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Old 02-22-2011, 10:50 AM   #16
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Default Re: The Melo trade instantly made me think about BC

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Originally Posted by bluerap
The other thing to consider is that Melo was upfront and honest with Denver.
CB was not and neither was Lebron.

But I still hold BC accountable.
As I have said many times, including last year, we should have traded cb because we only had at best a 50/50 shot at signing him and those are not good odds.

We could have had some really decent pieces for him.

This package may not be spectacular, but it is WAY better than what we got and I think Denver will be fine.
I wouldn't even go as far as to say that we had a 50-50 shot. A lot of people saw it as a 50-50 shot but I saw it as more like 20-80. If we had made the playoffs, PLUS advanced at least one or two rounds, then we would've had a 50-50 shot, maybe. But as an average team with average players and average results we didn't have as great of a shot as people were making it out to be. I think Bron leaving came as a big shock/surprise, but if you had listened to all the things Bosh was saying and the whole "mum's the word" approach he was taking to his interviews, it was clear he wanted to go. As a GM, you have to do what's best for your franchise. If he was smart he would've taken a good hard look at how shitty this roster is without Bosh, and said that if the dude was non-committal by that point of the season (which he was), get his ass out of there and get in some pieces that can be used for the future.

And in response to Q, no matter what you think of the players Denver got, Chandler/Gallinari are currently being paid about 5 mill between the two of them, Felton is either a good young piece or a solid trading chip (as are the rest of them), plus they got multiple extra draft picks and cash considerations/11M expirer. You can't always look at it in terms of what those guys are gonna do for them right now.
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Old 02-22-2011, 10:53 AM   #17
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Default Re: The Melo trade instantly made me think about BC

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Originally Posted by DJMason
Now I'm far from a fan of BC but in his defense last year at the trade deadline there were talks that we might overtake Boston to win the Atlantic division, everyone was still under the impression that a successful season might be enough to keep Bosh

A fair point but Ironically i will argue against it i.e. against BC.

I think come the deadline or at least christmas when the team was in the hunt in the playoffs (people were projecting Raptors at 5 or 6 ) there were some sure signs out of Dallas that CB4 would not resign - tweets papers his posse. By Feb we knew we were in the tank and the dull sounds of Bosh leaving became a roar.

And in the mean time BC had no plan B to move Bosh.

It would have been extremely difficult to move him at the deadline.... the takers would have offered little in return (not even as much as the Nuggets got - likely) but we would have had pieces and cap space and be no worse than we are now. Perhaps (likely??) better as we might have had another 1st rounder last year - which would almost have been mandatory - to compliment Davis/Derozan. Maybe not John Wall but ????

I hold BC accountable for not seeming to have a trigger to pull by Feb 2009 on CB4 - for accepting the 50 50 risk.

To FCs point - I dont think many fans actually believe these super egos owe the city something any more. The fans are simply fans of the franchise and want to see the management turn negative sitations into good situations. They want to see - I want to see - the Raptors win, make the playoffs, mature, go deep into the playoffs. So when one of these super egos leave a team the fans obviously want to see sour milk turned into pure wine as soon as possible.

Last edited by Jballer : 02-22-2011 at 10:55 AM.
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Old 02-22-2011, 11:53 AM   #18
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Default Re: The Melo trade instantly made me think about BC

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Originally Posted by DJMason

Besides given that apparently all along Bosh wanted to go and join the superfriends in Miami, which resulted in not one but two S&T's I don't see how BC could have done much better in terms of getting a package for a guy when he'd either be shipped to a place that needed to hold assets to pick up Lebron as well or to a team that would have no assurance that he'd be more than a rental and therefore would be less likely to sell the farm for him.

That is terrible logic. I credit Denver because they got a decent package from the only team melo was willing to extend with. A lot of teams would have taken a crack at cb because they had a decent chance to sign him including Miami, ny, Houston, Dallas and la.
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Old 02-22-2011, 01:00 PM   #19
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Default Re: The Melo trade instantly made me think about BC

We have very different situations here.

1) No way BC could have traded CB for anything because CB would not sign long term elsewhere. You can try and blame BC for not getting anything in return, but I don't know that there was anything available. There was no team ready to gut themselves for a rental player that couldnít guarantee a team a big push in the playoffs, or a team that would risk taking Bosh on without a long term commitment.

2) Melo plays a position that is a requisite for todayís teams and todayís game. Melo is a game changer, Bosh is a complimentary player.

3) Everybody needs to accept that CB was going to South Beach. No more discussion required. He was going to join Wade and LeBron in a pre-ordained deal between the players. Nothing, absolutely nothing could have changed that.

4) Melo wanted only New York, and please donít tell me the Nets. It was the Knicks this year or the Knicks next year. Denver was in no position to negotiate with anybody else, and finally had to take what was being offered.

Whether this is a good deal or bad deal with Melo I don't know, but I do know that we can't begin to compare the scenarios between Bosh and Melo.
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Old 02-22-2011, 01:20 PM   #20
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Default Re: The Melo trade instantly made me think about BC

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We have very different situations here.
In some ways yes and in some ways no. The major difference being Melo's willingness to sign an extension, but they would be in the exact same position as we were if they tried to hardball Melo like BC did for Bosh. Bosh said look, these are the teams i'm in contact with, I want to go to one of them (or at least i'm interested in X______ teams). BC said, sorry, those teams dont have what we want so i'll take my chances in the summer. Denver's management said ok we'll send you to the team you want if they give us everything we want. That's where he f*cked up.

Quote:
Melo plays a position that is a requisite for today’s teams and today’s game. Melo is a game changer, Bosh is a complimentary player.
Melo is a great player no doubt, but still not on the level of Lebron and Wade IMO. And there's one reason why I say that, defense. His offense is on par or better with any of the top guys in the league but his defense isn't at the level of a Kobe or Wade or Lebron. It could be when he puts in the effort but he's generally a lazy defender and that's been his M.O. That said, he's still better than Chris Bosh but he's had some stellar teams around him and only had one season in 7 where he made it out of the first round.
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Old 02-22-2011, 01:29 PM   #21
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Default Re: The Melo trade instantly made me think about BC

Bokes, do you think CB really ever intended to play for somebody other then Miami? For that matter, does anybody else?
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Old 02-22-2011, 01:50 PM   #22
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Default Re: The Melo trade instantly made me think about BC

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Originally Posted by b4ball
Bokes, do you think CB really ever intended to play for somebody other then Miami? For that matter, does anybody else?
Ok, so if the #1 choice was obviously Miami as NY was for Melo, why didn't BC attempt to get Beasley, Wright, Haslem, Chalmers, etc... in addition to draft picks and cash? You're either not seeing the point, or just choosing to ignore it.
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Old 02-22-2011, 01:53 PM   #23
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Default Re: The Melo trade instantly made me think about BC

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Originally Posted by b4ball
Bokes, do you think CB really ever intended to play for somebody other then Miami? For that matter, does anybody else?

It all depended on where Lebron and Wade were going.
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Old 02-22-2011, 01:54 PM   #24
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Default Re: The Melo trade instantly made me think about BC

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Originally Posted by bluerap
That is terrible logic. I credit Denver because they got a decent package from the only team melo was willing to extend with. A lot of teams would have taken a crack at cb because they had a decent chance to sign him including Miami, ny, Houston, Dallas and la.

But the Denver GM got the best package he could out of a team that wasn't also bundling players/picks together for another superstar (Lebron).

I'm with b4ball on this one, I don't think there was ever a legitimate chance that the superfriends wouldn't unite in southbeach, and any courting of other teams was just a facade in the same way that Melo was playing around with the Nets. Given that fact, I don't see how Miami had enough resources to make a decent package happen for us given that they had to acquire Lebron too, and any other team who traded for Bosh likely would not have sold the farm either since he wouldn't commit to resign with them anymore than he did with us.

You may disagree with my premises, but the logic is far from "terrible".
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Old 02-22-2011, 03:09 PM   #25
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Default Re: The Melo trade instantly made me think about BC

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Originally Posted by FCardelle
This quote sums up what I think.
If I were a superstar in my last season of a contract I would have two things clear in my mind:
(1) My current team can trade my current contract, but they have no right at all to negotiate with my next contract.
(2) If I want to play for a contender, I have to look after my next team's interests, not my current team's.

Even if NY can get another superstar, they will be as depleted as my Miami was.
BUT, Chris Paul/DWilliams + Carmelo + Amare are not comparable at all to Wade + Lebron + Bosh. Lebron>>>Carmelo makes the difference.
Carmelo has screwed up his own future as a player. He won't ever play in the Finals in his prime.

My question to the Knicks would be: How do you plan an acquiring Paul or Williams (if that's the plan). Once Melo signs his extension, they won't have enough Cap room to sign either one of them as a FA, and they certainly don't have enough assets to trade for either one of them.

Regarding Bosh's situation versus this one - I think we also have to remember the situation the Raps were in last year around this time. IIRC, the Raps were sitting in 5th place in the East, with some discussion as to whether or not they had a chance to catch Boston for 1st in the division. The team didn't really go downhill until after the deadline. Bosh was still being coy about the whole "I haven't made up my mind" thing.

Granted, it's a GM's job to read the tea leaves and try to figure these things out, but Bosh's situation was much more murky than Denver's.
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Old 02-22-2011, 03:10 PM   #26
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Default Re: The Melo trade instantly made me think about BC

I was under the impression that they would actually have enough cap space to sign CP or Dwill.

I don't know how many times I have seen the argument made about a team being depleated on this message board. It's like people are grasping at straws. It happened when Boston made their trades, and it happened with Miami put together their team, and now again. How can anyone say that the Knicks getting Melo, and potentially another stud in a year is a bad thing, especially where they came from. You can fill out the roster. If not in the first year, like Boston did, then certainly in the next season when you're exceptions kick in.

Last edited by RapsFan : 02-22-2011 at 03:13 PM.
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Old 02-22-2011, 03:13 PM   #27
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Default Re: The Melo trade instantly made me think about BC

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Originally Posted by RapsFan
I was under the impression that they would actually have enough cap space to sign CP or Dwill.

I haven't actually looked, but Hollinger was on Fan 590 around 2 and made that point, actually.

I was just passing it along, trying to look super smart, and it may have back fired in my face.

:)
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Old 02-22-2011, 03:19 PM   #28
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Default Re: The Melo trade instantly made me think about BC

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Originally Posted by RaininThrees
I haven't actually looked, but Hollinger was on Fan 590 around 2 and made that point, actually.

I was just passing it along, trying to look super smart, and it may have back fired in my face.

:)

Who knows! When you look at their salaries, it sure looks like they have room for anoter big contract but again, who knows.
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Old 02-22-2011, 04:13 PM   #29
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Default Re: The Melo trade instantly made me think about BC

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Originally Posted by RapsFan
How can anyone say that the Knicks getting Melo, and potentially another stud in a year is a bad thing, especially where they came from. You can fill out the roster. If not in the first year, like Boston did, then certainly in the next season when you're exceptions kick in.
Because you (and a lot of other people) are acting as if they already have Chris Paul or whatever stud you had in mind.
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Old 02-22-2011, 05:33 PM   #30
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Default Re: The Melo trade instantly made me think about BC

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Because you (and a lot of other people) are acting as if they already have Chris Paul or whatever stud you had in mind.

Agree. We don't know if CPaul or DWilliams will give up money to sign as free agents for NY. Their teams will try to sign and trade them to other team because NY is already depleted.
It would have been much easier for NY if they still had Gallinari and Mozgov, for example.
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