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Old 05-21-2010, 07:11 PM   #16
wang4three
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Default Re: So I was wrong..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nets fan 93
I know you follow CB... What are your opinions on cousins?... he looks promising in videos. and his stats are very nice for the mins he played. Or is Favors simply better because Cousins is said to be "raw"

Favors is much raw-er than Cousins at this point may end up to be the better pro. He's an absolute phenomenal rebounder (goes after literally every rebound within his enormous wingspan), he's got tremendous hands, great touch around the basket, and more established post moves. Yeah, I'd he's better than Favors as a big man. He reminds me of a pre-jump shooting version of Zach Randolph and for the reason that he has head issues. He comes with a LOT of baggage. His knucklehead tendenies are well documented and it maybe the reason why he never turns elite big like he can be. He can be disruptive, whiny, and I expect him to pick up techinicals like his name was Rasheed Wallace or Kenyon Martin.

Now this doesn't mean that that Favors doesn't have anything of his own. I think the college game really hurt him. For one thing he played on a team without any passers, atleast Cousins could claim guys like Wall, Bledsoe, Liggins, or even Patrick Patterson who turned out to be a decent post feeder, to get him the ball. Favors hardly had anyone to feed him the ball and Georgia Tech played in a manner that led to tons of turnovers, sloppy play, and back and forth. It's hard to think that a team led by freshman like Kentucky played more structurally sound than GTech, but that's what happened. Also I think because Favors doesn't have go-to moves like DeMarcus does it hurt him in picking up 3 or 5 second calls. He also had a tendency to travel. The zones screwed him up cause he'd get collapsed on and he's not a good passer at this point. Not to mention that Tech was poor at spacing to begin with and didn't have much in the 3pt shooting department.

But the thing about Favors is that when he gets to the NBA or the Nets he won't have to deal with a lot of those issues. 5 second calls? Gone. Lots and lots of zones? Gone. Being the main post player? Gone. Travels? Not gone, but maybe called slightly less- the NBA may let him get away with that feet shuffle he does before he gets into his moves. More importantly, he'll be allowed to be the 3rd or 4th option on the floor. Maybe even 5th depending on who we get in the offseason. This will be good for him to start his career cause he'll have a ton of chances at getting easy buckets. He'll be able to be a power player that makes his living off of offensive put backs, dunks, and transition buckets. If we can transition back to our running game, he'd be the perfect addition, even more than Cousins. He can then start spreading out his game by getting consistency on a baseline or elbow jumper, while also working on power moves towards the rim. I'd lying to you if I wasn't excited for a power/finesse frontcourt of Brook/Favors.

I'll go with Favors for all that and the lack of baggage. After what happened with Sean Williams I just don't think we'll be taking risks like that again especially with a higher pick.
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Old 05-21-2010, 07:17 PM   #17
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Default Re: So I was wrong..

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Originally Posted by gigantes
okay, i'm working on a couple bottles of sam adams summer ale, so maybe i'm not at my sharpest right now.

BUT...

why was simmons any better than the equivalent in players and salaries that would expire at different times? IMO he wound up hurting nets flexibility for the time he was here, because after all, if that money could have been put into different avenues, say by picking up a couple inexpensive FA prospects, then millions could have been saved (reducing the franchise's past debt, making the team that much more attractive to any new buyer) AND development-wise the nets might have something to show other than simmons, a true professional, but a guy who seems to work hard every summer yet somehow keeps getting more one-dimensional every year.

I think we can say yeah, that could've been the better avenue to take, but how plausible would it be? Was a said contract even available to the Nets at the time? I mean the only big cap removing trades I remember from last season was Iverson for Billups. Do you think the Nuggets would've traded us Iverson for Richard, especially with Melo there? I don't think so. I think management effectively weighed their options with the RJ trade and this was the best we came up with. Yeah we were stifled for 2 years with Bobby's contract but it could've been just a matter of that nothing better was available. Thinking about it, everyone and their mother is a free agent this year, how many contracts really expired last season?

Quote:
and as for the value of that $11 million expirer- i admit that it's an asset in theory, but i'd like to see what actually happens with it before i consider it to have real value.

that is, unless yi takes another significant step forward this year and/or the simmons contract actually turns into something, i'm still skeptical on the RJ trade.

Fair enough. Here's to hoping we snag somebody good.

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but, heck... maybe i'm just being another impatient douchebag fan. i'm certainly willing to be proven wrong on this...

I think we all are rightfully impatient.
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Old 05-22-2010, 01:34 PM   #18
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Default Re: So I was wrong..

Quote:
Originally Posted by wang4three
Favors is much raw-er than Cousins at this point may end up to be the better pro. He's an absolute phenomenal rebounder (goes after literally every rebound within his enormous wingspan), he's got tremendous hands, great touch around the basket, and more established post moves. Yeah, I'd he's better than Favors as a big man. He reminds me of a pre-jump shooting version of Zach Randolph and for the reason that he has head issues. He comes with a LOT of baggage. His knucklehead tendenies are well documented and it maybe the reason why he never turns elite big like he can be. He can be disruptive, whiny, and I expect him to pick up techinicals like his name was Rasheed Wallace or Kenyon Martin.

Now this doesn't mean that that Favors doesn't have anything of his own. I think the college game really hurt him. For one thing he played on a team without any passers, atleast Cousins could claim guys like Wall, Bledsoe, Liggins, or even Patrick Patterson who turned out to be a decent post feeder, to get him the ball. Favors hardly had anyone to feed him the ball and Georgia Tech played in a manner that led to tons of turnovers, sloppy play, and back and forth. It's hard to think that a team led by freshman like Kentucky played more structurally sound than GTech, but that's what happened. Also I think because Favors doesn't have go-to moves like DeMarcus does it hurt him in picking up 3 or 5 second calls. He also had a tendency to travel. The zones screwed him up cause he'd get collapsed on and he's not a good passer at this point. Not to mention that Tech was poor at spacing to begin with and didn't have much in the 3pt shooting department.

But the thing about Favors is that when he gets to the NBA or the Nets he won't have to deal with a lot of those issues. 5 second calls? Gone. Lots and lots of zones? Gone. Being the main post player? Gone. Travels? Not gone, but maybe called slightly less- the NBA may let him get away with that feet shuffle he does before he gets into his moves. More importantly, he'll be allowed to be the 3rd or 4th option on the floor. Maybe even 5th depending on who we get in the offseason. This will be good for him to start his career cause he'll have a ton of chances at getting easy buckets. He'll be able to be a power player that makes his living off of offensive put backs, dunks, and transition buckets. If we can transition back to our running game, he'd be the perfect addition, even more than Cousins. He can then start spreading out his game by getting consistency on a baseline or elbow jumper, while also working on power moves towards the rim. I'd lying to you if I wasn't excited for a power/finesse frontcourt of Brook/Favors.

I'll go with Favors for all that and the lack of baggage. After what happened with Sean Williams I just don't think we'll be taking risks like that again especially with a higher pick.
Would you really compare Cousins to Williams...? He seems cocky in some vids that i saw but not a person with anger issues...I like the production he gives in the amount of time he plays... Favors seems like a mystery to me
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Old 05-22-2010, 03:05 PM   #19
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Default Re: So I was wrong..

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Originally Posted by Nets fan 93
Would you really compare Cousins to Williams...? He seems cocky in some vids that i saw but not a person with anger issues...I like the production he gives in the amount of time he plays... Favors seems like a mystery to me

I'm just saying the last headcase we took our chances on was a dud so it may affect how we do it here. Luckily it wasn't a lottery pick we screwed up on, let alone a top 3 pick. I like Favors a lot, I think he'd fill the void at the 4 as well as bringing two things we lacked last year: aggression and rebounding as well as adding athleticism and power.

Cousins playing the 4 spot would force Brook to be pushed out of the paint. It's exactly what happened to Patrick Patterson at Kentucky since like Brook, he had a more sound mid range jumper. I'm not sure I like Brook becoming more perimeter orientated since he has some pretty good back to the basket moves. However, if they were to work out a twin towers scenario where Cousins and Brook could co-exist, it may be one of the most formidable front courts in history.
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Old 05-22-2010, 06:26 PM   #20
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Default Re: So I was wrong..

A real coach will be able to work out an offense where Brook and DeMarcus could coexist. I would rather have two big men who defenses have to respect than one. We could be looking at a 40 ppg duo at the 4 and 5 spots.

DeMarcus should also get showcase his nice first step/dribble drive ability that he did not utilize much on the college level.

DeMarcus is also just as good a rebounder, if not a better rebounder than Favors. He is an attack dog on the boards.
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Old 05-23-2010, 02:53 AM   #21
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Default Re: So I was wrong..

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Originally Posted by wang4three
I'm just saying the last headcase we took our chances on was a dud so it may affect how we do it here. Luckily it wasn't a lottery pick we screwed up on, let alone a top 3 pick. I like Favors a lot, I think he'd fill the void at the 4 as well as bringing two things we lacked last year: aggression and rebounding as well as adding athleticism and power.

Cousins playing the 4 spot would force Brook to be pushed out of the paint. It's exactly what happened to Patrick Patterson at Kentucky since like Brook, he had a more sound mid range jumper. I'm not sure I like Brook becoming more perimeter orientated since he has some pretty good back to the basket moves. However, if they were to work out a twin towers scenario where Cousins and Brook could co-exist, it may be one of the most formidable front courts in history.
Hmm.. Okay, thanks for responding.
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Old 05-23-2010, 03:52 PM   #22
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Default Re: So I was wrong..

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Originally Posted by Dasher
A real coach will be able to work out an offense where Brook and DeMarcus could coexist. I would rather have two big men who defenses have to respect than one. We could be looking at a 40 ppg duo at the 4 and 5 spots.

DeMarcus should also get showcase his nice first step/dribble drive ability that he did not utilize much on the college level.

DeMarcus is also just as good a rebounder, if not a better rebounder than Favors. He is an attack dog on the boards.

That's fair and nice, but there's so many mounting issues with Cousins, would you still take him over Favors who seems to be the anti-Cousin in mental issues. Cousins seems to have motivational and work ethic issues. He's has what, 15% body fat? A history of attitude problems? While Favors can match Cousin's aggressiveness without attitude or motivational issues? I don't know. I'm not much of a gambler so I always err on the side of caution. I was against the Sean Williams pick (though I was arguing for Josh McRoberts, but still), and am pretty much the same side here.

No need to explain to me that Cousins is the more polished/upside player, I know that, but do you risk it still knowing that it's much easier to develop a player's skill than his mental issues?
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Old 05-23-2010, 04:03 PM   #23
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The league is full of nice guys with nice physical tools,but no game. Favors has mental issues as well. He is too passive. I can not respect a player who acquiesced to Gani Lawal. Cousins went on the court expecting to dominate, Patrick Patterson SEC Player of the Year be damned. He also carried that team when the others were struggling. Brook and Derrick would give us a front court of two nice guys. Nice guys only win in the NBA regular season. So he chews out refs? Big deal, so does super "nice" guy Tim Duncan.
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Old 05-23-2010, 05:48 PM   #24
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There's a difference between being aggressive and just being a malcontent. Cousins comes off as a very "always be getting mine" attitude that I've seen from other talented, but less than successful players. Zach Randolph. Al Jefferson. Shareef Abdur-Rahim. Elton Brand. The guys that always finishes the game with 20/10 2blocks on 55% FG but doesn't necessarily translates to wins.

I really think you overstate Favors' "passiveness". Yeah, he could've demanded the ball more, but at the same time no one could get him the ball either. He is pretty aggressive from what I've seen and I think you misinterpret deferring to a senior leader as "passiveness" when I see it as understanding his role.

I'd very much prefer, whether it'd be Cousins or Favors, to come in and understand thier parts before start demanding things to happen. I rather see the two of them defer to Brook in the post. If you prefer Cousins to come in and basically make Brook a jump shooter then, fine, you must have a lot of expectations of Cousins. At the end of the day, I don't really see Cousins becoming more than any of the guys I mentioned already.
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Old 05-23-2010, 07:14 PM   #25
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Default Re: So I was wrong..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE9yObPb1xA

In that mix it doesnt look like Cousins is hogging up the post a lot.... Wall was giving him good looks. Maybe the coaching could actually find a way for Lopez and Cousins to co-exist
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Old 05-23-2010, 07:37 PM   #26
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Default Re: So I was wrong..

90% of that video were clips of transition bucket..and for a guy that played 36 or so games, that's really not a lot.

I mean, I'm not anti-Cousins. If I had to choose, I'd go with Favors. Better fit for our team, we can just focus on his game, and not have to worry about other things. Lets be honest here, there are A LOT of problems with our team and we don't need to add an unnecessary problem if we don't have to.
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Old 05-24-2010, 02:33 AM   #27
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Default Re: So I was wrong..

granted that i know crap about demarcus cousins, but after reading this:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...ate/index.html

...a warning light has begun flashing in my central cortex. maybe even several.

i.e., cousins just might, possibly be that immature kind of highly-gifted player who's gotten hooked on hearing how god-like he is at every stop of his winding road to the NBA. i.e., the guy who crashes and burns with his first team, pouts like a primma donna, forces a trade or a release, then goes through this cycle a few more times with other teams until he eventually realises that the problem is sort-of, kind-of, somehow related to himself in some sort of mysterious, inexplicable way. causing him to reluctantly begin applying himself at the professional level, creating a chain of quite random coincidences that lead to him becoming a good, or even very good, NBA player. maybe even a star.

the problem is, this situation rarely if ever benefits the drafting team very much (if at all). not to mention, it wastes years of the team's time and energy and creates untold headaches for management.

therefore -- and i wish that more people would agree with this concept, dammit -- sometimes it's categorically useless for a team to draft a player, no matter how big of a star he may one day become. with some future team.

...

but bringing this back full circle, let me again i say that i know crap about mister cousins and mister favors. in addition to one article by mister francis hughes, esquire, of course!
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Old 05-24-2010, 08:45 PM   #28
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Default Re: So I was wrong..

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Originally Posted by wang4three
90% of that video were clips of transition bucket..and for a guy that played 36 or so games, that's really not a lot.

I mean, I'm not anti-Cousins. If I had to choose, I'd go with Favors. Better fit for our team, we can just focus on his game, and not have to worry about other things. Lets be honest here, there are A LOT of problems with our team and we don't need to add an unnecessary problem if we don't have to.
True. Favors looks like he can be promising.
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Old 05-25-2010, 12:24 PM   #29
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I dont want cousins on my team. Unless he proves me wrong. Too many questions, not enough answers. Favors is more humble, and has the work ethic and talent. Sure it might take him an extra year or so to be at the level we want him at but he'll get there, he's too good not to.

Here's an idea: have the nets play scrimmages and have cousins and favors both play alongside Brook in different games and see who's the better fit.
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Old 05-26-2010, 04:58 AM   #30
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Default Re: So I was wrong..

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Originally Posted by JerzeyBlaze
I dont want cousins on my team. Unless he proves me wrong. Too many questions, not enough answers. Favors is more humble, and has the work ethic and talent. Sure it might take him an extra year or so to be at the level we want him at but he'll get there, he's too good not to.

Here's an idea: have the nets play scrimmages and have cousins and favors both play alongside Brook in different games and see who's the better fit.

haha, i think they should consider this.

but all isn't lost guys, washington doesn't know who they're picking 1st and sixers are open to trading. so many things can happen with prokhorov giving rod thorn free reign to make the team better. i wonder if he'll allow trading for arenas or brand's contract and then buying them out... i feel as if wizards or sixers would love that.
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