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Old 01-21-2011, 04:58 PM   #1
gts
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Default The CBA, Contraction and summer of 2011

Ok very complex subject... As everyone knows this summer the NBA and NBAPA will go to the table to negotiate a new Collective Bargaining Agreement aka CBA.

This is not a thread for finger pointing :examples stern is a asswipe, the players are weak minded greedy SOB's the owners are lying about the money they make etc etc etc

What I'd like to see is honest discussion on what you think would benefit the sport we love so much.


Also your thoughts on contracting teams, this is not a CBA talking point but since it's a hammer the owners are swinging i suppose it blongs in the discussion but lets stay away from the league is watered down aspect since i have never seen anyone make a good argument on that topic either way. contraction talk is a financial discussion for this thread

Also
Franchise tags on players?
Non gauranteed contracts?
Salary Cap, non? hard or soft or both?
Rookie contracts?
etc etc etc
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Old 01-21-2011, 05:43 PM   #2
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Default Re: The CBA, Contraction and summer of 2011

The owners are looking to cut salaries. So even if the nba makes it mandatory on lowering player salaries or not players are getting a paycut.

On the contraction issue, if a team cannot afford to be self sufficient, IMO they should be axed. But I highly doubt the owners or players will consider that.

And another thing, I do not think there will be ANY basketball next season at all. I just got that feeling.
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Old 01-21-2011, 05:57 PM   #3
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Default Re: The CBA, Contraction and summer of 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris2010
The owners are looking to cut salaries. So even if the nba makes it mandatory on lowering player salaries or not players are getting a paycut.
it's a "collective bargaining agreement" the owners aka the NBA cannot make anything mandatory, the players and owners will be in agreement on salary cuts
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Old 01-21-2011, 06:40 PM   #4
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Default Re: The CBA, Contraction and summer of 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by gts
it's a "collective bargaining agreement" the owners aka the NBA cannot make anything mandatory, the players and owners will be in agreement on salary cuts

I think what he meant is that the owners have the upperhand in these discussions, and they can force the players into giving up some of the excessive monetary benefits that they currently get. Essentially lower the player's salaries.

I definitely agree that the ownership side has the upperhand since they pay the players and they have other options (which I will soon explain). It is basically the company owner vs employees argument.

To put it into perspective, lets say for example purposes, we use Microsoft. They have a large ownership group with everyone owning a different % of the company; after the company runs into financial crisis and the worker's union feel like they do not want to give up any of their benefits, they will fight to keep all of the benefits. The fight might go back and forth for some time, but eventually, Microsoft will have the upperhand because they will be in a position to say that they will find some replacement employees. Anyone willing to stay under their new policies will be guaranteed their old position back, anyone not willing to accept the changes can go find another job. During a financial crisis, there will always be other people waiting in line to get a job position. I am sure that Microsoft would have no problem finding replacement employees willing to work with lesser benefits than the original group of employees fighting to keep their old benefits without taking a hit.

Here's the kicker for NBA players: Most of the players have no college degree and as we know, most of the NBA players go into debt or bankruptcy once they retire. That means those players really do not have any skills to go into a different field, and many of them may be reaching a point in age where they are starting to lose their athleticism. They may have never seen any reason to save their millions in their banks and may have spent everything they had. What do you do now with your job maybe closing down if you don't agree to give up some of your benefits?

Now, the benefits hitch wouldn't be too insane. Instead of making $10 mill a year, you will make $7 mill under the new policies. Would you rather make those $7 million guaranteed or fight and maybe end up losing months and months of the payment? Then again, the league could end up finding replacement players easily if they had to (and who wouldn't want to play in the NBA even if they are not star-level?) or make some statement like "If you are willing to take the monetary hitch, you are free to negotiate with the ownership of your respective teams UNDER our new policies; if you are not willing to do it, then wait in line with the rest of player's union. Go find another job in the meantime if you are unhappy with our offer."

If you read through all that, that is how the owners have the upperhand over the players, in a nutshell. As a business, NBA is no different as much as we may hate to admit it. NBA and the owners can completely bring the players on their knees if they wanted to (of course, owners would lose money themselves in the process, but they have the ability to wait it out much longer than the players if they had to).

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Old 01-21-2011, 07:45 PM   #5
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Default Re: The CBA, Contraction and summer of 2011

good stuff blade


the owners would have to break the union to really have the upper hand which would leave them vulnerable to violation of antitrust laws...

sports franchises get away with violating all sorts of anti trust laws because they operate with that CBA, they negotiate within the constraints and the knowledge of those constraints dictated by the federal laws...

to gain a true upper hand they would have to threaten to not acknowledge the union or it's participants... that's why the players union has hinted at dissolving the union because they know that would cripple the owners from even making arrangements in forming a new league or restaffing the current league with scabs.

yes the owners have more money and most can afford to try and waitout the players in some regard but there are many avenues for players to make money playing basketball and if the owners were to turn it into a waiting game they'd take a huge hit also, massive hits these guy have billion dollar TV contracts to fulfill..

don't forget this is not a surprise to the players, a possible lockout has been discussed for three years now and when you give a heads up for three years a millionaire can make arrangements to get by for quite some time with no money coming in... a huge population of nba players make in excess of 1 million dollars a year, this isn't the dock workers against big massive shipping corporations or bill gates vs. his secretaries this is millionaires vs millionaires

Last edited by gts : 01-21-2011 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 01-21-2011, 09:58 PM   #6
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Default Re: The CBA, Contraction and summer of 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by gts
the owners would have to break the union to really have the upper hand which would leave them vulnerable to violation of antitrust laws...

sports franchises get away with violating all sorts of anti trust laws because they operate with that CBA, they negotiate within the constraints and the knowledge of those constraints dictated by the federal laws...

to gain a true upper hand they would have to threaten to not acknowledge the union or it's participants... that's why the players union has hinted at dissolving the union because they know that would cripple the owners from even making arrangements in forming a new league or restaffing the current league with scabs.

I dunno much about the antitrust laws as it applies to the NBA/NBAPA, and I am not even sure how similar is the NBA players union to others unions of different businesses around the country, but I truly wonder if the NBA (or teams specifically) can pay for replacement players? kind of like how the league had replacement referees..

the replacement refs were not used in reg season, but acquiring the pre-season replacement refs basically quickened the process of getting the refs union to agree to a new contract (or an extension if it was). Now that can be something that can give the owners an upper-hand, even though it would be temporary and still a money lose for the league. Again, I'm not sure in what ways do the NBAPA differ from the referees union, and whether the NBAPA would be in a stronger position to sue

Quote:
yes the owners have more money and most can afford to try and waitout the players in some regard but there are many avenues for players to make money playing basketball and if the owners were to turn it into a waiting game they'd take a huge hit also, massive hits these guy have billion dollar TV contracts to fulfill..

As for the owners having more money for holding out and players not having as much money - I also was talking about the education of the players putting them into a major hole. AFAIK, there is no other professional basketball league in this country after the NBA for those players to go join up and play in to make money.

The only out that players have if they want to continue playing professional basketball is a) move overseas and play overseas, b) join a minor league team if they want to stay here or c) create another professional league - not a realistic option. What other avenues do the players have for making money playing basketball outside of the NBA?

Of course, the top players like Kobe/LeBron/Wade/Melo/etc would all be able to get big money overseas so you would probably see them go move out but what about guys like Brown or Fisher or Blake or Dooling or Arroyo or Vujacic or Farmar or Jameer Nelson, etc? Those guys would be at a major disadvantage in the long haul. That is what I mean by the owners having an upper hand somewhat to pressure the guys making lesser money to try to internally push the NBAPA into agreeing sooner than later.

Quote:
don't forget this is not a surprise to the players, a possible lockout has been discussed for three years now and when you give a heads up for three years a millionaire can make arrangements to get by for quite some time with no money coming in... a huge population of nba players make in excess of 1 million dollars a year, this isn't the dock workers against big massive shipping corporations or bill gates vs. his secretaries this is millionaires vs millionaires

Well, I agree with your overall logic but I don't quite agree that the NBA players all heeded the advise of those that told them to be careful w/ their money 3 years ahead of time to save their money for a potential lockout. Most of them have their own financial advisers but look at how many go broke just 4-5 years after retiring. They know years ahead of time that their career may be almost over, yet they still go bankrupt within years of retiring. What does that tell you? There are many that don't - I am not trying to draw a dark picture that they all go broke - but merely trying to show you why I don't quite agree with that specific statement of yours as far as financial independence of these athletes is concerned.

Last edited by bladefd : 01-21-2011 at 10:01 PM.
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Old 01-21-2011, 10:40 PM   #7
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Default Re: The CBA, Contraction and summer of 2011

Quote:
I dunno much about the antitrust laws as it applies to the NBA/NBAPA, and I am not even sure how similar is the NBA players union to others unions of different businesses around the country, but I truly wonder if the NBA (or teams specifically) can pay for replacement players? kind of like how the league had replacement referees..
you should read up.. later i'll look for a link or something...

quick and dirty there are laws on the books to keep employers from treating employees like a commodity or indentured servent or slave... example: your boss can't call you into his office and tell you you've been traded to another company across the state for two office girls and next years top intern... but kobe's can...lol

anti trust laws cover alot from... keeping monopolies from forming, dictate how business goes about it's business and they also dictate labor and business relations etc etc it's a ginormous topic...lol

in the event of a lockout one of the first things the players union will do is attack the nba on antiturst laws, they always do...lol

the fining of players, suspensions the use of their names/faces without direct compensation are all things that fall under antitrust law.. it's huge.. but because there's a players union that bargains with the owners and agrees on how things are handled the dispersal of funds and other nonsense the league, owners and players circumnavigate many federal antitrust laws

as for the owners being able to field teams and having the money, you bet, they won't be paying the players and jerry buss can easily afford to build a team of temps, bus pays out 90 mill a year now in salaries so even 15 players at 50k each for a short season wouldn't be a problem... not sure how the d-league teams work in all this, i know some players are members of the nbapa but i don't believe they all are? they threatened it last lockout, i'm sure they will do so again

last lockout the players themselves organized a game or some games but i cannot for the life of me remember if they ever took place, i don't think they did

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Old 01-21-2011, 11:29 PM   #8
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Default Re: The CBA, Contraction and summer of 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by gts
as for the owners being able to field teams and having the money, you bet, they won't be paying the players and jerry buss can easily afford to build a team of temps, bus pays out 90 mill a year now in salaries so even 15 players at 50k each for a short season wouldn't be a problem... not sure how the d-league teams work in all this, i know some players are members of the nbapa but i don't believe they all are? they threatened it last lockout, i'm sure they will do so again

That is exactly what I meant by the owners having the upper-hand in this whole situation. I just wanted you to say it yourself as to how easily the owners can build a team of temps if it came down to it.

All the owners have to do is threaten the players that are part of the NBAPA that we are getting ready to bring in temps and pay them money directly through their agents. That threat would force MANY players to just leave the NBAPA and go talk directly with the owners of the teams that are interested in them after waiting for a certain period of time. Some of these guys won't stick around to see what their buddies in the players union would do; when your job, future, children/wives/girlfriends and everything is on the line, loyalty and friendship and everything else goes out the window.

My only question was how would the antitrust laws would apply as far as temp replacements are concerned. From what you said, it doesn't seem like law can stop a bunch of nba owners from bringing in temporary players until the CBA issue is solved to basically circumvent the lockout even though it would only be temporarily.

Quote:
last lockout the players themselves organized a game or some games but i cannot for the life of me remember if they ever took place, i don't think they did

That's pretty interesting. I am sure the players knew though that with something like that, there would be no insurance coverage if they get hurt if the lockout had lasted for a longer period. Ideally, I think we would expect the players to organize such a thing, but realistically I don't think it would workout for more than a couple months at best.
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Old 01-21-2011, 11:56 PM   #9
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Default Re: The CBA, Contraction and summer of 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladefd
That is exactly what I meant by the owners having the upper-hand in this whole situation. I just wanted you to say it yourself as to how easily the owners can build a team of temps if it came down to it.

All the owners have to do is threaten the players that are part of the NBAPA that we are getting ready to bring in temps and pay them money directly through their agents. That threat would force MANY players to just leave the NBAPA and go talk directly with the owners of the teams that are interested in them after waiting for a certain period of time.
lol who is gonna watch that crap? the owners can do it but it won't fly... just because the owners can afford to do it doesn't mean it'll bust the players union up or get players to cross picket lines.. not sure where you get that idea from my post, you're delusional if you think nba players are going to break up the union because tommy lee pickens from the utah stampede is going to be making 500 bucks a game wearing a lakers uniform...lol don't confuse the ability to do something with it being a good idea or that because the owners can field temps it means they have some mythical upper hand...

it didn't work last time, it didn't work in the nfl strike it didn't work in MLB, heck it barely worked with the nba refs.... the players can just as easily form a new league and sell it... who are you going to pay to see? a temporary team built of no names in purple and gold at staples center or kobe bryant lebron james and kevin durant at the long beach arena for 25 bucks a ticket?

Quote:
My only question was how would the antitrust laws would apply as far as temp replacements are concerned. From what you said, it doesn't seem like law can stop a bunch of nba owners from bringing in temporary players until the CBA issue is solved to basically circumvent the lockout even though it would only be temporarily.
on july first the cba expires there is no contract between the players and owners, the owners can do whatever they want as far as temps go... likewise the players are free to do whatever they want... if pau wants to go play in europe he can, if kobe wants to sign a contract with a rich guy in greece to play he can

the anti trust laws would only pertain to what the owners were doing with new players....

Quote:
That's pretty interesting. I am sure the players knew though that with something like that, there would be no insurance coverage if they get hurt if the lockout had lasted for a longer period. Ideally, I think we would expect the players to organize such a thing, but realistically I don't think it would workout for more than a couple months at best.
you can get insurance for anything... that would be the least of the players problems..lol
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:25 AM   #10
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Default Re: The CBA, Contraction and summer of 2011

Well, what are the main problems in the league? $$$
1. I hated the fact that some primadonnas like Stephon Marbury and TMac got away with getting paid by the full amount, like TMac robbing HOuston of like 22 Mil/year and declaring that he is still injured when the docs pronounced him healthy. I know they are players=money makers, but come on.
Therefore, I like partially gauranteed contracts esp if a player already is missing a ton of games that year. I understand that certain players might rush coming back from injuries, so there should be a "mediator" esp on QUESTIONABLE injuries.
2. It's ironic that Im a Lakers fan, and yet, I don't like teams that really go over the cap thereby causing a lot of lopsided and predictable outcomes. So Im in favor or raising the luxury tax from dollar for dollar to maybe 1.50 to even $2 per dollar over the threshold.
3. I didn't like the player collusion bet James, Bosh and Wade last summer. I know they want to win but its just unfair that they get away with it while the owners are not allowed to do it. I also can't believe that a player like Udonis Haslem would just reject Dallas lucrative offer and remain in Miami. I don't know any solution except more indepth investigation on what is happening.
4. Last but not the least, I esp hate owners like Donald Sterling of the Clips who absolutely do NOT CARE about winning. YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER YEAR, they sucked and get public Assistance by year after year getting the best college players. Minimal payroll and yet, earning so much $$$.Teams like the Clips are the ones that should be eliminated.
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:34 AM   #11
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Default Re: The CBA, Contraction and summer of 2011

i'm a get rid of the cap altogether guy...
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Old 01-22-2011, 01:14 PM   #12
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Default Re: The CBA, Contraction and summer of 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamaraw08
Well, what are the main problems in the league? $$$
1. I hated the fact that some primadonnas like Stephon Marbury and TMac got away with getting paid by the full amount, like TMac robbing HOuston of like 22 Mil/year and declaring that he is still injured when the docs pronounced him healthy. I know they are players=money makers, but come on.
Therefore, I like partially gauranteed contracts esp if a player already is missing a ton of games that year. I understand that certain players might rush coming back from injuries, so there should be a "mediator" esp on QUESTIONABLE injuries.
The guaranteed contracts do need to be dropped or changed, in total agreement here. Teams shouldn't be handcuffed by under performers.

Quote:
2. It's ironic that Im a Lakers fan, and yet, I don't like teams that really go over the cap thereby causing a lot of lopsided and predictable outcomes. So Im in favor or raising the luxury tax from dollar for dollar to maybe 1.50 to even $2 per dollar over the threshold.
I'm a get rid of the cap guy, to me a healthy nba is one where big market teams are dominant, i'd rather see a team like the knicks be a top tier team than the bobcats.. elite knicks will draw millions of fans where a bobcats team even if making a finals run will draw nobody from outside of the charlotte fan base...

Quote:
4. Last but not the least, I esp hate owners like Donald Sterling of the Clips who absolutely do NOT CARE about winning. YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER YEAR, they sucked and get public Assistance by year after year getting the best college players. Minimal payroll and yet, earning so much $$$.Teams like the Clips are the ones that should be eliminated.
not really a CBA talking point... yes it's frustrating that there is ownership that's doesn't seem to care but not sure how the league mandates ownership anymore than they do now.. hard to force someone to be competent.. i think the fan base has more pull in that regards, stop supporting the team...lol
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Old 01-22-2011, 03:02 PM   #13
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Default Re: The CBA, Contraction and summer of 2011

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Originally Posted by gts
lol who is gonna watch that crap? the owners can do it but it won't fly... just because the owners can afford to do it doesn't mean it'll bust the players union up or get players to cross picket lines.. not sure where you get that idea from my post, you're delusional if you think nba players are going to break up the union because tommy lee pickens from the utah stampede is going to be making 500 bucks a game wearing a lakers uniform...lol don't confuse the ability to do something with it being a good idea or that because the owners can field temps it means they have some mythical upper hand...

it didn't work last time, it didn't work in the nfl strike it didn't work in MLB, heck it barely worked with the nba refs.... the players can just as easily form a new league and sell it... who are you going to pay to see? a temporary team built of no names in purple and gold at staples center or kobe bryant lebron james and kevin durant at the long beach arena for 25 bucks a ticket?

You're right, nobody is going to watch that crap. Never said anywhere that it would be a good idea if you read my entire previous post. It would only act as a threat, perhaps a bluff to a level if you want to word it that. It would make the guys outside LeBron/Kobe/Wade/Durant/Gasol/other stars that do not have the same athletic abilities and similar alternative choices to make the same money starting for a professional basketball team elsewhere to try to push the NBAPA to try to reach an agreement sooner (Basically referring to the average starters getting good minutes while starting around the league like Jameer Nelson, Derek Fisher, Outlaw, Dooling, Arroyo as I mentioned 2 posts ago). If you read my whole post, you will see that I never said the players would break up the union, just said that they would push a bit harder internally to try to reach a decision with the owner threatening to bring in replacements. I hope I made my point a bit clearer; of course, it would be a financial lose for the owners without a doubt, but it would be merely temporary. They will most likely reach a decision before the lockout

As for your 2nd paragraph, it isn't as easy to build a new league even with guys like LeBron/Kobe/etc.. Players like LeBron, Kobe, Durant won't play for cheap.. They will make much more money by agreeing to what the current NBA owners want (at least partially) than by selling $25 tickets.

The overall profit will be less at the end of the day after you factor in all of the costs and all of the logistics to run a league. I will quickly go over how tough it would be to create a league like that.

First of all, you will have to figure out who is in and who is not; not all of the players will be willing to join up to create a league that may or may not work out. They may wish to just forget the whole idea to go run overseas to the first offer that some stable euro team gives them. Many will do it..

Second, you will have to figure out who will be running the league administration. The players have no experience as far as running the league goes so they will have to sign a contract with a 3rd party to run the administrative tasks.

Thirdly, you will have to figure out how to split up the teams. How do you split up the teams? Do a draft w/ all of the players that are in? How do you even work a draft like that? Random order? Coin flip for all of the teams involved?

Fourth of all, you will have to figure out where you will be playing. It costs money to run/rent a basketball stadium or a small court with chairs for the fans. That wouldn't come cheap.. costs millions to effectively rent a stadium..

Fifth, hire a referee staff. I am sure it wouldn't be hard to find guys who want to referee the games. The rules are where there could be another issue. Who creates the rules? or do they just transfer the NBA rules over?

Next, you will have to sell the product to networks like ESPN. Lets say these guys are able to hire a firm to represent the new alternative basketball league to sell the product to ESPN. It takes money to market a product so that would be the most important step. Nobody wants to come watch a bunch of unorganized teams playing

It is a very complex process that requires lots of money to get underway; it isn't as simple as saying "the players can easily create a new league and charge $25 per ticket." Then the players still don't know how much money they will end up making at the end of the day. That is why the top dogs wouldn't stick around; they would go move to European and just sign with some european team if push turned to shove. I haven't even look at the other costs/logistics that a new league like that would have to take into account; it is numerous other costs but I think I made my point

Quote:
you can get insurance for anything... that would be the least of the players problems..lol

It was just an example lol. I know you can get full health-coverage from a good insurance company for like 800-900 per month (even seen some pretty good $250 personal insurances). I am sure almost all of these players could afford it, but my point was that the costs would all add up. The way NBA is setup right now, the players don't have to think about all of those small costs/things. Things like insurance would all be covered and written in their contracts. Sign the contract after the agents do the negotiation and the private financial agents do their financing - the players are done; somebody else handles everything else.

Last edited by bladefd : 01-22-2011 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 01-22-2011, 03:15 PM   #14
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Default Re: The CBA, Contraction and summer of 2011

who's talking about a new league bladefd? you brought up temporary games during a lockout... i responded now you're running off like i'm trying to build a new basketball league...lol enough already
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Old 01-22-2011, 03:33 PM   #15
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Default Re: The CBA, Contraction and summer of 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamaraw08
Well, what are the main problems in the league? $$$
1. I hated the fact that some primadonnas like Stephon Marbury and TMac got away with getting paid by the full amount, like TMac robbing HOuston of like 22 Mil/year and declaring that he is still injured when the docs pronounced him healthy. I know they are players=money makers, but come on.
Therefore, I like partially gauranteed contracts esp if a player already is missing a ton of games that year. I understand that certain players might rush coming back from injuries, so there should be a "mediator" esp on QUESTIONABLE injuries.

What the NFL does works out very well as far as non-guaranteed contracts go. Every player has certain amount guaranteed but the rest is incentives based. I like that a lot. The main issue with the NFL as far as the contracts go is that rookies receive too much guaranteed money before they even prove themselves, they might get more money without playing a single game than some 10yr old veteran. I like the rookie contracts of NBA players. Just need the best of both worlds to get the perfect contracts.

Quote:
2. It's ironic that Im a Lakers fan, and yet, I don't like teams that really go over the cap thereby causing a lot of lopsided and predictable outcomes. So Im in favor or raising the luxury tax from dollar for dollar to maybe 1.50 to even $2 per dollar over the threshold.

Yup, the lopsidedness is an issue somewhat. Look at MLB; yankees spend almost as much money as the bottom 4 teams COMBINED (Pirates, Padres, Athletics, Rangers). The Yankees average salary is $8 mill, which is almost equal to the bottom 5 teams' average salaries combined*. It is insane how lopsided mlb has gotten; that is exactly what the NBA needs to avoid under any circumstances. Without a salary cap, the popular teams get more popular while the lesser teams become less popular and continue to lose their fanbase outside of the immediate area..

Then you have teams like you mention in #4 that spend little but still make millions only because they are located in a decent region. I dunno what you can do about both; both are an issue. You definitely can't do much about owners not caring about winning.. IF that is how an owner wants to run a team, nobody really has to right to tell him to spend more. As long as he makes money for the NBA, the NBAPA and NBA won't say anything about it. Now something can be done about #2 though; try to keep the teams from not going too far past the cap.

Unfortunately, you know that teams with deep pockets like the Mavs and Lakers, Knicks and Nets, etc will still have high spending even with raised luxury tax. I don't think raising the luxury taxes is the solution; it would be arguably counter-productive and only hurt the less advantaged teams like the Bobcats, T-Wolves, Cavs, etc with not as deep pockets. They wouldn't have the deep pockets to go too much past the cap..

Quote:
3. I didn't like the player collusion bet James, Bosh and Wade last summer. I know they want to win but its just unfair that they get away with it while the owners are not allowed to do it. I also can't believe that a player like Udonis Haslem would just reject Dallas lucrative offer and remain in Miami. I don't know any solution except more indepth investigation on what is happening.

As you say, all you can really do is an in-depth investigation. But even if you find out that LeBron/Bosh/Wade broke CBA rules, what would the NBA do anyways? Tell LeBron to go back to Cavs? Of course that wouldn't happen, but outside of fining LeBron, what can you do? Almost like getting revenge on a arsonist; revenge doesn't help anybody. Revenge wouldn't bring your burnt down million dollar house back.. You know you lost your home no matter what and it isn't coming back even if you burn down the arsonist's own house in revenge. Hopefully this example makes some sense to you and you get my point.


*http://content.usatoday.com/sportsda.../salaries/team
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