd appreciate if you read my whole post before quoting a sniplet of it, and missing the rest of the point. Jerry is cheap, he will hire another unproven coach if VDN is fired.

So if we follow your logic, Phil Jackson is not a great coach.... he has great assistants.

Doc Rivers is not a great coach.... he just has great assistants.

Pat Riley was not a great coach.... he just had great assistants.

Jeff VanGundy is not a great coach.... he just has great assistants.

And so forth and so on it goes.

I call bullsh*t.

The head man can overrule his assistants at any time. The headman has to be smart enough, experienced enough, knowlegeable enough and strong enough to overrule an assistant or direct an assistant as to his wishes.

And yes, you were patronizing as hell but I took no offense. And I have run a company before. And running a company is far different than coaching a basketball team. The two do NOT compare. On the bench, decisions are immediate.... and the parties making those decisions are right there beside you. If you don't like something they are doing, you can correct it immediately.

Companies are far different. You have bureaucratic delay and all sorts of chain of command issues. And the people making those decisions can be located in the next office over or in an entirely different state or country. And lastly, change occurs much slower. Decisions are typically made at a much slower, deliberate pace (meetings, memos, strategy sessions, stockholder meetings, etc. etc).

There is no comparison.

Vinnie has to go. Moreover, for the upper brass to float that news story and make what should have been an "in house" situation public, tells you that Vinnie is likely on his way out.

That was the classic "Chicago Way" of laying the groundwork for a firing.



......

Last edited by TheTruth11 : 04-12-2010 at 09:02 PM.
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Old 04-12-2010, 07:35 PM   #25
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Default Re: It looks like Vinnie is on his way out.... ESPN

Following my logic, Phil Jackson had some very good assistants, and great players. Doc Rivers, the same. Pat Riley had control to make changes in staffing, so that was never a problem. Jeff Van Gundy great? How did he make your list? Nevermind, I don't care about that.

There is a valid comparison between managament of any business, whether sport, or pushing paper. It all depends on how compeditive an industry to make the connections between such.

I doubt you have ever run a company. Maybe a failed business, not a successful one. The reason I say that, is a good company can salvage personel. A bad company can make good personel seem likewise. Your strong opions lead me to the assumption that you had a turnover rate greater than 85% with such philosophy.
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Old 04-12-2010, 08:01 PM   #26
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Default Re: It looks like Vinnie is on his way out.... ESPN

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystallas
Following my logic, Phil Jackson had some very good assistants, and great players. Doc Rivers, the same. Pat Riley had control to make changes in staffing, so that was never a problem. Jeff Van Gundy great? How did he make your list? Nevermind, I don't care about that.

There is a valid comparison between managament of any business, whether sport, or pushing paper. It all depends on how compeditive an industry to make the connections between such.

I doubt you have ever run a company. Maybe a failed business, not a successful one. The reason I say that, is a good company can salvage personel. A bad company can make good personel seem likewise. Your strong opions lead me to the assumption that you had a turnover rate greater than 85% with such philosophy.
In short:

The whole is never greater than the sum of its' parts.

I can dig on this.
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Old 04-12-2010, 09:50 PM   #27
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Default Re: It looks like Vinnie is on his way out.... ESPN

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystallas
Following my logic, Phil Jackson had some very good assistants, and great players. Doc Rivers, the same. Pat Riley had control to make changes in staffing, so that was never a problem. Jeff Van Gundy great? How did he make your list? Nevermind, I don't care about that.

There is a valid comparison between managament of any business, whether sport, or pushing paper. It all depends on how compeditive an industry to make the connections between such.

I doubt you have ever run a company. Maybe a failed business, not a successful one. The reason I say that, is a good company can salvage personel. A bad company can make good personel seem likewise. Your strong opions lead me to the assumption that you had a turnover rate greater than 85% with such philosophy.

I appreciate your opinion..... no matter how wrong it may be. You have the right to voice it. And I have the right to disregard it. Continue as you wish my friend.

In the final analysis, whether you like it or not, people with alot more experience in the game than both you or I possess have likely made a decision. And it looks more and more like they have decided to fire Vinnie.

And I think they are right.


....

Last edited by TheTruth11 : 04-12-2010 at 09:53 PM.
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Old 04-12-2010, 10:31 PM   #28
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Default Re: It looks like Vinnie is on his way out.... ESPN

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTruth11
So if we follow your logic, Phil Jackson is not a great coach.... he has great assistants.

Doc Rivers is not a great coach.... he just has great assistants.

Pat Riley was not a great coach.... he just had great assistants.

Jeff VanGundy is not a great coach.... he just has great assistants.

And so forth and so on it goes.

I call bullsh*t.

The head man can overrule his assistants at any time. The headman has to be smart enough, experienced enough, knowlegeable enough and strong enough to overrule an assistant or direct an assistant as to his wishes.

And yes, you were patronizing as hell but I took no offense. And I have run a company before. And running a company is far different than coaching a basketball team. The two do NOT compare. On the bench, decisions are immediate.... and the parties making those decisions are right there beside you. If you don't like something they are doing, you can correct it immediately.

Companies are far different. You have bureaucratic delay and all sorts of chain of command issues. And the people making those decisions can be located in the next office over or in an entirely different state or country. And lastly, change occurs much slower. Decisions are typically made at a much slower, deliberate pace (meetings, memos, strategy sessions, stockholder meetings, etc. etc).

There is no comparison.

Vinnie has to go. Moreover, for the upper brass to float that news story and make what should have been an "in house" situation public, tells you that Vinnie is likely on his way out.

That was the classic "Chicago Way" of laying the groundwork for a firing.



......

Phil had Tex Winters, the inventor of triangle offense, had Kurt Rambis, still has 2 really good assistants which he demanded to bring along from Chicago.
Riley relied heavily on JVG, SVG and Randy Pfund.
Inturn, JVG depended on Tom Thibodaux who is the main defensive coordinator of Boston.
Stan Van Gundy now has Brendan Malone, a key assistant of the late Chuck Daly... etc etc etc.
There are LEGIT REASONS why these GENIUSES do theire BEST to bring their trusted assistants whereever they go.
Do I think Jeff Van Gundy would have done a better job than VDN even without Tom? Absolutely!
But I am sure tho that Jeff would have demanded to get a more competent crew beside him.
Cryst basically explained the difficulties of doing your job w/o any real help.
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Old 04-13-2010, 12:26 AM   #29
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Default Re: It looks like Vinnie is on his way out.... ESPN

I'd still rather have a better more experienced head coach leading a team of improved assistant coaches opposed to keeping VDN with better assistant coaches.
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Old 04-13-2010, 12:56 AM   #30
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Default Re: It looks like Vinnie is on his way out.... ESPN

Quote:
Originally Posted by ljsbb27
I'd still rather have a better more experienced head coach leading a team of improved assistant coaches opposed to keeping VDN with better assistant coaches.

Its the chicken or the egg thing. A proven coach would DEMAND to bring in his trusted/proven assistants and not allow himself in a position to fail by agreeing to be assisted by just any aides who can't do their job right.
Vinny was too desparate that he agreed to this crappy set up.
I woudn't not be surprised if he finds an assistant coaching gig somewhere just like Terry Porter, Stotts, Reggie Theus etc. Bringing the Bulls to be one of the worse in defense 2 years ago to be very good this year is an accomplishment IMO.

Last edited by tamaraw08 : 04-13-2010 at 12:58 AM.
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