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Old 02-16-2011, 06:27 PM   #1
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Default Is Being Clutch Overrated? Re: Kobe playoff shots

I wouldn't necessarily say so. Being clutch is very key in leading teams to wins. Unfortunately though what is overrated is the identification of clutch. It's very difficult to rate the level of clutch play of an individual without regularly watching them. Clutch isn't just making a jumper with 2 seconds left. Clutch is playing consistently as the pressure increased, not wavering under the stress of the situation. It's being able to score when the other team is making a run, it's making a good play (whether defensive, assist, score, or rebound) when your team needs it, because you recognize that your team needs it, and you're the one relied upon to give it to them. Over years of watching LeBron, I would say he is very clutch. Does that mean I'd want him taking a 20 foot jumper to win the game over Kobe? Definitely not, because it's fact that Kobe is a better jump shooter, especially as all his shots come highly contested from that range and he's still able to bury about 40% from that range. Would I want the ball in LeBron's hands though with 10-15 seconds to create? I would say so because he has the advantage in getting to the basket, as well as collapsing the defense for a very wide open shot for a teammate (has happened on numerous occasions, with players like Mo and Delonte).

The fact of the matter though is these clutch stats need to be taken in context. If Zack Randolph has an equal percentage as Kobe, it's not because he's as good in the clutch. It's because Kobe's probably way more heavily guarded in that situation, and so the shots he takes are consequently more difficult. People need to stop trying to quantify "clutch" though and ranking players on clutch ability, because it's too much of an intangible thing (like leadership) to try and rank/quantify.

- What do you guys think? Agree/Disagree? Should we rank the players, or are there other ways to determine who is clutch and who isn't?
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Old 02-16-2011, 06:29 PM   #2
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Default Re: Is Being Clutch Overrated? Re: Kobe playoff shots

Yes! It is.

40 Pages of pure epic discussion between Gino and Kobe homers
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Old 02-16-2011, 06:32 PM   #3
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Default Re: Is Being Clutch Overrated? Re: Kobe playoff shots

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Originally Posted by 8BeastlyXOIAD
Yes! It is.

40 Pages of pure epic discussion between Gino and Kobe homers
Read the post though. I'm saying being clutch isn't overrated, just the criteria we limit it to doesn't actually encompass all the aspects of clutch play, which makes our subsequent judgments based on overrated notions.
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Old 02-16-2011, 06:41 PM   #4
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Default Re: Is Being Clutch Overrated? Re: Kobe playoff shots

I definitely think it's rankable, just in tiers, not actual number 1, number 2, etc etc. I think that's how all rankings should be anyways, not just this. Tiers are less specific, but more accurate.
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Old 02-16-2011, 06:45 PM   #5
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Default Re: Is Being Clutch Overrated? Re: Kobe playoff shots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave3
I definitely think it's rankable, just in tiers, not actual number 1, number 2, etc etc. I think that's how all rankings should be anyways, not just this. Tiers are less specific, but more accurate.

That's sorta like saying you hit somewhere on the dart board almost every time, so you're an incredibly accurate dart thrower.
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Old 02-16-2011, 06:52 PM   #6
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Default Re: Is Being Clutch Overrated? Re: Kobe playoff shots

the reason why kobes fg% is bad in the last minute is because they dont seperate wins from losses.

if a person hits the go ahead basket. either the other team takes back the win or it becomes a free throw contest

so a good clutch game can only result in a 1 for 1

but in a losing game. you have to take desperation long threes and foul. so in losses a guy like kobe can go 0-3 in the final minute before the games finally over.

you cant look for a good attempt when trying to come back from 5-6 down. you end up taking long contested threes instead of being in the mindset in a game where your winning and you take your time


so its a no win situation

the made clutch baskets will always be less total than missed clutch baskets if you combine the numbers from wins and losses


what espn should have done was make a list of kobes FG% from wins in the final minute. and FG% from losses in the final minute

you can only make 1 clutch shot in the final minute of a close game and win. you can miss unlimited and lose
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Old 02-16-2011, 06:54 PM   #7
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Default Re: Is Being Clutch Overrated? Re: Kobe playoff shots

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinJackal
That's sorta like saying you hit somewhere on the dart board almost every time, so you're an incredibly accurate dart thrower.
But I'm not saying put everyone on the same tier. Tiers is a balance. It's not completely accurate, and it's not completely specific, but I believe it's a better balance than just number rankings. Otherwise things can get really messy. You'll get some lists here where one player will be ranked number 3 or 4 by some, and barely in another's top 10 (I've seen it happen with Dwight). With tiers you get much more agreement, allowing a type of standard ranking, as opposed to everyone disagreeing and calling each other names.
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Old 02-16-2011, 06:55 PM   #8
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Default Re: Is Being Clutch Overrated? Re: Kobe playoff shots

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffmoney1784
the reason why kobes fg% is bad in the last minute is because they dont seperate wins from losses.

if a person hits the go ahead basket. either the other team takes back the win or it becomes a free throw contest

so a good clutch game can only result in a 1 for 1

but in a losing game. you have to take desperation long threes and foul. so in losses a guy like kobe can go 0-3 in the final minute before the games finally over.

you cant look for a good attempt when trying to come back from 5-6 down. you end up taking long contested threes instead of being in the mindset in a game where your winning and you take your time


so its a no win situation

the made clutch baskets will always be less total than missed clutch baskets if you combine the numbers from wins and losses


what espn should have done was make a list of kobes FG% from wins in the final minute. and FG% from losses in the final minute

you can only make 1 clutch shot in the final minute of a close game and win. you can miss unlimited and lose

this is not kobe specific. this is true for all players.
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Old 02-16-2011, 06:55 PM   #9
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Default Re: Is Being Clutch Overrated? Re: Kobe playoff shots

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffmoney1784
the reason why kobes fg% is bad in the last minute is because they dont seperate wins from losses.

if a person hits the go ahead basket. either the other team takes back the win or it becomes a free throw contest

so a good clutch game can only result in a 1 for 1

but in a losing game. you have to take desperation long threes and foul. so in losses a guy like kobe can go 0-3 in the final minute before the games finally over.

you cant look for a good attempt when trying to come back from 5-6 down. you end up taking long contested threes instead of being in the mindset in a game where your winning and you take your time


so its a no win situation

the made clutch baskets will always be less total than missed clutch baskets if you combine the numbers from wins and losses


what espn should have done was make a list of kobes FG% from wins in the final minute. and FG% from losses in the final minute

you can only make 1 clutch shot in the final minute of a close game and win. you can miss unlimited and lose
Exactly, and that's why I think it's difficult to quantify clutch ability because of the various situations that the stats can result from.
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Old 02-16-2011, 06:59 PM   #10
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Default Re: Is Being Clutch Overrated? Re: Kobe playoff shots

Quote:
Originally Posted by M.V.P
I wouldn't necessarily say so. Being clutch is very key in leading teams to wins. Unfortunately though what is overrated is the identification of clutch. It's very difficult to rate the level of clutch play of an individual without regularly watching them. Clutch isn't just making a jumper with 2 seconds left. Clutch is playing consistently as the pressure increased, not wavering under the stress of the situation. It's being able to score when the other team is making a run, it's making a good play (whether defensive, assist, score, or rebound) when your team needs it, because you recognize that your team needs it, and you're the one relied upon to give it to them. Over years of watching LeBron, I would say he is very clutch. Does that mean I'd want him taking a 20 foot jumper to win the game over Kobe? Definitely not, because it's fact that Kobe is a better jump shooter, especially as all his shots come highly contested from that range and he's still able to bury about 40% from that range. Would I want the ball in LeBron's hands though with 10-15 seconds to create? I would say so because he has the advantage in getting to the basket, as well as collapsing the defense for a very wide open shot for a teammate (has happened on numerous occasions, with players like Mo and Delonte).

The fact of the matter though is these clutch stats need to be taken in context. If Zack Randolph has an equal percentage as Kobe, it's not because he's as good in the clutch. It's because Kobe's probably way more heavily guarded in that situation, and so the shots he takes are consequently more difficult. People need to stop trying to quantify "clutch" though and ranking players on clutch ability, because it's too much of an intangible thing (like leadership) to try and rank/quantify.

- What do you guys think? Agree/Disagree? Should we rank the players, or are there other ways to determine who is clutch and who isn't?


its clearly over-rated because the best guy in the league doesn't even make 50% of game winning shots.

now if you are talking about clutch as in the last few minutes of tight games? then no, its not over-rated at all. the best guys: dirk/kobe/lebron/carmelo....they have a huge advantage in my opinion in terms of leading teams so wins more often than other guys.

but then we have to get into all encompassing things though. like duncan/kg....they are clutch with defense and rebounding a lot as well. chris paul is clutch with his passing and defense a lot. its not just scoring of course.

stats will never tell the whole story. but now we can look at how a team and player perform in game winning situations, 4th qtrs, 4th qtrs in the playoffs, regular season games that are close in the final few minutes, playoff games that are close in the final few minutes. those are quality stats. are they the end all be all? of course not, but they matter.
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Old 02-16-2011, 07:02 PM   #11
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Default Re: Is Being Clutch Overrated? Re: Kobe playoff shots

Quote:
Originally Posted by ginobli2311
its clearly over-rated because the best guy in the league doesn't even make 50% of game winning shots.

now if you are talking about clutch as in the last few minutes of tight games? then no, its not over-rated at all. the best guys: dirk/kobe/lebron/carmelo....they have a huge advantage in my opinion in terms of leading teams so wins more often than other guys.

but then we have to get into all encompassing things though. like duncan/kg....they are clutch with defense and rebounding a lot as well. chris paul is clutch with his passing and defense a lot. its not just scoring of course.

stats will never tell the whole story. but now we can look at how a team and player perform in game winning situations, 4th qtrs, 4th qtrs in the playoffs, regular season games that are close in the final few minutes, playoff games that are close in the final few minutes. those are quality stats. are they the end all be all? of course not, but they matter.
That's my point. What is clutch actually defined as? No where in my post did I say clutch was defined as last second shots. I mentioned that it can be at almost anytime, as long as it's key in the momentum/outcome of the game (or at least more so than other plays throughout the game)
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Old 02-16-2011, 07:03 PM   #12
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Default Re: Is Being Clutch Overrated? Re: Kobe playoff shots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave3
But I'm not saying put everyone on the same tier. Tiers is a balance. It's not completely accurate, and it's not completely specific, but I believe it's a better balance than just number rankings. Otherwise things can get really messy. You'll get some lists here where one player will be ranked number 3 or 4 by some, and barely in another's top 10 (I've seen it happen with Dwight). With tiers you get much more agreement, allowing a type of standard ranking, as opposed to everyone disagreeing and calling each other names.

I know you're not, I was pretty much just messing with you.

In any case, tiers aren't a balance. Especially if you're grouping a lot of people together. In most cases when I see people make tiers, they group together A+ quality things with B+ or A-, which imo, is not "accurate".

I can see your point about numbered rankings at times being inaccurate, but in the end, anybody's rankings are going to be inaccurate because of their bias. Unless someone has fashined themselves a rigid ranking system that wasn't built around their favorite player being at or near the top of it, then pretty much anyone's rankings (numbered or tiered), are going to be inaccurate.

So while tiers lead to less arguing, it doesn't neccessarily lead to better accuracy. It's mainly to reduce arguments, and is generally less accurate since you usually end up putting inferior players, teams, or whatever you're ranking, in a group with superior ones. Which means you're saying they're just as good. . .which wouldn't be accurate. :P
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Old 02-16-2011, 07:04 PM   #13
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Default Re: Is Being Clutch Overrated? Re: Kobe playoff shots

Quote:
Originally Posted by M.V.P
If Zack Randolph has an equal percentage as Kobe, it's not because he's as good in the clutch. It's because Kobe's probably way more heavily guarded in that situation, and so the shots he takes are consequently more difficult.


is making a tough shot any more clutch than finding an open teammate for a good shot?
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Old 02-16-2011, 07:05 PM   #14
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Default Re: Is Being Clutch Overrated? Re: Kobe playoff shots

Quote:
Originally Posted by M.V.P
That's my point. What is clutch actually defined as? No where in my post did I say clutch was defined as last second shots. I mentioned that it can be at almost anytime, as long as it's key in the momentum/outcome of the game (or at least more so than other plays throughout the game)

it obviously has a fluid definition for different people. there is not a perfect criteria. that is for sure.

can you be clutch in the 3rd qtr? of course. ultimately though the best thing to look at in my opinion would be overall impact in close games in the 4th qtrs. its not perfect of course, but if you try and start crediting guys with clutch plays in the first half of games or something then it becomes kind of crazy.

4th qtr individual and team performance with the game in doubt is a pretty good measure in my opinion.
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Old 02-16-2011, 07:06 PM   #15
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Default Re: Is Being Clutch Overrated? Re: Kobe playoff shots

Quote:
Originally Posted by chips93
is making a tough shot any more clutch than finding an open teammate for a good shot?

You just made heads explode.
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