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Old 04-06-2012, 04:34 PM   #91
knickscity
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Default Re: Why?? Why trade Gallo???

Fair enough Scoooter, I value your opinions, whether I agree or not.

1) I agree Melo is influential on the team, and honestly he should be.

He is the main guy that will always be the one to determine who comes to this team as far as depth goes in the future.

I also feel is Melo continues to buy-in, the team will follow suit.

2) I asked this question for a specific reason, and I feel you gave me the response I was expecting.

Melo did what he was told, whether he enjoyed it, or consistently really shouldn't come into play.

Melo is best when he is happy and motivated, just like any worker on any job.

But clearly when your put in a position that isn't your specialty, whether you're qualified or not, it takes something away from you, as it's not your comfort zone.

3) I do think D'antoni was placed in an awkward position the entire time he was here, but he was paid very well to handle those things.

As the coach, you adapt, while putting your team in a position to win games.

I can't say he didn't do that totally, although I don't think he adjusted as his roster adjusted.

At times, moreso than none, it was his way or no way, even if it isn't working or should have never been attempted, it was still "D'antoni's way".

I honestly believe D'antoni checked out the day of the Melo deal, and it came to being obvious last year when he spoke about Melo being a triple double threat.

This was with Chauncey on the team at the time, basically D'antoni saying....

"You caused me to lose all the guys who can effectively run my system, so now I gonna make sure you do everything they were doing".

I think D'antoni put Melo above the team, and his demise was in motion at that point.
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Old 04-06-2012, 05:30 PM   #92
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Default Re: Why?? Why trade Gallo???

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Not consistently, and not with enthusiasm. Always cheating out of position on offense and losing his man on D. Last season, under D'antoni, he averaged 26 ppg on good percentages. This season he was clearly dogging it*.

You do realize he's been injured since the end of last season right. He rehabs every day 4 different injuries every day.

Just like ppl wanted to anoint Linking after we won some games, you gotta hold Mike accountable. First and foremost, the Post reported Melo tried to have D'Antoni fired. None of that was verified, Anthony vehimently denied it and since Mike's left, no evidence has surface to prove the allegations. Secondly, Mike deserved to have his team quit on him. He could care less about defense. He quit on his team in the beginning of the season (I vividly remember having discussion about this) and he was stuck in his unsuccessful ways. This is the same coach that benched Marbury after he came in camp in the best shape of his life. He had a terrific preseason and then inexplicably got benched in favor of bum ass Duhon. Then, instead of owning up to the move, he lies and tells the media Marbury refused to check in the game on a substitution...something that even the players Steph didnt get along with said wasn't true. I know it's ultimately the players that play the games but at some point, coaches need to be held accountable too. Name the last time you heard an NBA analyst on national TV say a coach was a terrible coach. Mike D'Antoni was very strict in the way he wanted things to be done, but when it didn't work (which it didnt for the last 5 years) he didnt want to ever take responsibility fr his own failure. You can't have it both ways.
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Old 04-06-2012, 05:34 PM   #93
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Default Re: Why?? Why trade Gallo???

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Originally Posted by knickscity
Fair enough Scoooter, I value your opinions, whether I agree or not.

1) I agree Melo is influential on the team, and honestly he should be.

He is the main guy that will always be the one to determine who comes to this team as far as depth goes in the future.

I also feel is Melo continues to buy-in, the team will follow suit.
Which is why the team played poorly when he was dogging it and dragging everyone else down with him. An influential saboteur.

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2) I asked this question for a specific reason, and I feel you gave me the response I was expecting.

Melo did what he was told, whether he enjoyed it, or consistently really shouldn't come into play.

Melo is best when he is happy and motivated, just like any worker on any job.

But clearly when your put in a position that isn't your specialty, whether you're qualified or not, it takes something away from you, as it's not your comfort zone.
Consistent effort shouldn't come into play? I guess that's why we all want to be professional athletes. No accountability, no blame, millions of dollars. Oh, but he wasn't in his comfort zone; being the leading scorer, passing the ball to his teammates, and playing some D. Poor baby.

Talk about a double standard. We have to kowtow to Carmelo's comfort (he of the 8 first round exits), but the coach can't get the players he wants. Players' league I guess.

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3) I do think D'antoni was placed in an awkward position the entire time he was here, but he was paid very well to handle those things.

As the coach, you adapt, while putting your team in a position to win games.
Like coaching the team into the playoffs for the first time in, what, 6 years? Like the Knicks, from 2010 until now, for all the ups and downs, haven't been the best Knicks team we've seen in a decade?

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I can't say he didn't do that totally, although I don't think he adjusted as his roster adjusted.
Except, that he did adjust. He gave Melo even more responsibility, and tried to tailor a role for him that gave him even more decision making responsibility. Don't forget that whole, "point forward" thing came about because we didn't have a point guard who could competently get the ball over half court. The problem was Carmelo isn't that good, he doesn't have that skillset. Lebron could have done it. Paul Pierce could have done it. Melo is a more limited player.

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At times, moreso than none, it was his way or no way, even if it isn't working or should have never been attempted, it was still "D'antoni's way".
You say this, but then...
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I think D'antoni put Melo above the team, and his demise was in motion at that point.


This is the kind of stuff I've been hearing all season. Back and forth rationalizing in the babying of Carmelo.

Arguing that Melo is our best passer and playmaker, and then moaning when D'antoni tries to make him do that. Saying he doesn't get the ball enough after spending weeks bitching about how D'antoni was trying to make him do too much. And then choke down Mike Woodson's crap about "getting the ball to your stars" like we haven't been doing that all season.



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I honestly believe D'antoni checked out the day of the Melo deal, and it came to being obvious last year when he spoke about Melo being a triple double threat.
Neither D'antoni nor Walsh wanted that deal to go down, and with good reason, it was an awful deal. And then they were both canned. Makes you wonder why they were even hired in the first place. Oh wait, maybe it has something to do with out owner being an unrepentant clown.

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This was with Chauncey on the team at the time, basically D'antoni saying....

"You caused me to lose all the guys who can effectively run my system, so now I gonna make sure you do everything they were doing".
The point forward stuff was this season, after Chauncey was amnestied and we realized none of the point guards on the roster knew how to play basketball. Last year the Larry Bird stuff was in a different context. He was saying that Melo had the talent to be a consistent triple double guy. And the rebounding and points were almost there as it was. Why he gets vilified for basically just talking up his new player - even if it was only an insincere appeasement play (and I'm not saying it was) - is beyond me. But for some people, D'antoni could do no right.

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Old 04-06-2012, 05:41 PM   #94
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Default Re: Why?? Why trade Gallo???

Walsh was brought here to get Lebron. When he failed at that, we had to move to plan B, which turned out to be Melo. Dolan had to do whatever was necessary to not fail at plan B as well, which very easily could have happened if we didn't pony up our gaggle of small forwards, and Mozgov.

What did we give up really that was so bad?
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Old 04-06-2012, 05:43 PM   #95
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Default Re: Why?? Why trade Gallo???

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Originally Posted by franchize
You do realize he's been injured since the end of last season right. He rehabs every day 4 different injuries every day.
Doesn't matter. He was nursing those same few injuries under the start of Woodson's tenure, and the difference in his play was still noticeable.

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Just like ppl wanted to anoint Linking after we won some games, you gotta hold Mike accountable. First and foremost, the Post reported Melo tried to have D'Antoni fired. None of that was verified, Anthony vehimently denied it and since Mike's left, no evidence has surface to prove the allegations. Secondly, Mike deserved to have his team quit on him. He could care less about defense. He quit on his team in the beginning of the season (I vividly remember having discussion about this) and he was stuck in his unsuccessful ways. This is the same coach that benched Marbury after he came in camp in the best shape of his life. He had a terrific preseason and then inexplicably got benched in favor of bum ass Duhon. Then, instead of owning up to the move, he lies and tells the media Marbury refused to check in the game on a substitution...something that even the players Steph didnt get along with said wasn't true. I know it's ultimately the players that play the games but at some point, coaches need to be held accountable too. Name the last time you heard an NBA analyst on national TV say a coach was a terrible coach. Mike D'Antoni was very strict in the way he wanted things to be done, but when it didn't work (which it didnt for the last 5 years) he didnt want to ever take responsibility fr his own failure. You can't have it both ways.


Good god, more Marbury crap. The way you tell it, Stephon Marbury was a saintly little choir boy having the screws put to him by big bad Mike D'antoni. Do you just sit there and pretend that Marbury hasn't had problems at every other stop he's been bounced from in the league? That Minnesota didn't ship his ass out, that New Jersey didn't, that Phoenix didn't, that Larry Brown and even Isiah Thomas had problems with him? Like he wasn't a punk even back in high school? The guy was a talented loser with an unjustified ego. That's it.
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Old 04-06-2012, 05:46 PM   #96
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Default Re: Why?? Why trade Gallo???

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Originally Posted by Sarcastic
Walsh was brought here to get Lebron. When he failed at that, we had to move to plan B, which turned out to be Melo. Dolan had to do whatever was necessary to not fail at plan B as well, which very easily could have happened if we didn't pony up our gaggle of small forwards, and Mozgov.

What did we give up really that was so bad?
More than we had to. The Knicks had all the leverage in that deal, the Nuggets bent them over with impunity.

Dolan.
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Old 04-06-2012, 05:50 PM   #97
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Default Re: Why?? Why trade Gallo???

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Originally Posted by Rowe
This is surprising coming from you. Glad you're finally coming around.
Eat my dick loser. j/k

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I believe its unfair to compare Melo's performance last season when he arrived in New York with what we have seen from him this season. You're forgetting he was already 4-5 months in basketball shape playing for the Nuggets before coming into New York. He was asked to adapt into a new system that lacked any sort of 2nd unit or a 6th Man after he arrived.
Shouldn't that mean he would play worse? The argument was he couldn't play well for Mike D'antoni, when just last year we saw him do exactly that. You guys forget how close and competitive that series was, even with Stoudemire and Billups down. The idea that a Carmelo/D'antoni team couldn't have success is absurd.

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This season with the lockout and all, he started off the season extremely well despite playing out of position in what D'Antoni defined as a "Larry Bird" role.
First of all, Carmelo should be flattered to be mentioned in the same sentence as Larry Bird, he isn't half the player. So, basically, D'antoni wanted Carmelo to be the focal point of the offense, minus the freedom to iso on every single possession. Passing to your teammates, oh the horror. Complaining that Mike1 was making him do too much and then bitching about relegating him to a "spot-up shooter" and then gobbling up the crap from Mike2 about "getting the ball to your stars". You guys were saying that he's our best passer, but then complaining when D'antoni tried to make him more of a playmaker. When people say most Knicks fans are idiots, it can be hard to argue otherwise.

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Then came the injuries. He sprained his wrist & ankle and tried to play through it and his numbers began to decline, and then came the groin injury which set him back completely. Looking at how many games Derrick Rose has missed due to his groin injury, it definetly was more impactful on a guy like Melo who already was playing hurt. Melo has just started to get healthy and get his confidence back, it seems a lot of other Knicks fans(not you Scooter) ignore that Melo was still struggling at the start of Woodson's tenure.
I never cared about his scoring, except that he was forcing the issue when he clearly wasn't capable. Like you said, he even struggled early under Woodson, but the change in his demeanor and energy was obvious. Defense is 90% effort, and on on the court it filters down from the stars.

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I dont believe he purposely went out there to undermine D'Antoni with his struggles from the floor. I honestly believe that he was injured and he didn't bounce back as quickly as anyone hoped.
I disagree, and think it's plainly evident from watching him all season. But, honestly, would it really matter to you if he came out and admitted to it, unambiguously? I doubt it.

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Ehh. I personally think D'Antoni checked out before the season began when they made it be known he was a Lame Duck coach. Bringing Woodson on board was clearly a move to ensure we didn't see Herb Williams coaching this team when D'Antoni did get fired. "Linsanity" saved the inevitable of his termination, but also it highlighted how his system when nearly perfected clashed against our current personnel moving forward. It spawned the whole "Trade Melo for shooters" arguments which were absolutely ridiculous.
Goes back to what I've been saying for a long time. The Knicks problems start at the top. In Dolan we trust.
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Old 04-06-2012, 05:56 PM   #98
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Default Re: Why?? Why trade Gallo???

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Originally Posted by Scoooter
More than we had to. The Knicks had all the leverage in that deal, the Nuggets bent them over with impunity.

Dolan.

The only player we would have kept was Mozgov. Maybe if Melo came as a free agent, we would have Gallo for 1 more year. But after that we would have to renounce his rights. Chandler was definitely gone. Felton was essentially traded for Billups.

So we lost 1 year of Gallo and Mozgov to secure Melo and make sure he did not sign with the Nets. I would make that trade every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

In a normal year, the Knicks would have had leverage. But with the lockout coming, Melo did not know what the next contracts would look like, so he would have signed with the Nets if we didn't bring him in at the time.
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Old 04-06-2012, 05:57 PM   #99
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Default Re: Why?? Why trade Gallo???

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Originally Posted by Scoooter
Doesn't matter. He was nursing those same few injuries under the start of Woodson's tenure, and the difference in his play was still noticeable.




Good god, more Marbury crap. The way you tell it, Stephon Marbury was a saintly little choir boy having the screws put to him by big bad Mike D'antoni. Do you just sit there and pretend that Marbury hasn't had problems at every other stop he's been bounced from in the league? That Minnesota didn't ship his ass out, that New Jersey didn't, that Phoenix didn't, that Larry Brown and even Isiah Thomas had problems with him? Like he wasn't a punk even back in high school? The guy was a talented loser with an unjustified ego. That's it.

Is that really how I tell it, or has it just become blasphemy for a NYer to talk about Marbury in any other light other than him being a blakc thug with tattoos? His relationship with Thomas soured because of the off the court incident. Had nothing to do with basketball and everything to do with both of them thinking with what's behind the zipper. He didnt get shipped out of Minnesota. He wanted to leave. They wanted him to stay.KG's ass wasted years in his career by being so loyal. Larry Brown didnt get along with ANYBODY which is why he can't keep a job.

But at the end of the day, what does that have to do with my point? The fact still remains that D'Antoni is a liar and doesn't take responsibility for the short comings of his teams' piss poor play. Judging from your willingness to defend him, I'd say that not only are you his biggest fan but you guys may be the same person lol

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Doesn't matter. He was nursing those same few injuries under the start of Woodson's tenure, and the difference in his play was still noticeable

Ok so why not give him his props? When he was scoring last year, you had a problem. When his scorig went down, you still had a problem. Now his scoring is better and his defense is WAY better, and you're still mad because he didn't start off the season that way. Newsflash, EVERYONE stunk in the beginning of the season!
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Old 04-06-2012, 05:57 PM   #100
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Default Re: Why?? Why trade Gallo???

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Originally Posted by Sarcastic
The only player we would have kept was Mozgov. Maybe if Melo came as a free agent, we would have Gallo for 1 more year. But after that we would have to renounce his rights. Chandler was definitely gone. Felton was essentially traded for Billups.

So we lost 1 year of Gallo and Mozgov to secure Melo and make sure he did not sign with the Nets. I would make that trade every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
So you agree that we gave up more than we should. You're finally making sense.
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Old 04-06-2012, 05:59 PM   #101
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Default Re: Why?? Why trade Gallo???

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Originally Posted by Scoooter
So you agree that we gave up more than we should. You're finally making sense.

We were supposed to give up Toney Douglas and Bill Walker? Is that what you think would have been an acceptable offer?
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Old 04-06-2012, 06:04 PM   #102
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Default Re: Why?? Why trade Gallo???

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Originally Posted by franchize
Is that really how I tell it, or has it just become blasphemy for a NYer to talk about Marbury in any other light other than him being a blakc thug with tattoos? His relationship with Thomas soured because of the off the court incident. Had nothing to do with basketball and everything to do with both of them thinking with what's behind the zipper. He didnt get shipped out of Minnesota. He wanted to leave. They wanted him to stay.KG's ass wasted years in his career by being so loyal. Larry Brown didnt get along with ANYBODY which is why he can't keep a job.
Now I'm a racist. You're a real class act, franchize.

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But at the end of the day, what does that have to do with my point? The fact still remains that D'Antoni is a liar and doesn't take responsibility for the short comings of his teams' piss poor play. Judging from your willingness to defend him, I'd say that not only are you his biggest fan but you guys may be the same person lol
Yep, I'm Mike D'antoni. I speak Italian, I have a cool mustache, and I'm rich.

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Ok so why not give him his props?
Why not gove him props for sabotaging the team to his own selfish ends? Did you really just ask me that?
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When he was scoring last year, you had a problem.

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When his scorig went down, you still had a problem. Now his scoring is better and his defense is WAY better, and you're still mad because he didn't start off the season that way. Newsflash, EVERYONE stunk in the beginning of the season!
If I'm mad it's because it's obvious he purposely wasn't giving out the effort the team needed from him, and as a result we're now fighting for the eighth seed. I'm a Knicks fan first, not a Carmelo fan.
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Old 04-06-2012, 06:07 PM   #103
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Default Re: Why?? Why trade Gallo???

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Originally Posted by Sarcastic
We were supposed to give up Toney Douglas and Bill Walker? Is that what you think would have been an acceptable offer?
How about some competent management for the Knicks? That would be a nice change of pace.
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Old 04-06-2012, 06:09 PM   #104
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Default Re: Why?? Why trade Gallo???

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Originally Posted by Scoooter
How about some competent management for the Knicks? That would be a nice change of pace.

What would have been a fair offer?
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Old 04-06-2012, 06:15 PM   #105
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Default Re: Why?? Why trade Gallo???

Based on talent? Felton, Chandler, and Mozgov. Or Felton and Gallo. Or Chandler and a handful of lesser players and whatever draft picks. No one denies Melo's talent as a scorer, although he is overrated in that regard.

Based on the situation? You play hardball, and, worst case scenario, you get Chris Paul or Deron Williams or you still have a playoff team and make some more moves next year.

The Knicks negotiated like chumps, and no one should be surprised.
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