Instead of comparing the Lebrons and Kobes to the Birds and Jordans...
Lets take a moment to credit some of the lesser guys who probably have aspects of their games just as deserving of such praise.
I read weekly about Lebron being a passer like Bird or Magic....ill sit aside for now my feelings on that...and instead ask....
If Lebron "only" had Toni Kukocs passing ability....is he still Lebron? Id have to say yes. With Tonis ability and his athletic gifts....hes still the same guy. Take offense if you must but really....ive seen Kukoc dropping 50 foot behind theb ack passes right on the money on the move. Ive seen him do fakes Magic Johnson would be proud of and slip a ball into traffic like a wizard. Not being given the ball to make plays 40 minutes a night(even when Jordan and Pippen were gone) doesnt take away his actual passing ability. Same with Manu. Manu to me justifies comparison to Larry Bird as a passer as much as Lebron does. Especially in cleverness and...number of people who would ever think to pull some of the passes out of their asses that they do.
Hell im not sure Lebron with Drexlers passing is a different guy. Im just talking the ability to get a ball where it needs to be and even considering a bit of flair. Im sure the numbers crunchers might have an issue but really....at one point he put up 10, 8, 9 and 10 assists a game over 4 months. In 92 he averaged 7, 7.8, 6, and 7.4 over 4 months. Ask him to makep lays he made them. But he was never put in the position Lebron has been partly due to being on teams with weak points who will watch him run the show. In truth im not sure that a 6'8'' 260+ pound crazy(ier) athlete Brent Barry isnt looking a lot like Lebron as a playmaker. But its seen as an insult because to put the names together implies....something...I guess...to people who I suspect didnt really watch the guy.
If Kobe "only" had Isiah Riders ability to square up and go by you to make a shot in the lane....hes still Kobe. Kobe with Isiahs attacking and the rest of his game...the shot...the defense...hes still pretty much Kobe.
Jordan was an absurd midrange shooter....largely because of his ability to make contested shots. Similar to Kobe and Bird.
But....im not sure the most reliable maker of an open jumper ive ever seen isnt Chris Mullin or Jerry Sichting(something like that). Guys just did not miss. Them missing a half open 18 footer is...an event.
But once a comparison must be made we always go to the very very top. Cant compare Lebron to Kukoc as a passer. Or Kobe to JR as an attacker. Seen as an insult....but I dont believe it should.
Afterall...if Magic "only" had Mark Jacksons passing...hes still pretty damn similar to what he was. Not exactly. But he doesnt go from top 5 to top 20.
Hakeems post game was disgusting. But if you watch Rony Seikaly in his prime you would be disgusted quite a bit as well.
So...who are some of the lesser players you feel justify comparison to some of these legends if only in one or two aspects?
Im not 100% sure that Lebron with Antione Walkers passing ability isnt still...pretty much the same guy. But im sure if I made a topic saying so people would get bent out of shape. But **** em.
Annoy a fan or two. Which players from the lower classes are you prepared to compare to the elites in some of the categories that make those legends who they are?
Last edited by Kblaze8855 : 02-21-2013 at 06:34 AM.
Re: Instead of comparing the Lebrons and Kobes to the Birds and Jordans...
Ray Allen is always automatically associated with Reggie Miller; no questions asked, that's it. When to me his prime game was more similar to Mitch Richmond's. Mitch and Ray were better ball handlers than Reggie, and Iso'ed more often.
Apparently Reggie Miller was the only player to ever use screens to get open for jumpers or pullup for 3's on fastbreaks
Re: Instead of comparing the Lebrons and Kobes to the Birds and Jordans...
I have noticed that Reggie is the only guy who gets brought up in off the ball scoring comparisons. Well Rip too now that hes old and people kinda forget he still exists...but to me...the top scorer far as using off the ball movement to get a good look...at least of the last 15 years...
Allen Iverson. Hes known as a one on one break you down and score guy...because he was...but AI was a monster off the ball. Guy was like 5'11'' and would run all game wearing his man out and finding his way through traffic like a mouse. Hes doing 2 full laps then emerging on the baseline out of a crevice behind Derrick Coleman all day. Reggie for his career made 6 shots a game. Least 1 or two were off open looks in transition. He really might just eat you up off the ball and lose you for a score twice a night. Allen Iverson did it probably once a quarter. Reggie moved off the ball partly to space the floor and get others like Smits looks...but bottom line...I doubt he scored off the ball as often as Allen Iverson who as time goes by is being more and more known as some ball stopping dribbler with all his teammates hating him.
Just not the guy I remember.
Oh and people who remember prime Darrell Armstrong.....who would you compare him to today? I have someone I think is obvious but id like to know if someone else thinks of it. Dude is never going to be compared to Armstrong....but in truth I see more of Darrell in him than anyone else even if he is a tier or three above him as a player.
Re: Instead of comparing the Lebrons and Kobes to the Birds and Jordans...
Well god damn Kblaze, i usually agree with you in everything about basketball.... but these Drexler / Kukoc / Antoine Walker passing = Lebrons passing opinions?
Considering your bball knowledge I know you cant possibly truly feel that way, come on K!
Toni Kukoc who i think had better passing skills than Drexler (Drexlers APG was more of a result of unselfishness) didnt had that vision/passing skills/PG skills.... and not only do i have all the respect in the world for a fellow country man, but i have seen most of his games... he was not in Lebrons league in that department.... Yes, he (like anybody else) probably had some nice passes in his highlights, but he was NOT able to do that to Lebrons efficiency or magnitude, neither did he possess such snap in his passes or complete many of even more sick passes Lebron was able to create routinely, Lebron could thread the needle like nobody elses business (from non-PGs).... hint: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-zhe-5ORA
You want to know the biggest difference between Kukoc/Antoine Walker/Harold Miner/Shaq/Manute Bol/Muresan and Lebrons passing ability? Lebron could DOMINATE the game with his passing........ he could instantly create offense for his teammates with his passing skills alone anytime he wanted to, his passes are extremly accurate, fast and because he has even greater vision and bball IQ than the likes of Kukoc he can see plays develope before hand and hit his teammate before that teammate even knew he was open sometimes........ then he was also much more mobile with his ballhandling & athleticism, which allows Lebron to survey the floor and find even more passing angles..... and was also therefore able to use those passing skills better in transition........ When speaking of assists then in absence of less scoring Lebron if he wanted to could average 10 apg, easily...
At around Lebrons / Birds length and over... nobody but Magic Johnson had better vision/passing skills and thats only because Magic was the most ridicilous passer in NBA history, you wont see anything like that... ever.....
Best passing ability as non-PGs belongs to Lebron/Bird and then after a GAP its everybody else.... Lebron vs Bird in terms of passing is a better discussion, its kindof a mute point, whoever you prefer... but its safe to say those two possessed the best passing/vision as non-PGs... the most important difference between them and every non-PG else is that they were able to decimate offenses with their passing better than any non-PG... Yes, Bird/Lebron were put in those situations to do so.... but if somebody like Kukoc was really able to wreak the same havoc with his passing that same way then he would probably get more playing time, not to mention even start for that Bulls team....
Re: Instead of comparing the Lebrons and Kobes to the Birds and Jordans...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Im not 100% sure that Lebron with Antione Walkers passing ability isnt still...pretty much the same guy. But im sure if I made a topic saying so people would get bent out of shape. But **** em.
This one interested me a lot because I think you're dead right. People often get caught up in defining passing ability with decision making. Walker's ability to pass could be every bit as good as Lebron's but Walker never had any qualms about making whatever pass he saw despite the likelihood of success (this I think pretty much defined Walker's entire career actually). To go back to your other points about Lebron's passing ability and others, I never quite saw the same creativity in the way Drexler passed but I definitely saw in Kukoc.
Re: Instead of comparing the Lebrons and Kobes to the Birds and Jordans...
Lebron doesnt dominate a game with his passing because of his passing ability. He can dominate a game with his passing because of his scoring ability. I dont feel like that needs to be explained but....im often letdown when I think something is too obvious to need explaining....so...
Lebron is a great passer. The reason he can make so many more plays than the many people who can pass as well is that unlike most of them...he could probably score 35ppg if he decided to and it changes how he and his teammates are defended.
Lebron isnt doing anything I find more impressive than some of Antione Walkers passes in the 90s. He had some in 98 that had me ready to support a Pippen for Toine trade. I might see if I can find the one in the 98 ASG....
Antione not being Karl Malones size with Russell Westbrooks athletic ability doesnt make him a worse passer. It helps make him a worse playmaker/shot creator. But they arent the same thing.
A guy like Sabonis will never rack up assists because his mobility didnt put him in position to roam the floor and make plays. So most of his great passes are from theh igh or low post. Doesnt make him a worse passer than every guard who can get more varied. It just isnt that simple.
Ive seen Kukoc, Drexler, and Toine make passes ive not seen from Lebron. Ive seen him do things ive not seen from them. Ive seen none of them do anything to just put one a mile ahead of the others.
Far as Drexlers assists being due to unselfishness....when Lebron blows by a guy and has a lane but instead dumps it off to a teammate left open by the rotating help defense who isnt even in position to stop Lebron....whats that?
If Lebron just took the shots he could make hed score 32-33 a game right now. His assists are because he wants assists. Which is fine. But lets not call it something else.
Manu, Brent Barry, Kukoc, and a few others....given Lebrons physical talents? They are dropping dimes all day. They did enough of it as role players to make that clear to me. And passing isnt scoring where you need to do it to prove you can. Thats just....assists. They proved they had the passing ability. Just not the rest of Lebron that gives him the ability and blessing to go do whatever he wants. Tell Manu to run wild with nothing but shooters and finishers around him hes gonna put on a show.
Hes done it just enough that I dont feel that can even be questioned. Some of the others have not....but again...passing and being given playmaking duties due to overall ability...not the same thing.
Lebron is no better a flat out passer than TJ Ford was on the Bucks. Which is crazy for a guy his size. But we dont need to jump to the Magics and Birds to find comparisons.
Shit Penny Hardaway in 1994 form in the wide open guards first leauge we have now would be on 3 top 10s a night and 2 would be midair no look passes.
Lot more guys on that level than get credit for it.
Re: Instead of comparing the Lebrons and Kobes to the Birds and Jordans...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Lebron doesnt dominate a game with his passing because of his passing ability. He can dominate a game with his passing because of his scoring ability. I dont feel like that needs to be explained but....im often letdown when I think something is too obvious to need explaining....so...
Lebron is a great passer. The reason he can make so many more plays than the many people who can pass as well is that unlike most of them...he could probably score 35ppg if he decided to and it changes how he and his teammates are defended.
Lebron isnt doing anything I find more impressive than some of Antione Walkers passes in the 90s. He had some in 98 that had me ready to support a Pippen for Toine trade. I might see if I can find the one in the 98 ASG....
Antione not being Karl Malones size with Russell Westbrooks athletic ability doesnt make him a worse passer. It helps make him a worse playmaker/shot creator. But they arent the same thing.
A guy like Sabonis will never rack up assists because his mobility didnt put him in position to roam the floor and make plays. So most of his great passes are from theh igh or low post. Doesnt make him a worse passer than every guard who can get more varied. It just isnt that simple.
Ive seen Kukoc, Drexler, and Toine make passes ive not seen from Lebron. Ive seen him do things ive not seen from them. Ive seen none of them do anything to just put one a mile ahead of the others.
Far as Drexlers assists being due to unselfishness....when Lebron blows by a guy and has a lane but instead dumps it off to a teammate left open by the rotating help defense who isnt even in position to stop Lebron....whats that?
If Lebron just took the shots he could make hed score 32-33 a game right now. His assists are because he wants assists. Which is fine. But lets not call it something else.
Manu, Brent Barry, Kukoc, and a few others....given Lebrons physical talents? They are dropping dimes all day. They did enough of it as role players to make that clear to me. And passing isnt scoring where you need to do it to prove you can. Thats just....assists. They proved they had the passing ability. Just not the rest of Lebron that gives him the ability and blessing to go do whatever he wants. Tell Manu to run wild with nothing but shooters and finishers around him hes gonna put on a show.
Hes done it just enough that I dont feel that can even be questioned. Some of the others have not....but again...passing and being given playmaking duties due to overall ability...not the same thing.
Lebron is no better a flat out passer than TJ Ford was on the Bucks. Which is crazy for a guy his size. But we dont need to jump to the Magics and Birds to find comparisons.
Shit Penny Hardaway in 1994 form in the wide open guards first leauge we have now would be on 3 top 10s a night and 2 would be midair no look passes.
Lot more guys on that level than get credit for it.
I agree with all of this, but Pauk is going to have a stroke
Re: Instead of comparing the Lebrons and Kobes to the Birds and Jordans...
Quote:
Originally Posted by CavaliersFTW
I agree with all of this, but Pauk is going to have a stroke
I'm expecting 2500 this time.
But seriously.. LeBron passing skill, shooting skill, and overall offensive skill is slightly above average. It's his decision making and athelleticism that make him unstoppable. He's got the total package.. Everything integrated together with his physical talents that allow him to dominate. At any single basketball skill he's overrated.
LOL at LeBron dominating a game with his passing.. LeBron is not a facilitator. He doesn't encourage other guys games to get going by feeding them in favorable positions. He sure as hell won't take a hockey assist. He monopolized the ball and hits the open 3 point shooter off the help or Chris bosh for a midrange shot. And it works because he knows when to shoot and when to pass. Decision making is on point. Skill is heavily overrated though.
Re: Instead of comparing the Lebrons and Kobes to the Birds and Jordans...
Lebron's passes across court a lot more because he has more zest on his passes than Antoine? You do address that with the physical ability part. But Lebron's timing is also better than Antoine Walker's as well. He has some great alley oops to Wade and that's not attributable in the physical ability department. I'm not so sure that Kukoc and Gin hit people in the shooting position as well as Lebron either. Given more power they would be even more off the mark?
Quote:
If Lebron just took the shots he could make hed score 32-33 a game right now. His assists are because he wants assists. Which is fine. But lets not call it something else.
I don't understand? Is it more complicated than its an option that he created or exercised? Wasn't Lebron getting more assist in Clevelend when he didn't have consistent shooters? <--- that in regard to the statement that Gin would go crazy with shooters.
Manu is a bit wild and I'm not sure if he's collective enough to run the point. If Manu doesn't get wild it's hard for him to get space. Kukoc wasn't aggressive enough and thought slower than he played. The NBA chess match of the 90's was a little too fast for him - now its even quicker. Brent Barry??? To create for others and getting other people involved isn't a physical thing. A point guard also has to think of who is supposed to get off next and how to slant the court toward him so that Varejoan can get off to stay inspired to rebound.
TJ Ford is a good example. He had it all mentally. Sabonis had all the mechanics right and great timing as well. I'm not with the other examples.
Re: Instead of comparing the Lebrons and Kobes to the Birds and Jordans...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Lebron doesnt dominate a game with his passing because of his passing ability. He can dominate a game with his passing because of his scoring ability. I dont feel like that needs to be explained but....im often letdown when I think something is too obvious to need explaining....so...
Lebron is a great passer. The reason he can make so many more plays than the many people who can pass as well is that unlike most of them...he could probably score 35ppg if he decided to and it changes how he and his teammates are defended.
Lebron isnt doing anything I find more impressive than some of Antione Walkers passes in the 90s. He had some in 98 that had me ready to support a Pippen for Toine trade. I might see if I can find the one in the 98 ASG....
Antione not being Karl Malones size with Russell Westbrooks athletic ability doesnt make him a worse passer. It helps make him a worse playmaker/shot creator. But they arent the same thing.
A guy like Sabonis will never rack up assists because his mobility didnt put him in position to roam the floor and make plays. So most of his great passes are from theh igh or low post. Doesnt make him a worse passer than every guard who can get more varied. It just isnt that simple.
Ive seen Kukoc, Drexler, and Toine make passes ive not seen from Lebron. Ive seen him do things ive not seen from them. Ive seen none of them do anything to just put one a mile ahead of the others.
Far as Drexlers assists being due to unselfishness....when Lebron blows by a guy and has a lane but instead dumps it off to a teammate left open by the rotating help defense who isnt even in position to stop Lebron....whats that?
If Lebron just took the shots he could make hed score 32-33 a game right now. His assists are because he wants assists. Which is fine. But lets not call it something else.
Manu, Brent Barry, Kukoc, and a few others....given Lebrons physical talents? They are dropping dimes all day. They did enough of it as role players to make that clear to me. And passing isnt scoring where you need to do it to prove you can. Thats just....assists. They proved they had the passing ability. Just not the rest of Lebron that gives him the ability and blessing to go do whatever he wants. Tell Manu to run wild with nothing but shooters and finishers around him hes gonna put on a show.
Hes done it just enough that I dont feel that can even be questioned. Some of the others have not....but again...passing and being given playmaking duties due to overall ability...not the same thing.
Lebron is no better a flat out passer than TJ Ford was on the Bucks. Which is crazy for a guy his size. But we dont need to jump to the Magics and Birds to find comparisons.
Shit Penny Hardaway in 1994 form in the wide open guards first leauge we have now would be on 3 top 10s a night and 2 would be midair no look passes.
Lot more guys on that level than get credit for it.
I see exactly what you mean, i agree with much of it... except for example the notion of Lebron dominating with his passing because of his scoring... dont confuse Lebron with Kobe or something.... Lebron doesnt need a double team to make the pass, you dont force Lebron to pass... as soon as he sees an angle even with one helpess defender infront of him and even with nobody around him he will lazer beam it with bullet speed & accuracy because that most likely meant a better look for his team....
Like this for example:
Thats called something out of nothing... thats called threading the needle... thats NOT something any of those players you mentioned were able to do at Lebrons or Birds magnitude...
Lebron CAN kill you simply with his passing, with no benefits as a scorer.... somebody like Kukoc... couldnt... but because Lebron is also a great scorer, he will get those benefits (double teams, paying to much attention on Lebron, leaving others open) Lebron does not complain and makes those passes....
Re: Instead of comparing the Lebrons and Kobes to the Birds and Jordans...
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauk
I see exactly what you mean, i agree with much of it... except for example the notion of Lebron dominating with his passing because of his scoring... dont confuse Lebron with Kobe or something.... Lebron doesnt need a double team to make the pass, you dont force Lebron to pass... as soon as he sees an angle even with one helpess defender infront of him and even with nobody around him he will lazer beam it with bullet speed & accuracy because that most likely meant a better look for his team....
Like this for example:
Thats called something out of nothing... thats called threading the needle... thats NOT something any of those players you mentioned were able to do at Lebrons or Birds magnitude...
Lebron CAN kill you simply with his passing, with no benefits as a scorer.... somebody like Kukoc... couldnt... but because Lebron is also a great scorer, he will get those benefits (double teams, paying to much attention on Lebron, leaving others open) Lebron does not complain and makes those passes....
LeBron is a great passer out of necessity. It's because he draws so much attention from the defence that those passes are even possible. Granted, he has the vision to be able to see them before it happens, but skills like that don't spontaneously produce themselves simply because he's a great player, he HAD to learn how to do that in order to open things up for himself. The more he gets to play one on one, the more he beasts. Therefore, to say no other player could "thread the needle" like him etc etc. is not really a valid argument, because there has never been a player like LeBron in the history of the NBA so it is impossible to compare.
Re: Instead of comparing the Lebrons and Kobes to the Birds and Jordans...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burgz V2
LeBron is a great passer out of necessity. It's because he draws so much attention from the defence that those passes are even possible. Granted, he has the vision to be able to see them before it happens, but skills like that don't spontaneously produce themselves simply because he's a great player, he HAD to learn how to do that in order to open things up for himself. The more he gets to play one on one, the more he beasts. Therefore, to say no other player could "thread the needle" like him etc etc. is not really a valid argument, because there has never been a player like LeBron in the history of the NBA so it is impossible to compare.
Re: Instead of comparing the Lebrons and Kobes to the Birds and Jordans...
Quote:
Originally Posted by chazzy
Already did.. pauk the songs you picked for that vid are wack, but good job
Dude that video is awesome Its only a compliment if you think i made it... i just dont like the songs tho, if only i had the skills & footage i would want to make it better and longer, there are many sick passes that were not included... but its an awesome video
Instead of comparing the Lebrons and Kobes to the Birds and Jordans...
Its only a compliment if you think i made it... i just dont like the songs tho, if only i had the skills & footage i would want to make it better and longer, there are many sick passes that were not included... but its an awesome video
