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Old 05-15-2010, 08:20 PM   #31
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Default Re: The supporting casts of the all time greats...

How could you leave out the greatest example of team support of all time?

2004 Detroit Pistons, where Billups, Hamilton, R. Wallace, B. Wallace, and Prince all supported each other, no man contributing more so than the next. It doesn't get any greater than that. 5 guys supporting 5 guys. Not 3 supporting 2 or 4 supporting 1.
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Old 05-15-2010, 08:21 PM   #32
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Default Re: The supporting casts of the all time greats...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dasher
What? Dr. J and Moses are BETTER than Kobe and Wade. It can be argued that LeBron is a Dr. J analogue for crying out loud. Dr.J is a near pantheon level player, and is only not seen as such because of the diminishing of his ABA accomplishments by biased basketball historians.


Please see the above post.
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Old 05-15-2010, 08:33 PM   #33
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Default Re: The supporting casts of the all time greats...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LBJFTW
How could you leave out the greatest example of team support of all time?

2004 Detroit Pistons, where Billups, Hamilton, R. Wallace, B. Wallace, and Prince all supported each other, no man contributing more so than the next. It doesn't get any greater than that. 5 guys supporting 5 guys. Not 3 supporting 2 or 4 supporting 1.


I agree.

I would put the 2008 Celtics in the same category.

I left the 2004 PIstons off because I wanted to talk about how important the supporting cast is to any single great player winning a championship. The 2004 Pistons and 2008 Celtics don't have a "single great player" who overshadows the team. So they were left off the list.


There is this myth that 1 player wins a title. That is simply not true. Over the last 30 years, the all time great players who won championships were all supported by outstanding teams.


In fact having looked this thread over, it seems like only D-Wade and Hakeem truly "carried" a team to a championship. Every other situation involves a star player who is the best player on a team filled with other talented players.


Looking at some of the champoinship teams from 1980 foward, there are at least 3 teams (Lakers 1980s, Sixers 1983, Lakers 2000s) where there is a debate as to who the best player on the team even is! And as a Celtic fan I can tell you that McHale was a lot more than just a "supporting cast member" for Bird.

Teams win championships. And the 2004 Pistons prove that. Players like Dirk, Lebron and Camelo can't win rings without substantial help.
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Old 05-15-2010, 08:52 PM   #34
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Default Re: The supporting casts of the all time greats...

2004 Pistons destroyed Kobe's chance of being in Jordan's league.

Jordan's Bulls wouldn't have lost to a team that had no shoe-in HOFers like the 2004 Pistons.

Billups, Rip, Sheed and Ben Wallace...not one of them are first-fifth ballot HOFers...I know Rip was good in UConn and Sheed was good at UNC but I not sure if any of them go in.
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Old 05-15-2010, 08:57 PM   #35
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Default Re: The supporting casts of the all time greats...

Where are the Back to Back 1989-90 NBA Champion Detroit Pistons? Isiah Thomas is an All-Time Great and he and his supporting cast should have definitely been included.
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Old 05-15-2010, 09:14 PM   #36
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Default Re: The supporting casts of the all time greats...

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Originally Posted by Wukillabeez78
Where are the Back to Back 1989-90 NBA Champion Detroit Pistons? Isiah Thomas is an All-Time Great and he and his supporting cast should have definitely been included.


I never considered Isiah Thomas an all time great. I would argue that his back-mate Joe Dumars might have been as good as Thomas when the Pistons won their back to back champoinships. He certainly was better defensively.

The Pistons of 1989-1990 in my view were very much like the 2004 Pistons team. They have no all time great player, but they are a collection of very good and talented players that make up a great team.


This Piston team 1988-1990 is really underrated.

Everyone regards Bird's Celtics, Magic's Lakers, and Jordan's Bulls among the truly greatest teams of all time. But the Pistons are the only team in NBA history to face and defeat each of those teams before father time killed them off.

They beat Bird's Celtics in the 1988 ECF
They beat Magic's Lakers in the 1989 NBA Finals (Magic was injured but the Lakers weren't winning that series and they knew it)
They beat Jordan's Bulls in the 1989 and 1990 ECF.


Jordan's Bulls couldn't win a title until the Pistons got old. Twice, Michael Jordan at the height of his powers with Scotty Pippen still lost to the Pistons in the ECF.


As a Celtics fan I hated this team, but I must give credit where credit is due.

Here's the lineup of this all time great NBA team

F-Rick Mahorn
F-Mark Aguire
C-Bill Laimbeer
G-Joe Dumars
G-Isiah Thomas

Key Bench players-Vinny Johnson, Dennis Rodman, John Salley, James Edwards.


This is perhaps the greatest defensive team in NBA history. If we call Isiah Thomas the star, this is a very impressive supporting cast.


I can't believe I did that off the top of my head. That was a long time ago!
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Old 05-15-2010, 09:17 PM   #37
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^^^Oh, yeah! the original Bad Boys.

Dumars, Rodman, Laimbeer, Mahorn.
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Old 05-15-2010, 09:19 PM   #38
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Default Re: The supporting casts of the all time greats...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wukillabeez78
Where are the Back to Back 1989-90 NBA Champion Detroit Pistons? Isiah Thomas is an All-Time Great and he and his supporting cast should have definitely been included.
true. the fact is that all championship teams have 2 great players and 2 or 3 good players. some players may be more accomplished but not never all at once.
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Old 05-15-2010, 09:21 PM   #39
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Default Re: The supporting casts of the all time greats...

Quote:
Originally Posted by t-rex
I never considered Isiah Thomas an all time great. I would argue that his back-mate Joe Dumars might have been as good as Thomas when the Pistons won their back to back champoinships. He certainly was better defensively.

The Pistons of 1989-1990 in my view were very much like the 2004 Pistons team. They have no all time great player, but they are a collection of very good and talented players that make up a great team.


This Piston team 1988-1990 is really underrated.

Everyone regards Bird's Celtics, Magic's Lakers, and Jordan's Bulls among the truly greatest teams of all time. But the Pistons are the only team in NBA history to face and defeat each of those teams before father time killed them off.

They beat Bird's Celtics in the 1988 ECF
They beat Magic's Lakers in the 1989 NBA Finals (Magic was injured but the Lakers weren't winning that series and they knew it)
They beat Jordan's Bulls in the 1989 and 1990 ECF.


Jordan's Bulls couldn't win a title until the Pistons got old. Twice, Michael Jordan at the height of his powers with Scotty Pippen still lost to the Pistons in the ECF.


As a Celtics fan I hated this team, but I must give credit where credit is due.

Here's the lineup of this all time great NBA team

F-Rick Mahorn
F-Mark Aguire
C-Bill Laimbeer
G-Joe Dumars
G-Isiah Thomas

Key Bench players-Vinny Johnson, Dennis Rodman, John Salley, James Edwards.


This is perhaps the greatest defensive team in NBA history. If we call Isiah Thomas the star, this is a very impressive supporting cast.


I can't believe I did that off the top of my head. That was a long time ago!
but everybody knows that jordans supporting players were green and not yet ready.
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Old 05-15-2010, 09:23 PM   #40
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Default Re: The supporting casts of the all time greats...

I like how Shaq isn't considered an all time great.
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Old 05-15-2010, 09:24 PM   #41
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Default Re: The supporting casts of the all time greats...

2001 (iverson and sixers)- mutumbo and.....
1994 (ewing and knicks)- starks, mason, and oakley
1999 (knicks)- injured ewing, houston, spree, ward, camby, L.J, and childs
2011 (lebron and knicks)- wade, lee, ?
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Old 05-15-2010, 09:28 PM   #42
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Default Re: The supporting casts of the all time greats...

Why no bench guys?

Most teams that win have some significant contributions by 2-3 bench guys, and there are important players missing by only going by starting lineups. Also, often the 2-3 best bench guys will be in the starting lineup at one point or another.

I think it makes the list insignificant. For example:

Last year the Lakers had 7 different starting lineups for the season, and given the criteria of your list a guy like Lamar Odom is left out of the supporting cast, which shouldn't be the case.
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Old 05-15-2010, 09:38 PM   #43
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Default Re: The supporting casts of the all time greats...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenMaster
Why no bench guys?

Most teams that win have some significant contributions by 2-3 bench guys, and there are important players missing by only going by starting lineups. Also, often the 2-3 best bench guys will be in the starting lineup at one point or another.

I think it makes the list insignificant. For example:

Last year the Lakers had 7 different starting lineups for the season, and given the criteria of your list a guy like Lamar Odom is left out of the supporting cast, which shouldn't be the case.


I agree with a lot of what you said.

Bobby Jones came off the bench for the 1983 Sixers

Kevin Mchale came off the bench for the 84 Celtics

Bill Walton was the 6th man of the year for the 86 Celtics

Vinny "The Microwave" Johnson may have been the Pistons best offensive player. He came off the bench for the Pistons in 89 and 90.

John Paxon's clutch outside shooing off the bench iced away two NBA Finals for Jordan and the Bulls in 91 and 93.


Bench players are very important. But that only solidifies my point. No great player wins a title alone. The criticism players like Dirk and Lebron recieve is unfair. They don't have the supporting cast to win a champoinship.
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Old 05-15-2010, 09:42 PM   #44
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Default Re: The supporting casts of the all time greats...

Quote:
Originally Posted by t-rex
The criticism players like Dirk and Lebron recieve is unfair. They don't have the supporting cast to win a champoinship.
The criticism of Dirk is fair. He has had supporting casts that would make most franchise players envious.
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Old 05-15-2010, 09:53 PM   #45
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Default Re: The supporting casts of the all time greats...

Quote:
Originally Posted by t-rex
Everyone regards Bird's Celtics, Magic's Lakers, and Jordan's Bulls among the truly greatest teams of all time. But the Pistons are the only team in NBA history to face and defeat each of those teams before father time killed them off.

They beat Bird's Celtics in the 1988 ECF
They beat Magic's Lakers in the 1989 NBA Finals (Magic was injured but the Lakers weren't winning that series and they knew it)
They beat Jordan's Bulls in the 1989 and 1990 ECF.

Jordan's Bulls couldn't win a title until the Pistons got old. Twice, Michael Jordan at the height of his powers with Scotty Pippen still lost to the Pistons in the ECF.

I'm a little confused by your post. You claim that the Bulls only won the championship in 1991 because the Pistons were too old, but you also think that the Pistons title in 89 is more legit despite beating up on a Lakers team that missed Byron Scott for the whole series and Magic for half of it, with only James Worthy and a 41 year old Kareem to carry them? Also, the 88 Celtic's were actually pretty close in age to the 1991 Pistons. DJ, Bird, McHale and Parish were all in their 30s while Thomas, Rodman and Dumars were all in their late 20s when the Bulls finally beat them to advance to the Finals.

Excellent thread, though, I enjoy reading these comparisons.

Last edited by Alhazred : 05-15-2010 at 10:04 PM.
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