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Old 01-22-2011, 03:40 PM   #16
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Default Re: The CBA, Contraction and summer of 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by gts
who's talking about a new league bladefd? you brought up temporary games during a lockout... i responded now you're running off like i'm trying to build a new basketball league...lol enough already

I dunno, I didn't bring up that the players would easily be able to start up a new league. Just said that the owners wouldn't have a hard time bringing in temporary replacements if the negotiations didn't work out with the NBAPA. You responded by saying that the players can go easily create a new league as well and they would be able to get away with charging $25 per ticket; I responded by saying why it isn't realistic that it can 'easily' be done. It is tougher and expensive to create a new league from the ground up even with guys like LeBron/Kobe/etc than to throw in a bunch of halfway decent temp replacements into a league with the infrastructure already in place. I dunno what you are trying to say with "enough already".. I won't say anything else because I don't want to sound hostile so I will leave it at that.

Last edited by bladefd : 01-22-2011 at 03:43 PM.
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Old 01-22-2011, 07:21 PM   #17
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Default Re: The CBA, Contraction and summer of 2011

i think the cap is actually what makes it possible to have several stars on one team. without it, free market would dictate that the best players would be paid huge sums of money by someone and the room for additional players just wouldn't be there. part of the problem is that owners bid against each other without thinking about the long term prospects... if amir johnson is getting 30 million with a cap, imagine how much lebron would get without one...

and as for contraction, it might be necessary imo. one reason the owners might not be realizing the profits they'd like at this point is that it was really profitable to create expansion teams, but now that they aren't self sustaining, they are a drain. to penalize players for that kind of short sightedness is silly... the players would in essence be subsidizing the owners

i'm sure i'm wrong somewhere in there... in fact the whole thing is so complex it's just harrowing
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:00 PM   #18
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Default Re: The CBA, Contraction and summer of 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by SourGrapes
i think the cap is actually what makes it possible to have several stars on one team. without it, free market would dictate that the best players would be paid huge sums of money by someone and the room for additional players just wouldn't be there. part of the problem is that owners bid against each other without thinking about the long term prospects... if amir johnson is getting 30 million with a cap, imagine how much lebron would get without one...

and as for contraction, it might be necessary imo. one reason the owners might not be realizing the profits they'd like at this point is that it was really profitable to create expansion teams, but now that they aren't self sustaining, they are a drain. to penalize players for that kind of short sightedness is silly... the players would in essence be subsidizing the owners

i'm sure i'm wrong somewhere in there... in fact the whole thing is so complex it's just harrowing
i don't mind contraction on maybe 2 teams... it might help financially, i'm not up on how the revenue is dispersed throughout the league, i know the owners have discussed a true revenue sharing system but if they do that i'd bet they lose the tax rate on teams over the upper cap limit... since those funds are now distributed to the teams below the cap..
to me you have to have some kind of tool that makes putting a crap team on the floor work against the ownership yet not punish teams that are truly having a rough go of it... maybe something based on market size/population
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Old 01-24-2011, 12:10 PM   #19
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Default Re: The CBA, Contraction and summer of 2011

Here's a Timeline for the last lockout to reference as this summer looms....

Quote:
NBA Lockout Chronology


Posted: Wednesday January 06, 1999 12:20 PM

Oct. 27, 1994 -- Owners and players agree to play the 1994-95 season under a no-strike, no-lockout agreement.

June 21, 1995 -- Owners and the players' union reach agreement on a six-year deal including a luxury tax of up to 100 percent on certain large contracts if the percentage of basketball-related income devoted to player salaries exceeds 63 percent.

July 1, 1995 -- Owners impose a lockout after players refuse to vote on ratification of the new deal.

Aug. 8, 1995 -- Owners and players reach a new agreement, deleting the luxury tax in exchange for a reopener clause giving the owners the right to toss out the agreement after three years if the percentage of basketball-related income devoted to player salaries exceeds 51.8 percent.

Sept. 12, 1995 -- Players vote 226-134 to accept the new six-year agreement rather than decertify their union, and the lockout ends.

July 1, 1996 -- A moratorium on player signings is imposed as the sides work to finalize details of the six-year pact.

July 11, 1996 -- A lockout is imposed as the sides argue over $50 million in television revenue. The lockout is lifted after a couple of hours, and the agreement is completed.

March 23, 1998 -- Owners vote 27-2 to reopen the collective bargaining agreement at the conclusion of the season.

June 22, 1998 -- The last of nine in-season negotiating sessions ends after only 30 minutes, with the players saying they won't listen to any proposal that includes a "hard" salary cap.

June 30, 1998 -- League announces a lockout will begin the next day. Union files grievance with arbitrator John Feerick, asking that players with guaranteed contracts be paid during the lockout.

July 1, 1998 -- Owners impose the third lockout in league history.

Aug. 6, 1998 -- Collective bargaining talks resume, and owners walk out upon hearing the union's new proposal.

Aug. 26-Sept. 9, 1998 -- Guaranteed contracts hearing held before Feerick.

Sept. 24, 1998 -- League cancels 24 exhibition games and announces the indefinite postponement of training camps.

Oct. 5, 1998 -- League cancels remainder of exhibition season.

Oct. 8, 1998 -- Sides meet for about 4 1/2 hours, making little progress, and the first two weeks of the season are canceled.

Oct. 13, 1998 -- Sides meet for several hours, making no progress.

Oct. 20, 1998 -- Feerick ruled in favor of owners, saying they do not have to pay off guaranteed contracts during the lockout.

Oct. 28, 1998 -- After a meeting of the full union membership at which the owners were invited to speak, the sides meet past midnight but fail to reach an agreement.

Nov. 6, 1998 -- At a 1 1/2 hour-meeting, the union fails to give the owners a new proposal as promised.

Nov. 20 -- The sides meet for 13 hours and admit for the first time that they've made substantial progress.

Nov. 25 -- Union says it misunderstood a key aspect of owners' Nov. 20 proposal.

Dec. 4 -- Sides meet for 11 hours, after which commissioner David Stern says it is more likely than not that there won't be a season.

Dec. 23 -- Stern and players' union head Billy Hunter meet for five hours in Los Angeles at the office of agent Leonard Armato.

Dec. 27 -- Sides meet for five hours in Denver, with the league making its "final" proposal.

Jan. 4 -- Union presents its "final" offer to owners, and Stern says league might use replacement players in the 1999-2000 season.

Jan. 5 -- NBA players begin arriving in New York on the eve of a scheduled vote by the union membership on whether to support the negotiating committee's rejection of the league's last proposal.

Jan. 6 -- After a secret, all-night negotiating session, Stern and Hunter reach agreement to end the lockout the day before the league's "drop dead" date to cancel the season.

http://cgi.cnnsi.com/basketball/nba/...ut_chronology/
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Old 01-24-2011, 01:26 PM   #20
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Default Re: The CBA, Contraction and summer of 2011

GUYS!!!!!!! These have to be the most intelligent posts in ISH history......I'm very impressed

I'm afraid to ruin it.....lol.

Bladefd......are you in law school???? If not you should be.


I'm a No Cap guy......I don't see much sense in it. Has it produced parity
There are the genius teams who KNOW how to win.....how to put it all together.....Lakers, Celtics, Spurs.......these teams are more concerned about winning than keeping a small budget.
Celtics and Lakers Have won more than half of all Championships.......most NBA teams have 1 or none.
Other teams are just in it for the buck.....so cap or no cap, they are not going to spend money.
The baseball example that was given was interesting because the low $ Rangers made it to the World Series and the low $ Padres should have made the playoffs.....amazing choke job there...lol. Giants....who won it all had the 9th highest payroll while Rangers were 26th of 30.
Baseball's dynamics are entirely different than basketball....so it really doesn't match a basketball discussion.

The big difference between a basketball lockout of today compared to other years is the influence of ESPN.........The Sports network runs all......if there was no NBA they would pay big bucks for pickup type games with NBA stars....Arenas would be no problem since you could use many venues with no NBA ties.....venues that hold huge crowds.......Texas Stadium? Locally we have the Sports Arena, Pond, CBB Arena in Ontario,........and then there's Las Vegas.......these places could sell per game naming rights, among other things. We're not talking NBA money here...but still there is a ton to be made......They could spice things up pre game with dunk contests.....in game gimmicks like 4 point spots.......Hey....NBA stole the 3pt line from the ABA......for those who don't know the history of the ABA.....you should read up on it, had there been an ESPN around then it would've worked.
A portion of the revenue could be held to help out lesser players.
Once the lockout ended, life would return to normal immediately.
This would take much of the power out of the owners hands.

I'm not in favor of non guaranteed contracts.....the NFL has really abused the system with that.

I really don't care about contraction one way or the other......however a somewhat funny thought struck me......what if they got rid of the teams who are always at the top.....it'd be a real free for all......lol.......diehard Lakers fan here....of course i'm kidding.
Hope I didn't muck this up too badly.
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Old 01-24-2011, 01:52 PM   #21
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Default Re: The CBA, Contraction and summer of 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKLaker
There are the genius teams who KNOW how to win
I know this point is directed at the cap rules but it also is big in the contraction argument.. people say contraction is good that it would help the smaller market teams by making more talent available and the league would be less watered down.. my belief is that it would work for maybe 3 years...

i think the top tier teams would find a way to get a hold of the talent through trades or free agency within a couple years, smaller market or poorly run teams are not going to change their ways they'll find ways to save money or screw up deals and the elite teams like the lakers and teams like them who are at the top for a reason will just get richer in talent, closing down teams actually plays into their hands by creating less teams for the talent to be dispersed too... closing down teams does not suddenly make donald sterling a great owner, it just gives him more things to screw up
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Old 01-24-2011, 02:05 PM   #22
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Default Re: The CBA, Contraction and summer of 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by gts
I know this point is directed at the cap rules but it also is big in the contraction argument.. people say contraction is good that it would help the smaller market teams by making more talent available and the league would be less watered down.. my belief is that it would work for maybe 3 years...

i think the top tier teams would find a way to get a hold of the talent through trades or free agency within a couple years, smaller market or poorly run teams are not going to change their ways they'll find ways to save money or screw up deals and the elite teams like the lakers and teams like them who are at the top for a reason will just get richer in talent, closing down teams actually plays into their hands by creating less teams for the talent to be dispersed too... closing down teams does not suddenly make donald sterling a great owner, it just gives him more things to screw up

EXACTLY
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Old 01-24-2011, 02:43 PM   #23
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Default Re: The CBA, Contraction and summer of 2011

Man, Im gonna re-read all your guys posts, very interesting.

Contraction, Im against it at all costs. Cities/states need teams for income, don't get it mixed up, these NBA teams are pulling in some loot. Just because their teams suck and attendance sucks, they are raking in $ from advertising and marketing that all doesn't get factored into the teams "profit". I think that is balogna how the NBA is losing money, financial figures are manipulated everyday. I bet if Stern came and said the bottom 3 teams get dropped, every team would be able to show a good profit margin.

Salary cap is pretty much useless as it is. Teams pay the luxury tax and it isn't deterring teams from adding players. I would suggest a higher tax line, maybe like 30 million over the salary cap, and anything over the tax limit is a $2 tax for every $1 spent over the line. So if the Lakers are 5 million over the tax, they pay 10 million to the league.

I want the NBA limit to be bumped to 16 or 17 players. With all the injuries and development of young players it is imperative to add guys.

Let HSers come in straight after HS.

Franchise tags should be the average salary of top 3 paid guys in the L, and can only be used once on a single player in the span of 5 yrs (per team). But must eliminate the "qualifying offer" on rookie deals.

Rookie deals should be the same as now, minus the Qualifying offer which is hindering guys like David Lee to get the money they deserve when they deserve it.

Non-guaranteed deals should be negotiated by the team and the player, just like now.

There needs to be a way to limit guys demanding trades, this is terrible. Maybe if a player demands to be traded, the team can void his deal? Not the best thing because a guy like Melo would never have that happen, but there needs to be some consequences.

Sign and Trade deals need to have a lower raise rate per year. Lebron got the same money from Miami because of S&T, that shouldn't happen.
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Old 01-24-2011, 03:27 PM   #24
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Default Re: The CBA, Contraction and summer of 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crown&Coke
Rookie deals should be the same as now, minus the Qualifying offer which is hindering guys like David Lee to get the money they deserve when they deserve it.
the qualifying offer is pro player..
without the QO teams would just wait to see what kind of offer the player who is restricted gets and match the competing teams offer.. this forces a team to make an offer on the player before he hits the market remember for every david lee there's a pile of jordan farmar's that need looking out for.

at the same time teams have to have a tool to protect their interests.. you draft a player spend the few years developing his talent it would be a bad thing for the league/teams to not be able to protect that investment... without some system in place small market teams would just become developmental teams for the big teams with unlimited budgets...

also remember it was the NBAPA that pushed for rookie scale contract structure to protect the vets after rookie glenn robinson was given a 10 year contract by the bucks in the mid 90's even though he was unproven in the nba

Last edited by gts : 01-24-2011 at 04:00 PM.
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Old 01-24-2011, 05:40 PM   #25
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Default Re: The CBA, Contraction and summer of 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by gts
the qualifying offer is pro player..

I see your point, and it is a good one.

Then maybe change the time allowed for the team to match. A lot of teams refuse to offer deals to RFA because it locks up their money for 7 days, even if they player doesn't end up playing with them the next year. That is valuable time as the free agent pools tends to dry up fast.

Change it to 3 days maybe?

Anyone know whether players will try to get a voice in the (future) new rules? Are they given a vote on the rules committee? I think its only owners.

The players should also have a vote in the punishments, like fines and techs.
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Old 01-24-2011, 05:53 PM   #26
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Default Re: The CBA, Contraction and summer of 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crown&Coke
I see your point, and it is a good one.

Then maybe change the time allowed for the team to match. A lot of teams refuse to offer deals to RFA because it locks up their money for 7 days, even if they player doesn't end up playing with them the next year. That is valuable time as the free agent pools tends to dry up fast.

Change it to 3 days maybe?

Anyone know whether players will try to get a voice in the (future) new rules? Are they given a vote on the rules committee? I think its only owners.

The players should also have a vote in the punishments, like fines and techs.
something in there... tweak the system a bit to allow for the guys that are clearly head and shoulders above the rest maybe a new classification like rookie bird rights which allow for longer bigger contracts coming off their 2nd years...

players get a voice in the talks, player reps will be involved and any offer is subject to a majority player approval vote...

as for the rules on the court i don't think so although the players association has made their feelings heard in the past on rules or changes to the game... it was the players association that forced the nba to revert to the old ball when the league tried to replace it with the synthetic one a couple years ago
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Old 01-24-2011, 06:19 PM   #27
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Default Re: The CBA, Contraction and summer of 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by gts
something in there... tweak the system a bit to allow for the guys that are clearly head and shoulders above the rest maybe a new classification like rookie bird rights which allow for longer bigger contracts coming off their 2nd years...

players get a voice in the talks, player reps will be involved and any offer is subject to a majority player approval vote...

as for the rules on the court i don't think so although the players association has made their feelings heard in the past on rules or changes to the game... it was the players association that forced the nba to revert to the old ball when the league tried to replace it with the synthetic one a couple years ago

Yea, thats a good idea. Teams get to dump players in their 3rd and 4th years if they want to, why not allow the players to have similar type options? Maybe the 4th year is a mutual option? Both the player and the team must agree to it. Or some sort way to be able to opt out if certain incentives are met? As of now, the only bargaining the players get is up to the 120% of their rookie scale.

Good info on the other two, i remember the ball debate, some guys were getting cuts on their fingers and the ball wasn't bouncing normally.
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Old 02-12-2011, 03:51 PM   #28
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Default Re: The CBA, Contraction and summer of 2011

here's an article on the NFL's Situation written by a sports law professor, much of it echoes the NBA and it's coming negotiations

http://www.law.tulane.edu/uploadedfi..._Issues_P1.pdf
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