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Old 01-22-2013, 02:19 PM   #46
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Default Re: Players better than Dwight Howard

Undrafted Greg Smith is a better player than D12 this year.
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Old 01-22-2013, 03:06 PM   #47
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Default Re: Players better than Dwight Howard

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horde of Temujin
one more addition: telephone poll

When you made the thread, it was ridiculous to suggest Dwight was not a top 5 player. He was from 2009-2012. And after this thread, he went on to dominate during the 2011 season.

This Dwight is not the Orlando Dwight for a variety of reasons. He's still not near 100%, and has only shown flashes of his previous athleticism. He's missing close shots he would have brought the rim down with in Orlando, and his go to shot, the jump hook hasn't been there, he's probably made less than half of how many he use to make. Plus, he went from a system built around his strengths, to a system that he doesn't fit in at all. Went from one of the most underrated coaches(Stan Van Gundy) to a terrible coach.

The difference is obvious both offensively and defensively. Dwight has gone from a top 5 player 4 years in a row to probably not even a top 15 player this season.
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Old 01-22-2013, 03:09 PM   #48
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Default Re: Players better than Dwight Howard

A used condom. It at least offers protection more than 50% of the time
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Old 01-22-2013, 03:17 PM   #49
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Default Re: Players better than Dwight Howard

Does anybody here realize he's still not 100%? I mean, he had back surgery and wasn't supposed to come back until this month. He came back early so that's going to slow down recovery time.
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Old 01-22-2013, 03:58 PM   #50
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Default Re: Players better than Dwight Howard

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Exlax
Does anybody here realize he's still not 100%? I mean, he had back surgery and wasn't supposed to come back until this month. He came back early so that's going to slow down recovery time.

Maybe he'll start looking better physically after the all-star break with the rest, and also since he was expected to be back by then. Honestly, I think he should sit out the all-star game. Dwight does have to play harder, but D'Antoni has to make a real effort to establish him in the post early in games. I have no idea what he was thinking having him barely touch the ball in the first and then going to him in the post in the 2nd. It's tough to judge his offensive game when they go to him just a few times a game in the post. But D'Antoni is a terrible coach, what else is new?
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:04 PM   #51
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Default Re: Players better than Dwight Howard

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Maybe he'll start looking better physically after the all-star break with the rest, and also since he was expected to be back by then. Honestly, I think he should sit out the all-star game. Dwight does have to play harder, but D'Antoni has to make a real effort to establish him in the post early in games. I have no idea what he was thinking having him barely touch the ball in the first and then going to him in the post in the 2nd. It's tough to judge his offensive game when they go to him just a few times a game in the post. But D'Antoni is a terrible coach, what else is new?

r u watching the games? he is touching the ball, he gets stripped, steps out of bounds, or goes up for a weak layup and casually bricks 2 free throws when he does.

Dantoni is a bad coach but that doesn't absolve Dwight of his play. the guy has been garbage. Lakers look better offensively when Gasol is playing center. He has no moves and looks like robocop trying to learn how to walk each time he gets the ball down in the post. it's always that same stupid spin move that exposes the ball to the defender and causes a turnover.

without hops he's a lower tier center flat out.

off the court he's just a disaster. waving a stat sheet and dissing teammate behind their back. pure petty effeminate shit.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:09 PM   #52
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Default Re: Players better than Dwight Howard

Quote:
Originally Posted by STATUTORY
r u watching the games? he is touching the ball, he gets stripped, steps out of bounds, or goes up for a weak layup and casually bricks 2 free throws when he does.

Dantoni is a bad coach but that doesn't absolve Dwight of his play. the guy has been garbage. Lakers look better offensively when Gasol is playing center. He has no moves and looks like robocop trying to learn how to walk each time he gets the ball down in the post. it's always that same stupid spin move that exposes the ball to the defender and causes a turnover.

without hops he's a lower tier center flat out.

off the court he's just a disaster. waving a stat sheet and dissing teammate behind their back. pure petty effeminate shit.

I am watching the games, just watched the Chicago game and admitted he was unbelievably bad. That's how I knew D'Antoni didn't have him touch the ball basically at all in the first and all of a sudden tries establishing him in the post in the second.

He rarely gets post up opportunities. That's a fact, certainly not enough to get into a rhythm. They try force feeding the ball into him when he's under the basket in a crowd. Even when he does get a hook shot off, if he misses, they usually go away from him for most of the game. You can't be at your best offensively that way.

And I never gave Dwight a pass. I've said that he needs to play harder and have a better attitude. But it's not all his fault. He hasn't been put in a position to succeed either, and as a big man you need that.

He has gotten stripped a lot, and he's committing very stupid fouls(particularly last night when all of his fouls were stupid and unnecessary) but if he was stripped nearly as much as some exaggerate, he'd be averaging more than 3.2 turnovers per game, and if he missed everything, or was as useless as some suggest, he wouldn't be averaging 17 on 58%.

I think he's been worse than the stats suggest offensively, but even so, a truly bad offensive center couldn't do that. Especially not in this situation.

By the way, Pau is clearly the better offensive player when he's utilized properly, no argument there. I've blasted D'Antoni for the way he's used Pau, but Pau's attitude has also been poor.

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Old 01-22-2013, 04:10 PM   #53
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Default Re: Players better than Dwight Howard

YES! The only move Dwight consistently displays is that shitty spin-move into a crowded lane where he brings the ball low into traffic, which most of the time results in a foul or strip and sometimes ends in a jump hook which doesn't even consistently go in. HE ONLY SPINS ONE WAY THOUGH AND DOESNT SEEM TO KNOW HOW TO GO BASELINE. It's really quite embarrassing this uncoordinated clown with brick hands thinks he should be the main option on offense on this Lakers team.

If anyone should be getting more touches in the post it is Pau and D12 should be clearing his scrub ass out doing nothing but setting screens and crashing the boards to catch Pau and Kobe's misses.

Dwight needs to realize that the only way he will win a title is as the garbage man, not as the main guy.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:18 PM   #54
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Default Re: Players better than Dwight Howard

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
When you made the thread, it was ridiculous to suggest Dwight was not a top 5 player. He was from 2009-2012. And after this thread, he went on to dominate during the 2011 season.

This Dwight is not the Orlando Dwight for a variety of reasons. He's still not near 100%, and has only shown flashes of his previous athleticism. He's missing close shots he would have brought the rim down with in Orlando, and his go to shot, the jump hook hasn't been there, he's probably made less than half of how many he use to make. Plus, he went from a system built around his strengths, to a system that he doesn't fit in at all. Went from one of the most underrated coaches(Stan Van Gundy) to a terrible coach.

The difference is obvious both offensively and defensively. Dwight has gone from a top 5 player 4 years in a row to probably not even a top 15 player this season.

I always welcome your input, but I respectfully disagree. As you alluded to, I attribute Dwight's success in Orl to the system implemented by Stan Van Gundy, the lack of quality big men in the league, and a weak conference. I agree that SVG is an underrated coach.

I realize that I must come off a little overzealous but it is because I get irate by how much Dwight is overrated. No way have i ever seen this guy as a top 10 player in the league, not even close, yet alone as a top 2 or 3 as many were suggesting at the time I made this thread. Everytime I watch him I can't get over his lack of fundamentals and can't help but fathom how this guy would've stacked up against even the second or third tier centers of past decades. I honestly believe this guy would've been outplayed by the likes of Rik Smits, Vlade Divac, Brad Daugherty, or Bill Laimbeer. More gifted players who were never considered among the top 2 or 3 players in the leagur.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:22 PM   #55
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Default Re: Players better than Dwight Howard

Only Lebron and CP3 are better than Dwight.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:25 PM   #56
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Default Re: Players better than Dwight Howard

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Originally Posted by Kiddlovesnets
Only Lebron and CP3 are better than Dwight.

Kevin Durant says hello
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:31 PM   #57
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Default Re: Players better than Dwight Howard

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
I am watching the games, just watched the Chicago game and admitted he was unbelievably bad. That's how I knew D'Antoni didn't have him touch the ball basically at all in the first and all of a sudden tries establishing him in the post in the second.

He rarely gets post up opportunities. That's a fact, certainly not enough to get into a rhythm. They try force feeding the ball into him when he's under the basket in a crowd. Even when he does get a hook shot off, if he misses, they usually go away from him for most of the game. You can't be at your best offensively that way.

And I never gave Dwight a pass. I've said that he needs to play harder and have a better attitude. But it's not all his fault. He hasn't been put in a position to succeed either, and as a big man you need that.

He has gotten stripped a lot, and he's committing very stupid fouls(particularly last night when all of his fouls were stupid and unnecessary) but if he was stripped nearly as much as some exaggerate, he'd be averaging more than 3.2 turnovers per game, and if he missed everything, or was as useless as some suggest, he wouldn't be averaging 17 on 58%.

I think he's been worse than the stats suggest offensively, but even so, a truly bad offensive center couldn't do that. Especially not in this situation.

By the way, Pau is clearly the better offensive player when he's utilized properly, no argument there. I've blasted D'Antoni for the way he's used Pau, but Pau's attitude has also been poor.

Just judging the lack of fluidity in his moves, I can't at all fathom how a team or a coach can just trust dumping the ball to him 20 times a game and expect good outcome. It's not just about playing poorly, it's about how BAD he looks while he's doing it. when Kobe struggles shooting, he's still getting off good looking shots that at least look like they have a chance of going in. Dwight looks like someone who has never played ball let alone at the NBA level when he catches the ball inside.

I would say Pau's attitude has been saintly compared to Dwight's. Pau's been publicly maligned and embarrassed and he's still going out there trying to make the team better. this quote is telling:

Quote:
After the game he brought a stat sheet around the locker room to show some teammates and reporters how he got only five field-goal attempts ... a few minutes before the demoted Gasol spoke gracefully across the room about "not pointing fingers, owning up to our responsibilities, wanting to get out of this and having the pride necessary that it takes to utilize our talents and go beat the opponent no matter who it is, no matter where we are."
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Old 01-22-2013, 05:22 PM   #58
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Default Re: Players better than Dwight Howard

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Originally Posted by Kiddlovesnets
Only Lebron and CP3 are better than Dwight.

Well, you'd be one happy camper if the Nets somehow land him.
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Old 01-22-2013, 05:42 PM   #59
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Default Re: Players better than Dwight Howard

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horde of Temujin
I always welcome your input, but I respectfully disagree. As you alluded to, I attribute Dwight's success in Orl to the system implemented by Stan Van Gundy, the lack of quality big men in the league, and a weak conference. I agree that SVG is an underrated coach.


Well, I respect that your open to different opinions, but I don't think it's fair to attribute all of it to Van Gundy. I mean how many centers can be the best defensive player in the year and average 23/14 on 59%? Or for a 2 month stretch, 27/15 on 63%?

As far as the conference? Well, look at some of the games he had vs Western Conference playoff teams in 2011 alone.

40 points, 15 rebounds, 6 blocks, 16/20 FG, 8/12 FT vs OKC
39 points, 18 rebounds, 3 blocks, 13/20 FG, 13/18 FT vs Portland
39 points, 18 rebounds, 2 blocks, 11/19 FG, 17/20 FT vs OKC
31 points, 13 rebounds, 3 assists, 3 blocks, 13/16 FG, 5/6 FT vs Lakers
29 points, 14 rebounds, 3 blocks, 11/13 FG, 7/12 FT vs Spurs
29 points, 20 rebounds, 2 blocks, 13/19 FG, 3/7 FT vs Hornets
26 points, 18 rebounds, 3 steals, 2 blocks, 11/16 FG, 4/7 FT vs Spurs
26 points, 23 rebounds, 3 steals, 2 blocks, 11/19 FG, 4/4 FT vs Dallas

Dwight was scoring consistently, and it wasn't all athleticism, he was no more athletic than he was in '07, '08 or '10, but scoring far more consistently. He wasn't a guy who just got his points by being spoonfed.

Here are some examples.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaBfWMNePCw&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww& index=197#t=1m09s

Some more from the same game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaBfWMNePCw&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww& index=197#t=1m40s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaBfWMNePCw&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww& index=197#t=2m05s

Not an unusual game for him by any stretch. And here's another game that was also by no stretch unusual.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww& index=198#t=1m04s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww& index=198#t=1m11s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww& index=198#t=1m28s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww& index=198#t=2m00s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww& index=198#t=2m49s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww& index=198#t=3m00s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww& index=198#t=3m27s

I have a lot of respect for Van Gundy and think what Dwight did to him was a scumbag move. But Van Gundy simply did what a good coach does, which is put a talented player in a position to succeed and build around your franchise player's strengths.

Dwight did have greatly improved skills in 2011, and showed much of them in 2012. People were writing about his improved skills a lot in 2011, and I remember Van Gundy getting annoyed at people crediting Hakeem for Howard's improved skills rather than Howard for working on his game.

This wasn't that long ago, I can't believe people don't remember this.

Quote:
I realize that I must come off a little overzealous but it is because I get irate by how much Dwight is overrated. No way have i ever seen this guy as a top 10 player in the league, not even close, yet alone as a top 2 or 3 as many were suggesting at the time I made this thread. Everytime I watch him I can't get over his lack of fundamentals and can't help but fathom how this guy would've stacked up against even the second or third tier centers of past decades. I honestly believe this guy would've been outplayed by the likes of Rik Smits, Vlade Divac, Brad Daugherty, or Bill Laimbeer. More gifted players who were never considered among the top 2 or 3 players in the leagur.

I think you're greatly exaggerating. I honestly can't see how anyone could think he wasn't top 10 every year from 2008-2012, and certainly can't see even a single argument for Dwight being out of the top 5 in 2011.

Quote:
Originally Posted by STATUTORY
Just judging the lack of fluidity in his moves, I can't at all fathom how a team or a coach can just trust dumping the ball to him 20 times a game and expect good outcome. It's not just about playing poorly, it's about how BAD he looks while he's doing it. when Kobe struggles shooting, he's still getting off good looking shots that at least look like they have a chance of going in. Dwight looks like someone who has never played ball let alone at the NBA level when he catches the ball inside.

I would say Pau's attitude has been saintly compared to Dwight's. Pau's been publicly maligned and embarrassed and he's still going out there trying to make the team better. this quote is telling:

That's the thing, though, he's not getting a chance to get into any rhythm offensively, and they're not running anything that utilizes his strengths. Why not run a few sets from his Orlando days?

A problem is that Dwight isn't what he was physically when he was in Orlando, but look at the videos I posted above with him consistently getting his own shot. No reason why he can't at least do some of that if given the chance.

They should just try establishing him early. If it doesn't work, then go away from him. Kobe can get his whenever he wants, he's shown in the past that he can be passive in the 1st and still end up with 35-40.

I've always like Pau, but his attitude really hasn't been good, and it's clear he's not happy. I don't blame him one bit, but he's pretty much deadweight for this Laker team at this point. I don't see him bouncing back to the old Gasol in LA, and he's 32 so I really think it's time to trade him, and Pau seems like he'd be fine with that.
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Old 01-25-2013, 08:14 PM   #60
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Default Re: Players better than Dwight Howard

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Well, I respect that your open to different opinions, but I don't think it's fair to attribute all of it to Van Gundy. I mean how many centers can be the best defensive player in the year and average 23/14 on 59%? Or for a 2 month stretch, 27/15 on 63%?

As far as the conference? Well, look at some of the games he had vs Western Conference playoff teams in 2011 alone.

40 points, 15 rebounds, 6 blocks, 16/20 FG, 8/12 FT vs OKC
39 points, 18 rebounds, 3 blocks, 13/20 FG, 13/18 FT vs Portland
39 points, 18 rebounds, 2 blocks, 11/19 FG, 17/20 FT vs OKC
31 points, 13 rebounds, 3 assists, 3 blocks, 13/16 FG, 5/6 FT vs Lakers
29 points, 14 rebounds, 3 blocks, 11/13 FG, 7/12 FT vs Spurs
29 points, 20 rebounds, 2 blocks, 13/19 FG, 3/7 FT vs Hornets
26 points, 18 rebounds, 3 steals, 2 blocks, 11/16 FG, 4/7 FT vs Spurs
26 points, 23 rebounds, 3 steals, 2 blocks, 11/19 FG, 4/4 FT vs Dallas

Dwight was scoring consistently, and it wasn't all athleticism, he was no more athletic than he was in '07, '08 or '10, but scoring far more consistently. He wasn't a guy who just got his points by being spoonfed.

Here are some examples.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaBfWMNePCw&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww& index=197#t=1m09s

Some more from the same game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaBfWMNePCw&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww& index=197#t=1m40s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaBfWMNePCw&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww& index=197#t=2m05s

Not an unusual game for him by any stretch. And here's another game that was also by no stretch unusual.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww& index=198#t=1m04s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww& index=198#t=1m11s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww& index=198#t=1m28s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww& index=198#t=2m00s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww& index=198#t=2m49s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww& index=198#t=3m00s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww& index=198#t=3m27s

I have a lot of respect for Van Gundy and think what Dwight did to him was a scumbag move. But Van Gundy simply did what a good coach does, which is put a talented player in a position to succeed and build around your franchise player's strengths.

Dwight did have greatly improved skills in 2011, and showed much of them in 2012. People were writing about his improved skills a lot in 2011, and I remember Van Gundy getting annoyed at people crediting Hakeem for Howard's improved skills rather than Howard for working on his game.

This wasn't that long ago, I can't believe people don't remember this.



I think you're greatly exaggerating. I honestly can't see how anyone could think he wasn't top 10 every year from 2008-2012, and certainly can't see even a single argument for Dwight being out of the top 5 in 2011.



That's the thing, though, he's not getting a chance to get into any rhythm offensively, and they're not running anything that utilizes his strengths. Why not run a few sets from his Orlando days?

A problem is that Dwight isn't what he was physically when he was in Orlando, but look at the videos I posted above with him consistently getting his own shot. No reason why he can't at least do some of that if given the chance.

They should just try establishing him early. If it doesn't work, then go away from him. Kobe can get his whenever he wants, he's shown in the past that he can be passive in the 1st and still end up with 35-40.

I've always like Pau, but his attitude really hasn't been good, and it's clear he's not happy. I don't blame him one bit, but he's pretty much deadweight for this Laker team at this point. I don't see him bouncing back to the old Gasol in LA, and he's 32 so I really think it's time to trade him, and Pau seems like he'd be fine with that.

The problem I have is that I don't respect players who rely heavily on athleticism as much as others who are skilled. In my opinion Olajuwon was the best center to play, certainly the best that I have seen, he had the combination of athleticism and skill. He was truly a marvel and is the benchmark in which I measure all centers against.
I must acknowledge that those stat lines you posted are undeniable and could not be put up by any ordinary scrub. So I guess I will have to say what bothers me is that Dwight is an amazingly athletic player who has not lived up to his potential. He could be so much more!
While Dwight does display some moves and decent footwork in the videos he posted, he always relied mostly on his freakish level of athleticism to get his points. His rebounding and defensive prowess is unquestionable, one thing that always bothered me which is prevalent among many players in the league, is why the hell can't he just catch the ball instead of swatting it out of bounds!
Some argue that Dwight's current woes are attributed to a flawed system and a lack of touches. I feel it is due to the lack of a fundamental skill set to compensate for his back injury. The effect of his injury on his game is obvious and I guess I should cut the guy some slack (but as you can see my hate runs deep since I started this thread at the peak of his powers) He also has a terrible attitude. I think the Lakers should trade Dwight. The reason Pau is deadweight is because of the inability to mesh with Dwight and if you have to choose between the two, i would go with Pau.

How do you think Dwight measures up to centers from the 90's and 80's? As I stated earlier, I don't think he was even better than guys like Vlade, Rik Smits, Artis Gilmore, Brad Daugherty, Arvidas Sabonis, Mourning, yet alone the all-time greats such as Hakeem, Shaq, and Kareem. There are some misconceptions of today's game but it is absolutely true that the number of quality centers in the league has diminished.

Last edited by Horde of Temujin : 01-26-2013 at 08:53 AM.
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