Re: if Kobe was just as good as always but never played on super talented teams
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Originally Posted by M.Bustly15A5RU8
I just took Kobe as an example.
Let's say you put a guy like Kobe on the Timberwolves and he never wins a ring there, does that make him worse as a player? No.
But Kobe would be ranked lower than he is now.
You could say that Lakers Kobe has proven that he's capable of winning a ring with a team, but that doesn't make him a better player than Timberwolves Kobe.
Except you're assuming the Timberwolves don't find a way to assemble a team around him, which is silly. Even if he never wins a ring, you realize people will be talking about him as top 10-12 based just on his individual play. Look at the insane things he did in 06 and 07 when he had a crap team around him. If he does that stuff for 8-9 years people will certainly put him the conversation. Ton's have West and Oscar in the top 10 and Bryant is a better player than either.
Re: if Kobe was just as good as always but never played on super talented teams
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Originally Posted by ginobli2311
Gasol is a sure fire Hall of Fame player. You may not agree, but Gasol could retire tomorrow and make the Hall. Thats just a fact.
I'm not sure how I would rank the current Lakers all time, but the fact remains that compared to the rest of the league, they have been either the best or 2nd best team since the Gasol trade. If you were to remove the best player off each contending team, what team is better than the Lakers over the last 4 years now?
Definitely not the Spurs/Mavs/Cavs/Suns/Magic. The only team in the debate would be the Celtics.
So at worst, Kobe has been playing with the 2nd best supporting cast in the league for 4 years now. So like kblaze said, kobe needs an elite team (in terms of comparisons to the rest of the league) to win. Nothing different here than pretty much every superstar in history. Even the best players need the best help to win. History shows this.
And its not a knock on kobe, but people need to realize what it takes to win titles before knocking others.
And once again goes back to why titles are extremely over-rated when raking players.
Re: if Kobe was just as good as always but never played on super talented teams
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Originally Posted by The_Yearning
Until Lebron wins one right??
That post of Gyno's made me laugh, as the only reason Gasol will ultimately be considered and accepted into the hall of fame is because of his rings as a Laker. He's done a lot of great things for Spain, but he wouldn't be a hall of fame player had he stayed in Memphis.
Re: if Kobe was just as good as always but never played on super talented teams
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Originally Posted by Jacks3
Kobe's teams=overrated.
Back in 09 playoffs he won with essentially Odom/Gasol/Ariza.
Ariza is a role-player and has done nothing since leaving the Lakers.
Gasol was a very good top 15 player and nothing more.
Odom is a role-player.
His bench was crap, Bynum put up 6/4 ( ), Fisher was the worst starting PG.
2010
Artest--Great defensively, but his man-to-man D meant little in 2-4 series, and we're talking about perhaps the worst offensive starting SF in the league.
Odom--Struggled all year, role-player.
Gasol--Solid season, top 15 player, great playoff run
Fisher--Worst starting PG in league
Bynum--Put up 7/6 in the playoffs.OMGZ SO DOMINAT!!!!!!
Re: if Kobe was just as good as always but never played on super talented teams
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Originally Posted by 97 bulls
Kobe mde a tough shot. Like I said earlier, your bound to hit a few if you take enough bad shots.
Yea kobe did take a lot of bad shots in the fourth where everyone cleared out and he took tough fade aways.. but that shot turned out to be the deciding shot for the game.
You can't just say well kobe missed 4 of his last shots so he's bound to make this clutch shot with under a minute left to secure a victory for his team.
I mean thats like looking back at all the great shots in the history of the game(lets say horry in 02) and saying well horry missed his last three 3pointers before that, so that gamewinner was bound to go in.. it's just dumb. You're arbitrarily taking away credit from someone for past events that had no influence on the event were talking about.
Kobe scored what? 5 of his team's last 6 points in the closing minutes? Oh but he was bound to hit those game deciding shots after all the one's he missed previously I guess..
Re: if Kobe was just as good as always but never played on super talented teams
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Originally Posted by Jacks3
Bryant is a far better player than Iverson.
Personal accolades:
1 NBA MVP
4 All-Star Game MVP's
2 scoring titles
13X All-Star
8 All-NBA 1st Team selections
2 All-NBA 2nd Team selections
3rd All-Time in 40+ point games
3rd All-Time in 50+ point games
10 Time All-Defense
And that's only a small snippet. ROFL @ comparing that to Iverson.
Im not the biggest iverson fan and even minus the championships kobe has more accolades than him. But I think its fairly close. Ill check iverson accolades and see if the match up. Unless someone else has a general idea and can post allen iversons personal accolades.
Re: if Kobe was just as good as always but never played on super talented teams
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Originally Posted by LA_Showtime
That post of Gyno's made me laugh, as the only reason Gasol will ultimately be considered and accepted into the hall of fame is because of his rings as a Laker. He's done a lot of great things for Spain, but he wouldn't be a hall of fame player had he stayed in Memphis.
Exactly.. Gasols a very talented big man but the ONLY reason he would ever have a chance at making the hall is because of his involvement on this laker's team( where a healthy bynum is on his level).
Gasol pre-lakers? What.. two time allstar or some shit?
Re: if Kobe was just as good as always but never played on super talented teams
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Originally Posted by 97 bulls
Im not the biggest iverson fan and even minus the championships kobe has more accolades than him. But I think its fairly close. Ill check iverson accolades and see if the match up. Unless someone else has a general idea and can post allen iversons personal accolades.
I'm sorry, but Kobe is a much, much more dominant player than Iverson. What a joke.
Re: if Kobe was just as good as always but never played on super talented teams
Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 bulls
Im not the biggest iverson fan and even minus the championships kobe has more accolades than him. But I think its fairly close. Ill check iverson accolades and see if the match up. Unless someone else has a general idea and can post allen iversons personal accolades.
Nah dude you just said something stupid.. Iverson wasn't as dominant as kobe offensively or defensivey.
Kobe was a much more potent scorer and playmaker, has had better scoring outbreaks, has scored on higher volumes peak for peak , and he has been more efficient.
He is also TWICE the defensive player iverson was. Titles change none of this..
Re: if Kobe was just as good as always but never played on super talented teams
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Originally Posted by tpols
Exactly.. Gasols a very talented big man but the ONLY reason he would ever have a chance at making the hall is because of his involvement on this laker's team( where a healthy bynum is on his level).
Gasol pre-lakers? What.. two time allstar or some shit?
Please.
not to mention he was 0-12 in the playoffs before coming to the lakers.
he may get in off the strength of his lakers and international career, but that's it. because its the basketball hall of fame not nba hall of fame. same thing with manu, he might get in, but that's only if you factor in his international career.
just based on his nba career he wouldn't make it. honestly brad daugherty and shareef abdur-rahim were on the same level as gasol.
ridiculous that some people compare him to prime duncan and kg.
Last edited by MJ23forever : 02-27-2011 at 06:40 PM.
Re: if Kobe was just as good as always but never played on super talented teams
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Originally Posted by MJ23forever
not to mention he was 0-12 in the playoffs.
he may get in off the strength of his lakers and international career, but that's it.
just based on his nba career he wouldn't make it. honestly brad daugherty and shareef abdur-rahim were on the same level as gasol.
ridiculous that some people compare him to prime duncan and kg.
Definitely. Gasol is a very skilled big man but he's not a dominant player. He's never going to take over games for your team. He's a good second option but what makes the laker's deadly is the fact that they have three big men that are on his level(all solid allstars). It is the combination of these big men that make this team great, not Pau alone.
Re: if Kobe was just as good as always but never played on super talented teams
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpols
Exactly.. Gasols a very talented big man but the ONLY reason he would ever have a chance at making the hall is because of his involvement on this laker's team( where a healthy bynum is on his level).
Gasol pre-lakers? What.. two time allstar or some shit?
Please.
yeah Gasol was a good PF, not this dominant force that people with agendas make him out to be. The only all star appearance he had was because someone got injured IIRC
Re: if Kobe was just as good as always but never played on super talented teams
), Fisher was the worst starting PG.
