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Old 11-21-2006, 03:29 PM   #1
allball
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Default OT: Salaries of NL and AL MVPs

Check it out:

"...Morneau became the second Canadian-born player to win an MVP following Colorado's Larry Walker in 1997. Morneau is the fourth Minnesota player to win -- Zoilo Versalles earned the honor in 1965, Harmon Killebrew in 1969 and Rod Carew in 1977.

Earning just $385,000 in just his third season as a regular, Morneau was a relative bargain. Philadelphia's Ryan Howard, voted NL MVP on Monday, made $355,000."

what a bargain
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Old 11-21-2006, 03:41 PM   #2
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Jeter got robbed. Sad.
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Old 11-21-2006, 04:31 PM   #3
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Morneau = one of the worst MVP picks ever. The MVP should've come down to Santana, Jeter and Mauer (IMO Jeter and Santana at 1 and 2 in whatever order, a case could be made for either). How a player can win MVP of the league when he's only the 3rd most valuable player on his own TEAM is baffling. Players more deserving of the MVP than Morneau:

Santana
Jeter
Mauer
Ortiz
Hafner
Dye
Guillen
Sizemore
Ramirez


This is nearly as bad as Mo Vaughn beating out Albert Belle in the 90's. I'm Canadian so I think it would be cool if Morneau won an MVP... if he actually deserved one.
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Old 11-21-2006, 06:03 PM   #4
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How a player can win MVP of the league when he's only the 3rd most valuable player on his own TEAM is baffling.
Because he's actually the 2nd most valuable, ahead of Joe Mauer.

Quote:
Santana
Perhaps, but he's already getting the Cy Young.

Quote:
Jeter
Very close.

Quote:
Mauer
Nope. Sub 20 HR/100RBI isn't going to get you an MVP.

Quote:
Ortiz
If his team made the playoffs, maybe.

Quote:
Hafner
Maybe, if his team wasn't stuck in mediocrity.

Quote:
Dye
Again, if his team made the playoffs, perhaps.

Quote:
Guillen
No, not even close.

Quote:
Sizemore
Once again, no, not even close. These last two were positively ludicrous.
Ramirez[/quote]
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Old 11-21-2006, 06:15 PM   #5
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I don't get what makes him such a bad choise. He has the stats to back it up, and pretty much willed his team to the playoffs. Why is he such a horrible MVP? Because he's not a big name?

Take Jeter off the Yankees, they make the playoffs. Take Morneau off the Twins, not even close.
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Old 11-21-2006, 06:23 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One of Shemps Kids
I don't get what makes him such a bad choise. He has the stats to back it up, and pretty much willed his team to the playoffs. Why is he such a horrible MVP? Because he's not a big name?

Take Jeter off the Yankees, they make the playoffs. Take Morneau off the Twins, not even close.


You see for yourself
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Old 11-21-2006, 06:25 PM   #7
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Santana.
Perhaps, but he's already getting the Cy Young.
I guess that's one reason that can work. The separation between MVP and Cy Young needs to be defined better.

Quote:
Jeter
Very close.
Not really. Look at any detailed stat and it supports Jeter (Value Over Replacement Player, Win Shares, Runs Created, Wins Above Replacement Player). A very good SS is more valuable than a very good 1B, that should be common sense.

Quote:
Mauer
Nope. Sub 20 HR/100RBI isn't going to get you an MVP.
Just like in Jeter's case, it should when you playing a premium position and putting up big offensive #'s. What's easier to replace, Morneau's production at 1B or Mauer's at C? (there is a definite correct answer here). Shouldn't being harder to replace a player's production mean that they are more "valuable" to the team?? Not to mention that Mauer was actually a good defensive catcher as well.

Quote:
Ortiz.
If his team made the playoffs, maybe.
What should playoffs have to do with MVP voting?? Baseball is the biggest "sum of its parts" sport as there is. No ONE player has full control over a game unless they are a great hitting #1 pitcher in the NL. I HATE the Red Sox probably more than anyone on the Earth but Ortiz easily was better and more valuable than Morneau. His offensive #'s completely dwarfed Morneau's, enough to overcome the small 1B or DH tradeoff in Morneau's favour and then some.

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Hafner
Maybe, if his team wasn't stuck in mediocrity.
Exact same reasons as Ortiz.

Quote:
Dye.
Again, if his team made the playoffs, perhaps.
Same as Ortiz/Hafner AND Dye played a more important position in the field (relative to 1B) and he played it well.

Quote:
Guillen.
No, not even close.
It is close and this is my opinion. It depends on if you actually go by a player being more "VALUABLE" (positional worth, opportunity cost). Similar to my Jeter argument although this is a lot closer.

Quote:
Ramirez.
Once again, no, not even close. These last two were positively ludicrous.
Ramirez
This is one that can be disputed either way. Manny Ramirez was the much better hitter (OBP/SLG/OPS) but his defense was so incredibly atrocious this past year that it definetly takes some value away there.


It should've been Jeter or Santana. Or if you don't like pitchers getting it, Jeter or Mauer.


Quote:
Take Jeter off the Yankees, they make the playoffs. Take Morneau off the Twins, not even close.
Could you back this up with anything?? And even if it were true, what if we can put a # on how many wins each player added to their teams?? What if Jeter added around 11 wins (but the Yanks still make the playoffs) and Morneau added around 8?? (These #'s are pretty close if you look at Win Shares and WARP, don't feel like looking them up again). Jeter contributed more to his teams success. The fact that Santana and Mauer were more valuable on the Twins alone makes this result a joke.

Last edited by Qwyjibo : 11-21-2006 at 06:30 PM.
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Old 11-21-2006, 06:25 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One of Shemps Kids
I don't get what makes him such a bad choise. He has the stats to back it up, and pretty much willed his team to the playoffs. Why is he such a horrible MVP? Because he's not a big name?

Take Jeter off the Yankees, they make the playoffs. Take Morneau off the Twins, not even close.

Exactly... just about every year the Yankees have a team full of MVP's, it's a joke that Jeter finished as high as he did in the balloting. There are quite a few players that are more valuable to their teams. Take Morneau, Santana, or Mauer off the Twins and watch their record drop farther than the Yankees if they lost Jeter. If the Twins were in a bigger market, Morneau would've won by quite a bit and people wouldnt be complaining about how bad of a choice it was.
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Old 11-21-2006, 06:27 PM   #9
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Take a lot of players off teams and watch them drop. The phuck is the point? Take Santana off the Twins.
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Old 11-21-2006, 06:36 PM   #10
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Again, what's easier to replace??

Santana's production??
- Without a doubt the best pitcher in the league.

Mauer's production at C??
- Go look at stats comparing positional replacement players, you won't find this kind of production from catchers too often and you definetly couldn't in the AL this year.

or Morneau's production at 1B??
- A very good year but nothing extraordinary relative to other 1B's and some DH's who could play 1B.


(answer: Morneau would be the easiest to replace)


So how is he "most valuable"?
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Old 11-21-2006, 06:37 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwyjibo
Again, what's easier to replace??

Santana's production??
- Without a doubt the best pitcher in the league.

Mauer's production at C??
- Go look at stats comparing positional replacement players, you won't find this kind of production from catchers too often and you definetly couldn't in the AL this year.

or Morneau's production at 1B??
- A very good year but nothing extraordinary relative to other 1B's and some DH's who could play 1B.


(answer: Morneau would be the easiest to replace)


So how is he "most valuable"?

Beeeeeeeeeeeecause if you take him off Twins are poo poo
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Old 11-21-2006, 08:39 PM   #12
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I guess that's one reason that can work. The separation between MVP and Cy Young needs to be defined better.
Well, we agree here.

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Not really. Look at any detailed stat and it supports Jeter (Value Over Replacement Player, Win Shares, Runs Created, Wins Above Replacement Player). A very good SS is more valuable than a very good 1B, that should be common sense.
Right, but not only do the triple crown numbers support Morneau heavily (and you shouldn't underestimate how much pull those have), Morneau is more important to the Twins than Jeter is to the Yankees. The Yankees start 9 All-Stars. They would have been fine without Jeter, just as they were fine without Sheffield and Matsui.

Quote:
Just like in Jeter's case, it should when you playing a premium position and putting up big offensive #'s. What's easier to replace, Morneau's production at 1B or Mauer's at C? (there is a definite correct answer here). Shouldn't being harder to replace a player's production mean that they are more "valuable" to the team?? Not to mention that Mauer was actually a good defensive catcher as well.
Mauer's a solid catcher, yes, but he's not winning MVP without breaking 20 HR and 100 RBI. Is it right? Maybe not, but it's just not happening.

Quote:
What should playoffs have to do with MVP voting?? Baseball is the biggest "sum of its parts" sport as there is. No ONE player has full control over a game unless they are a great hitting #1 pitcher in the NL. I HATE the Red Sox probably more than anyone on the Earth but Ortiz easily was better and more valuable than Morneau. His offensive #'s completely dwarfed Morneau's, enough to overcome the small 1B or DH tradeoff in Morneau's favour and then some.
Just like the NBA, W's play a factor. There's a reason Ortiz was a prime candidate last year and that he wasn't really in the running this year.[/quote]

Quote:
It is close and this is my opinion. It depends on if you actually go by a player being more "VALUABLE" (positional worth, opportunity cost). Similar to my Jeter argument although this is a lot closer.
You do realize Carlos Guillen led major league baseball in errors, right? His "positional value" was being a liability at the 6.

And I'm still shaking my head that you actually mentioned Grady Sizemore.

Personally, I think Jeter should have got it, but it really isn't much of a stretch that Morneau did.

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Old 11-21-2006, 08:51 PM   #13
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but it really isn't much of a stretch that Morneau did.

It is a phucking stretch! Mauer was more important than Morneau


(espn.com article)
Morneau awful choice for AL MVP

I think all carping about the NL MVP voters getting their choice wrong must immediately cease. The AL's voters couldn't even correctly identify the most valuable Twin, never mind wrapping their heads around a whole league.
The reality of baseball is that a great offensive player at an up-the-middle position is substantially more valuable than a slightly better hitter at a corner position. And when that up-the-middle player is one of the best fielders at his position in baseball, there's absolutely no comparison. Joe Mauer was more valuable than Justin Morneau this past season. If you don't understand that, you don't understand the first thing about baseball.

Mauer had a 54-point edge in OBP over Morneau, which overwhelms the advantage Morneau had in slugging percentage (a 52-point edge). But Mauer won the Gold Glove for his position this past year, and he is arguably the best-fielding catcher in the game when you consider all aspects of catching. Catchers who field and hit the way Mauer does are extremely valuable, just as shortstops who hit like Derek Jeter does and play passable defense are extremely valuable. First basemen who hit like Morneau just shouldn't win MVP awards in years when there are Mauers and Jeters and other candidates to choose from.
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Old 11-21-2006, 08:53 PM   #14
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Oh I forgot to even cover Grady Sizemore. He was definetly a better pick than Morneau. He had huge #'s at, again, an important position that he played very well.

.290/.375/.533 (190 hits, 28 HR, 76 RBI) while playing good D in CF and being a solid base-runner is damn good. But for some reason the MVP has to come from a playoff team

I guess my entire point is about what SHOULD be considered for MVP, not what actually is by the seemingly dumb and/or lazy writers.

Judging based on the results of the MVP, Gold Gloves and Silver Sluggers this year it's obvious that many voters for these things don't even attempt to do any in-depth research when making their selection. Morneau had the ESPN hype machine constantly with him in the last month or two (which is strange because you'd think Jeter would have it even more). The casual followers (which seems to include many voters) needed a slugger on a playoff team and Morneau was the top option here.

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Old 11-21-2006, 09:06 PM   #15
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.290/.375/.533 (190 hits, 28 HR, 76 RBI)
.321/.375/.559 (190 hits, 34 HR, 130 RBI). Hmmmm....

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while playing good D in CF and being a solid base-runner is damn good.
Those make him more complete but don't make up for the gaps in batting average, HR, and especially runs batted in.

Quote:
But for some reason the MVP has to come from a playoff team
Uhhh, it's not because Sizemore wasn't on a playoff team. It was because he isn't nearly as good as Justin Morneau.

Of all your choices, the only two that were truly ridiculous were Guillen and Sizemore. The others can be debated, but at the end of the day, Morneau as MVP isn't really that much of a reach.
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