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Old 05-15-2010, 07:12 PM   #16
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Default Re: The supporting casts of the all time greats...

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Originally Posted by t-rex
Thanks for the compliment. Just to make sure my memory wasn't completely failing me, I went back and looked at the Bulls of the late 1990s. And Kukoc came of the bench until 1998.
true but u made an exception for mchale. besides. its not who starts but who finishes.
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Old 05-15-2010, 07:18 PM   #17
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Default Re: The supporting casts of the all time greats...

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Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
You still haven't mentioned why you listed Shaq as part of the supporting cast on those Laker teams when Shaq was CLEARLY the number 1 guys on those teams, something Kobe has acknowledged.


Please read the OP. I mentioned that what I did for Jabbar and Magic could have (and probably should have) been done for Shaq/Kobe. As I mentioned in the OP, I left it as Kobe being the #1 because of the Kobe/Lebron debates going on everwhere. That's all.

But to be clear, I think those were Shaqs rings more than they are Kobe's.


Sometimes I think when discussions like this come up, there is a bias against bigs.


For instance I hear all the time how for every championship Jabbar won, he had Oscar Robertson or Magic at guard. But nobody ever turns it around to say that neither Oscar Robertson or Magic Johnson (arguably the 2 best PGs of all time) every one a championship without Kareem.

When Shaq left, Kobe Bryant played several years at the peak of his prime and was barely making the playoffs or quickly exiting in the first round. I don't think it's ironic that he only one his 4th championship when the Lakers found a replacment for Shaq and Pau Gasol came in to his own.


Infact if you look at the history objectively, the numbers are clear. Kobe Bryant can't win a championship without a dominate big in the middle.
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Old 05-15-2010, 07:20 PM   #18
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Default Re: The supporting casts of the all time greats...

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Originally Posted by 97 bulls
true but u made an exception for mchale. besides. its not who starts but who finishes.

Actually I didn't make an exception.

Mchale started in 1986. He came off the bench in 1984 and 1981.
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Old 05-15-2010, 07:24 PM   #19
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Default Re: The supporting casts of the all time greats...

Quote:
Originally Posted by t-rex
Please read the OP. I mentioned that what I did for Jabbar and Magic could have (and probably should have) been done for Shaq/Kobe. As I mentioned in the OP, I left it as Kobe being the #1 because of the Kobe/Lebron debates going on everwhere. That's all.

But to be clear, I think those were Shaqs rings more than they are Kobe's.


Sometimes I think when discussions like this come up, there is a bias against bigs.


For instance I hear all the time how for every championship Jabbar won, he had Oscar Robertson or Magic at guard. But nobody ever turns it around to say that neither Oscar Robertson or Magic Johnson (arguably the 2 best PGs of all time) every one a championship without Kareem.

When Shaq left, Kobe Bryant played several years at the peak of his prime and was barely making the playoffs or quickly exiting in the first round. I don't think it's ironic that he only one his 4th championship when the Lakers found a replacment for Shaq and Pau Gasol came in to his own.


Infact if you look at the history objectively, the numbers are clear. Kobe Bryant can't win a championship without a dominate big in the middle.

Yeah, but it is a bit different than the KAJ/Magic debate. Kareem was the clear number 1 guy in 1980, but it was debatable in 1982 and 1985(though I thought Kareem was better in 1982 as well and Magic in 1985). The Kobe/Lebron debate is kind of pointless, IMO, particularly since Kobe wasn't even a superstar in 2000 when he won his first title. But the 2009 cast is a better comparison to Lebron anyway because it's in the same era as Lebron's prime. To me, it makes sense to list each title seperately and the best player and cast for each, particularly in the 80's Lakers case and the 00's Lakers.
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Old 05-15-2010, 07:31 PM   #20
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Default Re: The supporting casts of the all time greats...

I would argue that Dr. J was in Moses Malone's supporting cast and not the other way around.

Moses Malone
Dr.J
Bobby Jones
Mo Cheeks
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Old 05-15-2010, 07:33 PM   #21
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Default Re: The supporting casts of the all time greats...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dasher
I would argue that Dr. J was in Moses Malone's supporting cast and not the other way around.

Moses Malone
Dr.J
Bobby Jones
Mo Cheeks
i agree, dr.j was in the twighlight of his career by 83
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Old 05-15-2010, 07:36 PM   #22
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Default Re: The supporting casts of the all time greats...

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Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Yeah, but it is a bit different than the KAJ/Magic debate. Kareem was the clear number 1 guy in 1980, but it was debatable in 1982 and 1985(though I thought Kareem was better in 1982 as well and Magic in 1985). The Kobe/Lebron debate is kind of pointless, IMO, particularly since Kobe wasn't even a superstar in 2000 when he won his first title. But the 2009 cast is a better comparison to Lebron anyway because it's in the same era as Lebron's prime. To me, it makes sense to list each title seperately and the best player and cast for each, particularly in the 80's Lakers case and the 00's Lakers.


I think I did that.

I gave Kareem the titles in 1980, 82 and 85.

I gave Magic the titles in 87 and 88.

In my view I would give Shaq the titles in 00,01,02

And I would give Kobe 09.


Kobe Bryant's supporting cast in 2009/20010 is much better than anything Lebron has ever had. There is nobody on the Cavs roster after Lebron that is close to Gasol.

In fact as I think about it, Bynum, Gasol, and Odom are better than anyone on Lebron's supporting cast. In a big spot Fisher is better than Mo Williams and Phil Jackson is a far better coach than Mike Brown. It really isn't close. And that's why Kobe has a ring (2009) and Lebron doesn't.
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Old 05-15-2010, 07:43 PM   #23
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Default Re: The supporting casts of the all time greats...

Oh damn...I'm kinda shocked. Out of all of that list, I think Hakeem had the least talented supporting cast. Well, not that i'm shocked but I never thought about it.

Drexler is the HOFer on Hakeem's cast list. But at the time, Drexler was like two-three seasons remove from retirement.

MJ had Pippen at his prime. Kobe had Shaq at his prime.
Wade had Shaq, not at his prime but still dominating over most centers playing in the league.

We all know how great Bird and Magic's supporting cast were.

But t obe fair, Hakeem also had Jordan in the minor league baseball too though in '94.
'95 MJ was "rusty" when he came back.
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Old 05-15-2010, 07:46 PM   #24
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Default Re: The supporting casts of the all time greats...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dasher
I would argue that Dr. J was in Moses Malone's supporting cast and not the other way around.

Moses Malone
Dr.J
Bobby Jones
Mo Cheeks


Good call. I thought about that long and hard. I went with Dr.J because he was the "leader" of the team. But on the court, there is no question Moses Malone was the Sixers best player. He led the Sixers in scoring that year.

In fact, Dr. J made it to the finals in 1977, 1980 and 1982 but came up short. It was only when he was paired with an all time great center, (who arguably was better than he was even in his prime) did he win a Championship.

As for Moses Malone. After the ABA, he came to the NBA and dominated the league. He got to the NBA finals in 1981. But couldn't win a title. It was only when he joined Dr. J and Andrew Toney that he could finally win a championship. Interestingly, a year or two later Malone was traded from the Sixers and without a supporting cast in Washington, never threated for a title again.


This is my point. If you look at many of these teams, they are so stacked with talent we can't even determine who the stars and members of the supporting cast are suppose to be! It takes a team to win a championship. One player doesn't do it alone.


Remember Jordan's supporting cast won just 2 less games without him when comparing the Bulls of 1993 to the Bulls of 1994.

Last edited by t-rex : 05-15-2010 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 05-15-2010, 07:51 PM   #25
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Default Re: The supporting casts of the all time greats...

Quote:
Originally Posted by t-rex
Good call. I thought about that long and hard. I went with Dr.J because he was the "leader" of the team. But on the court, there is no question Moses Malone was the Sixers best player. He led the Sixers in scoring that year.

In fact, Dr. J made it to the finals in 1977, 1980 and 1982 but came up short. It was only with he was paired with an all time great center, (who arguably was better than he was even in his prime) did he win a Championship.

As for Moses Malone. After the ABA, he came to the NBA and dominated the league. He got to the NBA finals in 1981. But couldn't win a title. It was only when he joined Dr. J and Andrew Toney could he finally win a championship. Interestingly, a year or two later Malone was traded from the Sixers and without a supporting cast in Washington, never threated for a title again.


This is my point. If you look at many of these teams, they are so stacked with talent we can't even determine who the stars and members of the supporting cast are suppose to be! It takes a team to win a championship. One player doesn't do it alone.


Remember Jordan's supporting cast won just 2 less games than when he was with them when comparing the Bulls of 1993 to the Bulls of 1994.
i see where your going with this. but i would submit to you that unlike lebron, nobody is calling moses or dr.j the "greatest ever".
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Old 05-15-2010, 07:56 PM   #26
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Default Re: The supporting casts of the all time greats...

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Originally Posted by 97 bulls
i see where your going with this. but i would submit to you that unlike lebron, nobody is calling moses or dr.j the "greatest ever".
At one time they were. Dr.J is arguably the reason that the ABA-NBA merger went down.
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Old 05-15-2010, 07:57 PM   #27
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Default Re: The supporting casts of the all time greats...

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Originally Posted by 97 bulls
i see where your going with this. but i would submit to you that unlike lebron, nobody is calling moses or dr.j the "greatest ever".

I'm not calling Malone or Dr. J an all time great either. I was just answering a question. I have seen some who put Dr. J among the greats to play the game. But among the players I have seen play, he clearly is not in the class of a Bird, Magic, Lebron, Kobe, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan or Wade. At least not in my opinion.


In retrospect I probably should have kept the 1983 Sixers out of the OP. But I was typing from memory and heck, I was on a role!
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Old 05-15-2010, 08:00 PM   #28
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Default Re: The supporting casts of the all time greats...

Quote:
Originally Posted by t-rex
I'm not calling Malone or Dr. J an all time great either. I was just answering a question. I have seen some who put Dr. J among the greats to play the game. But among the players I have seen play, he clearly is not in the class of a Bird, Magic, Lebron, Kobe, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan or Wade. At least not in my opinion.


In retrospect I probably should have kept the 1983 Sixers out of the OP. But I was typing from memory and heck, I was on a role!
What? Dr. J and Moses are BETTER than Kobe and Wade. It can be argued that LeBron is a Dr. J analogue for crying out loud. Dr.J is a near pantheon level player, and is only not seen as such because of the diminishing of his ABA accomplishments by biased basketball historians.
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Old 05-15-2010, 08:03 PM   #29
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Default Re: The supporting casts of the all time greats...

and when i think about it, i can make a case that shaq is just as good now, as karemm was in 87. even more considering the sorry state of the centers nowadays.

shaq averaged 12 ppg and 7 rbds on 57% shooting in 23 minutes of play. and kareem averaged 17 7 on 55% in 31 mpg.
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Old 05-15-2010, 08:09 PM   #30
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Default Re: The supporting casts of the all time greats...

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At one time they were. Dr.J is arguably the reason that the ABA-NBA merger went down.


Dr J was a great embassador to the game. He was extremely marketable at a time when the NBA largely was not. He was an outstanding leader. And he always conducted himself well. He had outstanding commercial appeal. He is a class act. His personality and style carried the league during his darkest hour.

But on the court, in my view, his game was not among the "first tier" of all time great players.


Julius Erving does have one arguement on his behalf.

The World never saw him play in the prime of his career.

The NBA was not always the way it is today.

During the 1970s not all games were telecast. Even into the early 1980s the NBA finals were shown at 11:30pm EST on tape delay. This is because the TV ratings were bad. And the sport was unpopular. And that was the NBA. The ABA was 1,000 time worse. Erving was rarely on TV. And he played before largely empty arenas.


Nobody saw Dr. J when he was at his best.


By the time the NBA was "reborn" in the 1980s, many people were introduced to Dr. J for the first time. But by then, Erving was well past his prime. As another poster noted, even in 1983, Erving is not in the prime of his career.

I believe that when Erving retired, if you count his ABA and NBA stats, he finished as the 3rd leading scorer in pro basketball history. And he did get the Sixers to the NBA Finals 3 times (77,80,82), even after his "prime" early ABA days were mostly over. He was that good.

But he needed Moses Malone (and Malone needed him) to put the Sixers over the top.

I have had several "old timers" who love basketball tell me that if the world could have seen Erving in his prime, he would be ranked higher on the GOAT list.


But good call, Erving was a a big reason pro basketball stayed afloat in the late 1970s.
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