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Old 02-08-2011, 07:12 AM   #1
dak121
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Default How does a professional basketball player not score a single point in 20 minutes?

I know its been said hundreds of times but Bogans is at a level of his own when it comes to futility.

They can grab guys from the local YMCA to do what he 'tries' to do every game. Any random scrub from the street can play his ass off on defense (while still being torched by the opposing SG) and do absolutely nothing on offense.

Just being a tryer is not good enough for an NBA team. Fortunately the trade deadline is coming up and I know a move is going to happen.

Just a few more weeks of being Bogan'd.
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Old 02-08-2011, 08:17 AM   #2
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Default Re: How does a professional basketball player not score a single point in 20 minutes?

What I want to know is, where is THIS Keith Bogans.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=301111004
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Old 02-08-2011, 11:01 AM   #3
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Default Re: How does a professional basketball player not score a single point in 20 minutes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystallas
What I want to know is, where is THIS Keith Bogans.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=301111004



That has to be a screen error, 14 points?? 6 steals This shows he was productive, sure this was him?
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Old 02-08-2011, 10:27 PM   #4
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Default Re: How does a professional basketball player not score a single point in 20 minutes?

Thank you Dak for coming on here and being honest despite the fact that we've all talked about it hundreds of times like you said because I appreciate it.

It just simply isn't good enough and with the rest of the guys on this team we deserve better. If we want to make REAL noise in the playoffs we're going to need an upgrage or a change of some sort. Point blank and simple.

I'm not going to sit around and act like a casual fan who could care less.

I hate the fact that Bogans even sees the floor so i'm not going to rest on that fact. I will continue to complain until the man is out of the rotation.
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Old 02-10-2011, 11:30 AM   #5
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Default Re: How does a professional basketball player not score a single point in 20 minutes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ljsbb27
Thank you Dak for coming on here and being honest despite the fact that we've all talked about it hundreds of times like you said because I appreciate it.

It just simply isn't good enough and with the rest of the guys on this team we deserve better. If we want to make REAL noise in the playoffs we're going to need an upgrage or a change of some sort. Point blank and simple.

I'm not going to sit around and act like a casual fan who could care less.

I hate the fact that Bogans even sees the floor so i'm not going to rest on that fact. I will continue to complain until the man is out of the rotation.

I along with many fans here have been clamoring for the Bulls MGT to make a move to be a LEGIT SG starter but Im not sure I agree with you that Bogans should not play ANY mins.
YOu know the irony was, I had reservations about him the first time I heard them signed Keith but you along with some fans here were pretty positive about the acquisition albeit you projected him to play back up eventho he is actually just playing about 18 mins/game.
Last 5 games he has hit 7 of 16 3pt shots.Currently, he is hitting a decent 34.4% from the 3pt line. He also plays tough defense with pretty good basketball sense, rotating, passing to the open man etc.
But again don't get me wrong, everytime the Bulls lose, I try to console myself imagining that Forman and Pax would be on their phones trying to acquire a LEGIT SG starter who can play defense, a player like Courtney Lee

Last edited by tamaraw08 : 02-10-2011 at 11:32 AM.
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Old 02-10-2011, 12:13 PM   #6
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Default Re: How does a professional basketball player not score a single point in 20 minutes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dak121
I know its been said hundreds of times but Bogans is at a level of his own when it comes to futility.

They can grab guys from the local YMCA to do what he 'tries' to do every game. Any random scrub from the street can play his ass off on defense (while still being torched by the opposing SG) and do absolutely nothing on offense.

Just being a tryer is not good enough for an NBA team. Fortunately the trade deadline is coming up and I know a move is going to happen.

Just a few more weeks of being Bogan'd.


It's honestly not AS bad as many Bulls fans make it seem. Thibodeau clearly values his veteran presence. There must be something intangible there that our coach likes. Plus, he IS only averaging like 16-18 minutes.

Of course I would love to see us make a move before the trade deadline for that 2-spot. But think about this : even with the "Luke Walton" of 2-guards in our line-up, and the injuries to our big men this season, we're still on pace to finish in the top 3 seed this year. We still have yet to have a fully healthy line-up for more than a couple games. In that respect, I can see why the Bulls organization aren't panicking yet.
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Old 02-10-2011, 03:24 PM   #7
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Default Re: How does a professional basketball player not score a single point in 20 minutes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellogs4toniee
It's honestly not AS bad as many Bulls fans make it seem. Thibodeau clearly values his veteran presence. There must be something intangible there that our coach likes. Plus, he IS only averaging like 16-18 minutes.

Of course I would love to see us make a move before the trade deadline for that 2-spot. But think about this : even with the "Luke Walton" of 2-guards in our line-up, and the injuries to our big men this season, we're still on pace to finish in the top 3 seed this year. We still have yet to have a fully healthy line-up for more than a couple games. In that respect, I can see why the Bulls organization aren't panicking yet.
The only intangible thing about Keith Bogans is a reason for why he's a starter still
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Old 02-10-2011, 04:38 PM   #8
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Default Re: How does a professional basketball player not score a single point in 20 minutes?

Doesn't he usually play with Rose, Boozer, Deng, and Thomas/Gibson? There's plenty of offense out there when he's playing. A team doesn't actually need 5 legit scorers on the floor at once guys. Bogans entire job on offense is pretty much to be a passing hub to move the ball across the court, or to decoy on the arc to space the paint. . .and rarely to actually shoot a corner three. 5 scorers at once isn't neccessary.

He doesn't even play 20 minutes a game either, he's just there to eat up minutes and defend while the main guys on the other team get tired. Then we put in Brewer and he works on the tired guys/second unit more easily.

We could upgrade, but relax guys, it's not like he's a negative presence. It's not like he's going out there bricking 10 shots a game and giving up points on defense. You realize, a horrible defensive player that scores 10-15 a game could be worse than Bogans? If he's helping hold down points on the other end, and NOT screwing up the offense with turnovers and bricks, then he's not actually harming the offense while providing on defense. . making him a positive presence on the floor. Even if it's not interesting to watch.
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Old 02-10-2011, 06:13 PM   #9
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Default Re: How does a professional basketball player not score a single point in 20 minutes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinJackal
Doesn't he usually play with Rose, Boozer, Deng, and Thomas/Gibson? There's plenty of offense out there when he's playing. A team doesn't actually need 5 legit scorers on the floor at once guys. Bogans entire job on offense is pretty much to be a passing hub to move the ball across the court, or to decoy on the arc to space the paint. . .and rarely to actually shoot a corner three. 5 scorers at once isn't neccessary.

He doesn't even play 20 minutes a game either, he's just there to eat up minutes and defend while the main guys on the other team get tired. Then we put in Brewer and he works on the tired guys/second unit more easily.

We could upgrade, but relax guys, it's not like he's a negative presence. It's not like he's going out there bricking 10 shots a game and giving up points on defense. You realize, a horrible defensive player that scores 10-15 a game could be worse than Bogans? If he's helping hold down points on the other end, and NOT screwing up the offense with turnovers and bricks, then he's not actually harming the offense while providing on defense. . making him a positive presence on the floor. Even if it's not interesting to watch.

It would be nice if he were actually good at those things. He can't even hit an open corner 3, so nobody even guards him.
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Old 02-10-2011, 06:31 PM   #10
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Default Re: How does a professional basketball player not score a single point in 20 minutes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinJackal
Doesn't he usually play with Rose, Boozer, Deng, and Thomas/Gibson? There's plenty of offense out there when he's playing. A team doesn't actually need 5 legit scorers on the floor at once guys. Bogans entire job on offense is pretty much to be a passing hub to move the ball across the court, or to decoy on the arc to space the paint. . .and rarely to actually shoot a corner three. 5 scorers at once isn't neccessary.

He doesn't even play 20 minutes a game either, he's just there to eat up minutes and defend while the main guys on the other team get tired. Then we put in Brewer and he works on the tired guys/second unit more easily.

We could upgrade, but relax guys, it's not like he's a negative presence. It's not like he's going out there bricking 10 shots a game and giving up points on defense. You realize, a horrible defensive player that scores 10-15 a game could be worse than Bogans? If he's helping hold down points on the other end, and NOT screwing up the offense with turnovers and bricks, then he's not actually harming the offense while providing on defense. . making him a positive presence on the floor. Even if it's not interesting to watch.
What other CONTENDING team has a player that is "just there to be a passing hub" in their starting 5?

That's the issue. We shouldn't have to settle for mediocrity, even if it's just 20 minutes a night.

And I haven't seen the vaulted Bogans defense this year. He really doesn't come off to me, watching the game, as better than anyone else on the court. Which he'd NEED to be to merit even those 16 minutes.

At the very LEAST a guy like Lee or Afflalo could give you what Bogans does AND THEN add a good 10 or 15 ppg.
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Old 02-10-2011, 07:05 PM   #11
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Default Re: How does a professional basketball player not score a single point in 20 minutes?

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Originally Posted by jasonresno
What other CONTENDING team has a player that is "just there to be a passing hub" in their starting 5?

That's the issue. We shouldn't have to settle for mediocrity, even if it's just 20 minutes a night.

And I haven't seen the vaulted Bogans defense this year. He really doesn't come off to me, watching the game, as better than anyone else on the court. Which he'd NEED to be to merit even those 16 minutes.

At the very LEAST a guy like Lee or Afflalo could give you what Bogans does AND THEN add a good 10 or 15 ppg.

I was talking about on the offensive end with the part you bolded. Bogans obviously plays defense too. . .which is the main reason he's out there.

Plenty of teams have had guys that play a similar role. The Spurs had Bruce Bowen for the longest time. His offense was a joke. His role was on the defensive end. And I would've taken Bowen over MANY players who were supposed offensive threats, because Bowen's impact was more valube due to his great defensive ability.

Again, it isn't like Bogans is missing tons of shots every game. He only misses two shots a game, and the Bulls' offensive rating with Bogans on the floor is almost the exact same when he isn't on it. The difference is 1 point per 100 possessions.

Which isn't a big difference. The Bulls are statistically not suffering offensively with Bogans on the floor since Bogans, while not great, is not taking nearly as many shots as he'd need to in order to actually to hurt the offense. Again, he only misses two shots a game, and make about 1 1/2 per game. His main job is to defend. On offense, he's a passing hub and to take a wide open shot. . .usually a three.

And for reference, Bogans' eFG% is 1% better than the Bulls as a team collectively. So he's not as bad as you guys are making him out to be. :P He just doesn't have a versetile offensive arsenal, and doesn't score in volume at all.

Edit: Another thing, don't forget either, that players who score more points do so on significantly more shots. Shots which come out of Rose and Boozer's attempts. Noah's going to be getting shots when he gets back. . .what room would there be for a guy like Affalo in terms of shot attempts? Think about it. When you add a player who scores more points, that player is not magically adding more FGAs for your team. Those FGAs basically come out of a pool of FGAs that your team has to divide among itself. Bogans takes 3 shots. This means more shots for Rose and Boozer, which is a good thing.

Last edited by SinJackal : 02-10-2011 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 02-10-2011, 07:30 PM   #12
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Default Re: How does a professional basketball player not score a single point in 20 minutes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinJackal
I was talking about on the offensive end with the part you bolded. Bogans obviously plays defense too. . .which is the main reason he's out there.

Plenty of teams have had guys that play a similar role. The Spurs had Bruce Bowen for the longest time. His offense was a joke. His role was on the defensive end. And I would've taken Bowen over MANY players who were supposed offensive threats, because Bowen's impact was more valube due to his great defensive ability.

Again, it isn't like Bogans is missing tons of shots every game. He only misses two shots a game, and the Bulls' offensive rating with Bogans on the floor is almost the exact same when he isn't on it. The difference is 1 point per 100 possessions.

Which isn't a big difference. The Bulls are statistically not suffering offensively with Bogans on the floor since Bogans, while not great, is not taking nearly as many shots as he'd need to in order to actually to hurt the offense. Again, he only misses two shots a game, and make about 1 1/2 per game. His main job is to defend. On offense, he's a passing hub and to take a wide open shot. . .usually a three.

And for reference, Bogans' eFG% is 1% better than the Bulls as a team collectively. So he's not as bad as you guys are making him out to be. :P He just doesn't have a versetile offensive arsenal, and doesn't score in volume at all.

Edit: Another thing, don't forget either, that players who score more points do so on significantly more shots. Shots which come out of Rose and Boozer's attempts. Noah's going to be getting shots when he gets back. . .what room would there be for a guy like Affalo in terms of shot attempts? Think about it. When you add a player who scores more points, that player is not magically adding more FGAs for your team. Those FGAs basically come out of a pool of FGAs that your team has to divide among itself. Bogans takes 3 shots. This means more shots for Rose and Boozer, which is a good thing.

I don't think Bogans is the same level of defender that Bowen is.

And you're absolutely right in your last paragraph. Something would have to give. But IMO if you put a legit scoring/defending SG like an Aflalo, yes he'll get more FGA and yes they'll come out of Roses attempts BUT that'll stop teams from Ding up as hard on Rose and Booze and probably make all 3 more efficient because of it.
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Old 02-10-2011, 10:14 PM   #13
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Default Re: How does a professional basketball player not score a single point in 20 minutes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonresno
I don't think Bogans is the same level of defender that Bowen is.

And you're absolutely right in your last paragraph. Something would have to give. But IMO if you put a legit scoring/defending SG like an Aflalo, yes he'll get more FGA and yes they'll come out of Roses attempts BUT that'll stop teams from Ding up as hard on Rose and Booze and probably make all 3 more efficient because of it.

Oh, of course not, lol :P Bowen's in a whole different league from Bogans. I was just using Bowen as an example as how a player can score 0 points and make a bigger impact on the game than someone who scores 10-15.

Teams are still going to pile on Rose and Boozer regardless. If Rose has the ball, he can score within a couple of seconds no matter where he is on the floor in the half court. Boozer can score on -ANY- player unless he's double teamed. Even then he still scores on people (like in the Jazz game last night, you might have noticed Boozer was beating double teams, only for a THIRD defender to fly in to get a last second block).

The reason I'm not too choked up about Affalo is because look at late game situations now. Bogans isn't on the floor. It's Boozer, Deng, and Brewer or Korver with Rose. Rose still gets doubled and tripled. Bogans has nothing to do with it.

Bulls right now take about 90 shots a game (including ones where we get fouled and it's not counted as a "FGA"). Afflalo takes 10 shots a game. So that's 10 shots that other Bulls don't get. 3 from Bogans (assuming you want to dump him), and 7 from the rest of the team. Since he's going to be your main SG, he's taking shots away from the guys he's playing with. Rose, Boozer, Noah, and Deng . .our best offensive players. Afflalo has been very efficient this year, but we won't be getting Afllalo. He's also that efficient in a different offense.

Basically the point is, the amount of points the Bulls would score with Rose, Boozer, Deng, Noah, and a scoring SG, wouldn't be more than like 1- 1 1/2 points more than what they'd get with our Bogans/Brewer combo instead of Afflalo. Meanwhile, how many more points would we give up with a soft defensive player like Afflalo instead of Bogans and Brewer who are both above average defensive players?

I really don't think the net change in points would be as much as some think. Afflalo is of course better than Bogans. . .he's having a huge ridiculously great year offensively. So that's a bit of a trap comparison. . .the most efficient role player SG this year vs Bogans. Come on. :P But yeah, take a normal role player SG, insert in Bogans' place. . .I don't think the diff is very big. Half a point to a point tops. Improvement, but not a massive one imo.

Just so you know, I'm not trying to like. . .say keep Bogans and not replace him. I would like to upgrade just as much as everyone else :P But I'm just saying Bogans isn't as crap as a lot here are making him out to be. He just doesn't score a lot. We have plenty of guys who can score. . . 5 at once isn't neccessary. Very few teams have 5 legit scoring options on the floor throughout a game. Most have just 3. The elites have 3-4 and 1-2 guys feeding off of them. Bulls will have 4 with Noah back. A SG upgrade would be great, but there will likely be a defensive dropoff too.

tl,dr basically, But you get the idea. :P
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Old 02-11-2011, 05:41 PM   #14
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Default Re: How does a professional basketball player not score a single point in 20 minutes?

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Old 02-11-2011, 11:49 PM   #15
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Default Re: How does a professional basketball player not score a single point in 20 minutes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinJackal
I was talking about on the offensive end with the part you bolded. Bogans obviously plays defense too. . .which is the main reason he's out there.

Plenty of teams have had guys that play a similar role. The Spurs had Bruce Bowen for the longest time. His offense was a joke. His role was on the defensive end. And I would've taken Bowen over MANY players who were supposed offensive threats, because Bowen's impact was more valube due to his great defensive ability.

Again, it isn't like Bogans is missing tons of shots every game. He only misses two shots a game, and the Bulls' offensive rating with Bogans on the floor is almost the exact same when he isn't on it. The difference is 1 point per 100 possessions.

Which isn't a big difference. The Bulls are statistically not suffering offensively with Bogans on the floor since Bogans, while not great, is not taking nearly as many shots as he'd need to in order to actually to hurt the offense. Again, he only misses two shots a game, and make about 1 1/2 per game. His main job is to defend. On offense, he's a passing hub and to take a wide open shot. . .usually a three.

And for reference, Bogans' eFG% is 1% better than the Bulls as a team collectively. So he's not as bad as you guys are making him out to be. :P He just doesn't have a versetile offensive arsenal, and doesn't score in volume at all.

Edit: Another thing, don't forget either, that players who score more points do so on significantly more shots. Shots which come out of Rose and Boozer's attempts. Noah's going to be getting shots when he gets back. . .what room would there be for a guy like Affalo in terms of shot attempts? Think about it. When you add a player who scores more points, that player is not magically adding more FGAs for your team. Those FGAs basically come out of a pool of FGAs that your team has to divide among itself. Bogans takes 3 shots. This means more shots for Rose and Boozer, which is a good thing.

YOu made pretty good points, and I too don't want to completely obliterate Bogans from the lineup. However I have some comments about the stats you mentioned like Bogans is only missing 2 shots/game. It just seemed to me that Keith has been VERY selective with his shots, as in, those shots he is taking are wide OPEN shots and at times he is "over passing" with the worry of MISSING a ton of them. As for the Bulls NOT really suffering when he is playing, we have to look BEYOND games played against bad teams like Indiana, Nets etc and start focussing on playoff teams. I think we have established that Bulls are indeed very good enough to secure Home court Advantage atleast in the 1st round, But the BIGGEST question is if they can truly compete against the actual contenders like Miami and Boston with the present lineup, particularly with Bogans playing 18-20 mins/game?
You mentioned that since Kieth is only taking about 3 shots/game, that meant more shots for Rose and Boozer, well IMO, Rose and Boozer and even Deng are taking more shots is bec Keith has been waaay too passive, forcing Rose and Deng to be more aggressive. Derick had to take 3 more shots, from 17 to 20 resulting to decreasing his FG% from 49% to a LOW 44.6%. eventho we all know he has IMPROVED on his perimeter shot accuracy.
Some fans would like to wait next summer to acquire a better SG, I don't want to wait for the simple reason that I stongly believe that they can win it this year if they acquire a legit SG who can play defense and at the same time hit the open 3. Boozer and Deng look good this year but I don't think they would be as good 3 years from now so my estimation is that they have a 3 yr window to win it all before they close
You mentioned Bruce Bowen who is among the TOP defenders when he played, He also averaged 39.3% from the 3pt line. Currently Bogans even with his late resurgence is only averagin 34%. Let me again stress that those are wide open 3's.

Last edited by tamaraw08 : 02-12-2011 at 12:00 AM.
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