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Old 07-03-2013, 10:01 PM   #1
Psileas
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Default What is the distance among your top 10 GOATs?

The "LeBron can at best/at worst be #2" discussion inspired me to ask this.

Suppose you have a scale from 1 to 10. Your task is to match your top-10 GOAT players with numerical values from 1 to 10, depending on the distance seperating their value (in your opinion, of course), with a higher numerical value indicating a higher value as a player, as well.

Give your GOAT a 10, your 10th GOAT a 1, then give your other 8 GOATs numerical values anywhere from 1 to 10 (ties are allowed) to determine the distance between them. You may use decimals.

So, here's a random example:

Kobe: 10
LeBron: 8.7
Spanoulis: 8.5
Jordan: 7.9
Kareem: 6.5
Wilt: 6.5
Magic: 5
Bird: 4.999
Shaq: 3.14159
Duncan: 1
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:03 PM   #2
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Default Re: What is the distance among your top 10 GOATs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psileas
The "LeBron can at best/at worst be #2" discussion inspired me to ask this.

Suppose you have a scale from 1 to 10. Your task is to match your top-10 GOAT players with numerical values from 1 to 10, depending on the distance seperating their value (in your opinion, of course), with a higher numerical value indicating a higher value as a player, as well.

Give your GOAT a 10, your 10th GOAT a 1, then give your other 8 GOATs numerical values anywhere from 1 to 10 (ties are allowed) to determine the distance between them. You may use decimals.

So, here's a random example:

Kobe: 10
LeBron: 8.7
Spanoulis: 8.5
Jordan: 7.9
Kareem: 6.5
Wilt: 6.5
Magic: 5
Bird: 4.999
Shaq: 3.14159
Duncan: 1

You gave Spanoulis a 8.5 so you can justify giving Kobe a 10? Nice try.

Negged
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:10 PM   #3
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Default Re: What is the distance among your top 10 GOATs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by noob cake
You gave Spanoulis a 8.5 so you can justify giving Kobe a 10? Nice try.

Negged

To justify giving Kareem a 6.5. Thanks anyway.
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:35 PM   #4
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Default Re: What is the distance among your top 10 GOATs?

I don't do GOAT rankings anymore, but here are some thoughts from my last attempt:

I do think MJ/Russ have to be at the top, with a small (but significant, if that makes sense) gap following Wilt. He has to be ahead of Kareem, but Magic has to be ahead of him. I also now think Bird has to be ahead of Magic, but I don't think he's in Wilt's class. I'm not going to place the active players, but Hakeem and Shaq are right there. Robertson and Erving make this difficult, since either guy can be as high as 4 as well. So my last attempt before giving up was:

Jordan/Russell
Wilt
---
Bird/Erving/Magic/Robertson/Hakeem/Shaq/Kareem

Those are definitely my top 10 as of last year (again, excluding active players). I gave consideration to West and a couple of others, but they I think are slightly below these ten. All three of LeBron, Duncan, Kobe are in that group with the other seven guys. Any of the three could join the second group, but it would most likely have to be LeBron since the other two are closer to the end.

Again, I don't do these lists anymore. I don't know if you frequent RealGM, but on the PC board a poster named ElGee has proposed a project that might revolutionize these lists, so maybe I'll try again then. In the future, I think any rankings I do will be a hypothetical draft order, which works well with that project. More bigs might knock some of the guys above out, but it makes a lot more sense to me than an arbitrary top 10.
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:26 PM   #5
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Default Re: What is the distance among your top 10 GOATs?

Given those 10, and how I felt about them when I made the list:

10 Jordan / Russell
8 Wilt
2 Bird / Erving / Robertson
1 Magic / Hakeem / Shaq / Kareem

This isn't to say that Jordan is ten times Kareem, but just how I see it based on your criteria.
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Old 07-04-2013, 12:29 AM   #6
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Default Re: What is the distance among your top 10 GOATs?

I don't think I could assign a realistic number to each, but here is my take...

1-4. (tie) Russell, Wilt, Magic, MJ

A slight, but still significant drop-off to...

5. Kareem

Another drop-off to...

6-7. Shaq, Duncan.


A considerably larger drop-off to...

8-13. (In any order) Moses, Kobe, Hakeem, Dr. J, and Lebron.


Russell basically accomplished what all others want/wanted...to win. 11 titles in 13 seasons.

Chamberlain dominated all of his peers far more than anyone else...and the list of the players he dominated includes Russell. Just a few more points, total, in several post-seasons, an often heavily ougunned, and with his teammates playig even worse, and he could have won 4-5 more rings...and most of them would have been at Russell's expense. And no one in the history of the game, has carried poor rosters as far as he did. He was basically single-handedly battling the Celtic Dynasty in his first five seasons.

Magic, IMHO, was the greatest pure winner in basketball history. Granted, he didn't win as many titles as Russell, but if you include regular season W-L records, trips to the Finals, and rings, he was arguably the greatest winner of all-time. And for those that claim that he needed KAJ...the year after Kareem retired, Magic led his team to a 63-19 record, or the Lakers second best record of the decade. Even in his last full season, he took an injured, and rapidly declining Laker team to a 58-24 record, and yet another trip to the Finals. IMO, it was not Magic who needed KAJ...it was completely the other way around.

MJ. I don't need to say much here. Certainly the greatest post-season scorer in NBA history, and his drive was only equalled by Russell's. He wasn't infallible, as many seem to believe, but when he was paired with quality rosters, he usually won titles.


KAJ. No player had his longevity. And a peak, motivated Kareem, from 70-71 thru 73-74, was second only to Chamberlain in individual domination. Still, if you rally break everything down...Wilt was a consideraby better scorer, a more efficient shooter (KAJ benefitted from playing half of his career in the 80's...had Wilt had that luxury, the sky would have been the limit in FG%), a considerably better rebounder (better in every aspect of rebounding, even an old Chamberlain was a better rebounder), a considerably better shot-blocker (even an old Wilt was better than a peak KAJ), a better passer, and a considerably better team and individual defender. The ony area in which KAJ would have an edge, would have been in FT%, but even then, Wilt made far more FTs, per season, than KAJ.

Shaq-Duncan. It's difficult to say that Duncan has had a better career, because Shaq played for 19 seasons, and was arguably the best player in the game in far more of them than Duncan was...and the two played together for many seasons. And a peak Shaq was only behind Wilt and KAJ in overall individual domination. Duncan, however, has had a better overall curve in is tenure. Finally, Duncan is just behind Russell and Magic in "winning." He like those two, never were close to playing on even .500 teams, much less losers.

The rest all have their cases, but none of them can claim to have the resume that the players listed above have had. Of course, Lebron, barring injury, probably has a good 10 seasons left, and I would assume that at least five will be close to prime years. And since I don't think Kobe will ever be the same again, Lebron s really the only player that will move up on that list.

And before anyone questions my take on Moses. A peak Moses, a peak Shaq, and a peak Wilt are the only centers to completely dominate all of their more decorated opposing centers. KAJ couldn't do much of anything against Thurmond, and even an old Wilt, in his worst season of his career, was able to battle a peak KAJ, in his greatest overall season (70-71) to a statistical draw over the course of their ten h2h games that year. But a prime Moses just battered all of his opposing centers, including KAJ (who some would say was near his prime, as well...although I don't.)

And, if you include the ABA years, which were really his prime years, Dr. J's resume is as good as any in the group I placed him in.
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Old 07-04-2013, 01:08 AM   #7
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Default Re: What is the distance among your top 10 GOATs?

People need to seriously stop ranking lebron in the top 10. He's hovering but hes not there yet. You easily forget the massive collapse of the 2011 finals after assembling the greatest superteam ever. I'm pretty sure everyone on the forum shouted he will never be close to a GOAT. Do i need to bump those threads? Back 2 back chips are great, but the team is stacked. Guy almost lost it if it wasnt for a Ray Allen 3.
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Old 07-04-2013, 01:17 AM   #8
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Default Re: What is the distance among your top 10 GOATs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by talkingconch
People need to seriously stop ranking lebron in the top 10. He's hovering but hes not there yet. You easily forget the massive collapse of the 2011 finals after assembling the greatest superteam ever. I'm pretty sure everyone on the forum shouted he will never be close to a GOAT. Do i need to bump those threads? Back 2 back chips are great, but the team is stacked. Guy almost lost it if it wasnt for a Ray Allen 3.

I am not a huge Lebron fan. But even I have to admit that his resume is top-10 worthy. Four MVPs, two rings, four Finals (including with a horrible roster), two 60+ win teams in Cleveland (and then after he left they fell to 19-63), absolute brilliant individual post-seasons (even one of 35 ppg, 9 rpg, 8 apg, and on .510 shooting), a scoring title, two seasons of 30+ ppg, and a myriad of other accolades.

I'm sorry, but he has already accomplished more than Hakeem, and is on even-footing with Bird. And, obviously, barring injury, he will continue to add to it.

BTW, in this year's title, you can hardly claim that he had "stacked" teammates...unless you think Wade's 15.9 ppg, and Bosh's 12.1 ppg were something special (and they were worse in the Finals.)
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