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Old 01-08-2011, 03:07 AM   #1
Kblaze8855
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Default If you didnt know his age and watched 2005 Nash and current Nash...

...what would you say he has lost? Other than Amare, Joe Johnson, and Marion I mean....

Really. What skill does he now lack? Is he much less athletic? Im not seeing it. He was never all that athletic. He might be a step slower. But hes essentially the same player. The only reason to assume hes worse is age. Not his ability. Hes showing no less of it. He won the MVP putting up 15.5/12. 50/43/89 shooting. Last year he was at 17/11. 51/43/94. Now hes at 17/11(in the lowest minutes hes played since 2000). 53/40/90. Im not saying that proves hes the same player. But I see the same floaters...wicked jumper. Hes not a less capable passer. Defense might actually be better at times. Its at least not worse. His handles have not declined a bit. He finds anyone open, makes the circus shots, wets every open look, and all that.

What is he worse at in fact? Hes worse in theory...hes older. He should be worse I guess. But I see no evidence of it. At least no evidence of a decline in ability to match the decline in his standing.

Does anyone here honestly believe that if you give him right now....young Amare, prime Marion, and Joe Johnson he couldnt be considered the best point again? That he couldnt win a lot of games?

Anyone think that he, peak Marion, Raja, pre fat Diaw, Barbosa in good form, Eddie House gunning...all those guys...he couldnt win some games? People play up the 06 season at times but...they won the same number of games the Blazers did a couple years ago. Not an outstanding number of wins. One more than the Jazz last year. Same number the Bulls are on pace for. Good record. Not incredible. They beat a .500 Laker team and the I think...46(?) win clippers. And took 7 games to do both. I think current Nash could pull that off.

What is the big difference between 05 Nash and right now Nash if not who he is playing with?

Im sure even those who dont remember the old arguments can sense a slightly undercover desire to rip the guy but...I dont know if I actually want to.

While I believe he was somewhat overrated at the time he was getting MVPs and was never a Kobe/Lebron/Wade/Duncan/Shaq/KG level player....and argued long periods of times about what that meant....ive since softened on him. Partly because of a little qualifier often added when people said they voted for him for MVP...

It was often said "I know hes not the best player in the league but...."

At the time that wasnt enough for me to overlook the absurdity of a guy who just months earlier wasnt even considered that good being given MVP votes. In 04 Nash wasnt even an all star. The fans chose Steve Francis and Kobe...and the coaches chose Sam Cassell and then extras in AK47 and Brad Miller(last couple guys are any position I believe)...over Nash.

So at the time I hated the idea that a guy everyone knew wasnt in the running for best player still got the MVP. But since then the fact that literally every single player he was clearly inferior to at the time have accomplished more than him(Wade and Shaq won it all...Kobe won it twice...Duncan twice..Lebron and Dirk had more playoff success with worse talent to get it)....

It kinda hammers home that old point. But its kinda overlooked because Nash is getting old. But it brings me back to the start...

Name something he is clearly worse at doing. Amd whatever it is....is it the difference between back to back MVP....and an also ran in the talk for best point guard?

When he got to the Suns he was already like 30....nobody learns enough in 3 months to go from top 20-30 to back to back MVP. The turnaround of the suns is of course the reason he won but...I dont think them being good was as hard to expect as its been made out.

I predicted they would be a 5-6th seed that year and plenty of people at least had them as a playoff team or near it. My prediction would have landed them in the 50-52 win range which was a 20+ game bump. Nobody expected a team with Amare, Marion, JJ, and so on....and a pretty good point to just totally suck. But once they became good people pretended that everyone thought they would be terrible as an excuse to give a guy they didnt even think was that good the MVP.

Anyway...

As much as this looks like a "Nash is overrated" thing I think id call it...Nash was overrated...but now?

Hes probably underrated.

In fact...take out the probably.

Steve Nash is underrated as hell. Hes no less talented than he was 3-4 years ago. Westbrook, rondo, Deron, Paul, and Rose...all might get ranked over him right now. None of them make the Suns good. I dont buy that any of their teams would have a much worse record with him. But because he went from godly talent to just...some guys to play with...hes disregarded.

It makes as little sense as when he went to a perfect situation and was suddenly considered god...at 30.

Give current Nash 05 Nashs team the Suns win the same 60-65 games. Lose when it matters...but thats part of the deal when you build a team that suits Nash(finishers and shooters...running...with a guy like Nash up top? Not a recipe for good D).

Im not sure anyone in my lifetime has done more to point out the foolishness of the way the general public ranks players. Nash has lost the new flavor appeal he had going(at...30). And added to it hes on a poor team. So he went from media darling, fan loved, MVP to...

Not mentioned at all?

Im not sure anyone has ever been as over...and under rated...as Nash has managed in his career. Id say from 02-04 he was crazy crazy underrated(by me as well). 05-08 he was overrated...and now hes back to underrated.

And hes been talent wise...pretty much the same guy for like 8 years.

Im not sure that he isnt currently more underrated...than he was overrated a few years ago.

He has perhaps never been properly rated.

There is always something that throws him off. For a while he was with Dirk and Finley getting overshadowed. Had NVE with him for a minute. Then Antione being something of a point...center. while he wasnt getting much love as one of 5 all stars. Then hes in the best position to shine a PG has been in in a long time. Now hes got that "Dudes falling off..." combo of age and a bad team making people care about him less.

I hope he doesnt end his career like this. As annoyed as I was watching him win MVPs while guys like Kobe, Lebron, duncan, Wade, KG, and so on were just flat out more complete...better...players? I hate to see guys go out like this.

Hes got too much left, hes never been anything but classy, hes on a short list of guys I actually believe when they downplay themselves, hes excting, he plays beautiful basketball on offense, hes the kind of player the game needs more of really....

And he just seems like a nice guy.

Nobody really hates Steve Nash. Hes got people who like to see him fail...but its not because of him.

I think now that hes an afterthought id actually like to see him get a ring. before hes a role player if possible. Not one of those Mitch Richmond technically being on the Lakers when they won in 02 rings.

Hes still good enough to be the key difference between a pretty good team and a title team if hes not built around him(meaning..it plays winning ball when he arrives...). Nash dropped onto a capable defensive team with some stars would be a problem.

I hope he gets his shot before its too late. Luckily he will probably be the same player for a while...

He isnt the type to fall off suddenly even if he is 37.

And I think ive got most of the annoyance out of my system. Im ready to root for the guy again. Kinda like I did Reggie at the end. But Reggie was a dick for most of his career. Nash?

Never did a thing to justify personally disliking him. And the people making him out to be god have shut the **** up so...no reason to want him to fail at this point.

Im rooting for him from here on out.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:09 AM   #2
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Default Re: If you didnt know his age and watched 2005 Nash and current Nash...

What good is a great passing PG with nobody to pass it to? He got everyone great looks tonight. WIDE open looks everywhere from the 3-point line to right under the basket. They're just not good.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:11 AM   #3
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Default Re: If you didnt know his age and watched 2005 Nash and current Nash...

Nash is awesome. I also would like to see Grant Hill somehow go to the Celtics this season.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:14 AM   #4
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Default Re: If you didnt know his age and watched 2005 Nash and current Nash...

He's quite a bit worse. His stats might be as good in the regular season but he definitely isn't ever going to average 24-12 in the playoffs again. Everything has just declined a bit, except for his ability to finish around the rim, which has always been top tier.

Last edited by magnax1 : 01-08-2011 at 03:18 AM.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:16 AM   #5
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Default Re: If you didnt know his age and watched 2005 Nash and current Nash...

big post mayne
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:17 AM   #6
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Default Re: If you didnt know his age and watched 2005 Nash and current Nash...

didnotreadlol.gif

cliffnote that if you want more responses
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:19 AM   #7
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Default Re: If you didnt know his age and watched 2005 Nash and current Nash...

He hasnt lost anything aside from his weapons. I dont think there is any question that Steve Nash is the best PG of the 2000s decade. Yes, I rank him above Kidd...
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:21 AM   #8
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Default Re: If you didnt know his age and watched 2005 Nash and current Nash...

Everything declined a bit? Everything like what? You think he cant shoot as well? You think he lost some court vision? Have his handles regressed?

This is kinda what im talking about. Its said that he is worse....but worse at what to be specific?

When Payton fell off...there were obvious massive differences. Same for Kidd. Kidd cant slash anymore, is like....8 steps slower, his post up game seems all but gone or at least unused.

Nash is like Stockton. Hes not exactly worse at anything at 37 than at 30. Just a very different situation. Nash has maintained the same basic level of skills he was like....26?

And the only person I remember being on record about how good he was in Dallas was Bill Walton. I have a tape of a Mavs/Pacers game from 2002 or 2003 with Walton saying Nash is his MVP and getting laughed out of the studio.

Dude has been a monster skills wise for over a decade. I dont buy for a second that he would fail to get a ball anywhere now...that he could have gotten it 5 years ago. I just dont see any evidence of it.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:23 AM   #9
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Default Re: If you didnt know his age and watched 2005 Nash and current Nash...

He obviously drinks the blood of virgins.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:27 AM   #10
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Default Re: If you didnt know his age and watched 2005 Nash and current Nash...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Everything declined a bit? Everything like what? You think he cant shoot as well? You think he lost some court vision? Have his handles regressed?

This is kinda what im talking about. Its said that he is worse....but worse at what to be specific?

When Payton fell off...there were obvious massive differences. Same for Kidd. Kidd cant slash anymore, is like....8 steps slower, his post up game seems all but gone or at least unused.

Nash is like Stockton. Hes not exactly worse at anything at 37 than at 30. Just a very different situation. Nash has maintained the same basic level of skills he was like....26?

And the only person I remember being on record about how good he was in Dallas was Bill Walton. I have a tape of a Mavs/Pacers game from 2002 or 2003 with Walton saying Nash is his MVP and getting laughed out of the studio.

Dude has been a monster skills wise for over a decade. I dont buy for a second that he would fail to get a ball anywhere now...that he could have gotten it 5 years ago. I just dont see any evidence of it.
More then anything, his stamina has really dropped off. He's a bit slower, not much, and not quite as good of a shooter from 3 and long 2s, but mostly he just can't keep up with a 2005 nonstop running offense for 40 minutes.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:30 AM   #11
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Default Re: If you didnt know his age and watched 2005 Nash and current Nash...

Quote:
didnotreadlol.gif

cliffnote that if you want more responses

Im good. Ive been seeing similar comments for damn near 10 years.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:33 AM   #12
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Default Re: If you didnt know his age and watched 2005 Nash and current Nash...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Everything declined a bit? Everything like what? You think he cant shoot as well? You think he lost some court vision? Have his handles regressed?

This is kinda what im talking about. Its said that he is worse....but worse at what to be specific?

When Payton fell off...there were obvious massive differences. Same for Kidd. Kidd cant slash anymore, is like....8 steps slower, his post up game seems all but gone or at least unused.

Nash is like Stockton. Hes not exactly worse at anything at 37 than at 30. Just a very different situation. Nash has maintained the same basic level of skills he was like....26?

And the only person I remember being on record about how good he was in Dallas was Bill Walton. I have a tape of a Mavs/Pacers game from 2002 or 2003 with Walton saying Nash is his MVP and getting laughed out of the studio.

Dude has been a monster skills wise for over a decade. I dont buy for a second that he would fail to get a ball anywhere now...that he could have gotten it 5 years ago. I just dont see any evidence of it.
Who do you think was the PG of the 2000's decade? If you read my post, I said Nash. Tell me what you think.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:36 AM   #13
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Default Re: If you didnt know his age and watched 2005 Nash and current Nash...

Stamina is about the only thing id buy being worse....but really..

People were saying he didnt have stamina in Dallas. I remember it clearly. When Mavs fans were talking about why he wouldnt be all that missed and Dampier would fill a hole. Talked about how he would always slow down towards the end of the season and how he was getting older and how signing a 29-30 year old who already breaks down by the playoffs to a longterm deal was stupid.

Nash has been getting slower in the eyes of fans since 2004....

There is not a single thing to say about him th nobody said in 2004.

One of you other longtimers....you remember that?

Mavs fans saying he had no stamina and wasnt that good at seasons end because he was getting older?


Im not sure it isnt just looking worse because of worse results. If he plays 33 minutes on a 60 win team nobody cares that his minutes are kept low as hell.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:37 AM   #14
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Default Re: If you didnt know his age and watched 2005 Nash and current Nash...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Im good. Ive been seeing similar comments for damn near 10 years.

nice post.

my thoughts:

nash was over-rated only in terms of the credit he was getting. he was a great player for the suns and was one of the best players in the league. he just wasn't as good as a back to back mvp should be. and it got the average fan talking up nash and taking him to a level that he didn't belong on.

the only thing that has declined for nash in my opinion in his defense. and not by a ton....and really i don't know if that even impacts anything because he was always a truly terrible defender.

but regardless. he looks even worse now and he cheats a lot more and goes under way way way too many screens (as evidenced tonight against felton). but again...nash playing horrid defense is really nothing new.

he's under-rated probably now because his impact could be as good as some of those pg's you list if he was in the right situation. put nash on the magic instead of jameer and i guarantee you that people would be talking about him in terms of best pg in the game again. he'd have howard to clean up all his defensive problems and he'd have shooter/scorers all over the floor.

i really hope he gets one more chance at a title somewhere. i hate seeing players still playing at a high level end their careers on poor teams.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:39 AM   #15
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Default Re: If you didnt know his age and watched 2005 Nash and current Nash...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Stamina is about the only thing id buy being worse....but really..

People were saying he didnt have stamina in Dallas. I remember it clearly. When Mavs fans were talking about why he wouldnt be all that missed and Dampier would fill a hole. Talked about how he would always slow down towards the end of the season and how he was getting older and how signing a 29-30 year old who already breaks down by the playoffs to a longterm deal was stupid.

Nash has been getting slower in the eyes of fans since 2004....

There is not a single thing to say about him th nobody said in 2004.

One of you other longtimers....you remember that?

Mavs fans saying he had no stamina and wasnt that good at seasons end because he was getting older?


Im not sure it isnt just looking worse because of worse results. If he plays 33 minutes on a 60 win team nobody cares that his minutes are kept low as hell.

yep.

i'm a huge mavs fan and full supported getting rid of him. still probably would, but the nash that emerged in phoenix was not the nash from dallas.

nash looked old and tired in dallas and there was talk that he only had a couple good years left.
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