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Old 03-10-2011, 01:35 AM   #1
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Default Exposing Oscar Robertson

it didnt finally hit me till i saw him ranked top 5 on a magazines list of greatest players ever

1. 3 years from retirement he was the 3rd leading scorer on his team for his one and only ring

1970-71 Bucks

Playoff averages

1. Kareem Abdul Jabbar - 26.6ppg
2. Bob Dandridge - 19.2ppg
3. Oscar Robertson - 18.3ppg


2. he averages a triple double. but for the time he played his rebounding wasnt a great rebounder... not only did he only average double didget rebounds just 3 out of 14 years. for most of his career he averages around 6 rebounds

but not only that. a guy by the name of Elgin Baylor at the same height of 6-5 in the same season was able to grab 19 rebounds a game. and for most of his career ( which was around the same time as oscars ) was averaging over 12rpg for the most part.... proving that rebounding numbers were vastly inflated in the early 60's.


in todays nba a guy like oscar would be lucky to average 4 rebounds a game as a 6-5 pg.

and his one and only ring had about as much value as glen rice's did for the 2000 lakers.

in no way is he a top 5, or a top 10 player all time. averaging a triple double 1 season does not make him that.

hes top 15 in my book. time to wake up
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Old 03-10-2011, 01:42 AM   #2
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Default Re: Exposing Oscar Robertson

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffmoney1784
it didnt finally hit me till i saw him ranked top 5 on a magazines list of greatest players ever

1. 3 years from retirement he was the 3rd leading scorer on his team for his one and only ring

1970-71 Bucks

Playoff averages

1. Kareem Abdul Jabbar - 26.6ppg
2. Bob Dandridge - 19.2ppg
3. Oscar Robertson - 18.3ppg


2. he averages a triple double. but for the time he played his rebounding wasnt a great rebounder... not only did he only average double didget rebounds just 3 out of 14 years. for most of his career he averages around 6 rebounds

but not only that. a guy by the name of Elgin Baylor at the same height of 6-5 in the same season was able to grab 19 rebounds a game. and for most of his career ( which was around the same time as oscars ) was averaging over 12rpg for the most part.... proving that rebounding numbers were vastly inflated in the early 60's.


in todays nba a guy like oscar would be lucky to average 4 rebounds a game as a 6-5 pg.

and his one and only ring had about as much value as glen rice's did for the 2000 lakers.

in no way is he a top 5, or a top 10 player all time. averaging a triple double 1 season does not make him that.

hes top 15 in my book. time to wake up

First of all, at comparing Oscar's role on the '71 Bucks to Rice on the '00 Lakers. Not even close, Rice was expendable on that team while Oscar was still one of the better guards in the league and easily the second best player on the '71 Bucks.

With that being said, I agree that he's overrated. Here are some posts I made about Oscar recently.

Quote:
Oscar's triple double season is unbreakable because his team averaged around 125 possessions per 48 minutes instead of the 90-95 possesions per 48 that Shaq, Kobe and Duncan's teams got in the 2000's, that's the biggest problem I have with Oscar being ranked in the top 10. He had great stats, but not as historic when you consider the incredible pace. Plenty of players have put up great stats.

I just don't see an argument for Oscar over Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan or Kobe, all of whom won a lot more and dominated individually as well.


Quote:
I'm not even talking about the quality of the players, just the stats in context, and I feel Oscar benefits a lot from people not putting the stats into perspective.

As far as team success, here are Oscar's Royals records.

1961- 33-46
1962- 43-37
1963- 42-38
1964- 55-25
1965- 48-32
1966- 45-35
1967- 39-42
1968- 39-43
1969- 41-41
1970- 36-46

He missed the playoffs 4 times in those seasons and won a total of 2 playoff series with Cincinnati. And the excuse that he played during the Celtics era doesn't work because they only lost to the Celtics 3 times in the playoffs, less than the amount of times Ewing's Knicks lost to Jordan's Bulls and the same amount of times that Barkley lost to Jordan's Bulls.

So, 2 playoff series wins, no finals appearances, one 50 win season.

And the supporting cast argument doesn't work unless you use it for Garnett, Robinson, Ewing ect.

Oscar entered the league with future hall of famer Jack Tyman who would make 2 all-star teams while playing with Robertson('62 and '63) and the all-nba second team in '62, Wayne Embry who made 5 consecutive all-star teams while playing with Robertson('61-'65) and then he got Jerry Lucas who made 6 consecutive all-star teams while playing with Oscar('64-'69) as well as 3 all-nba first teams and 2 all-nba second teams in those years. Adrian Smith also made the '66 all-star team while playing with Oscar and Tom Van Arsdale made the 1970 all-star team while playing with Oscar.

Can't see a valid argument for Oscar being top 10.
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Old 03-10-2011, 01:48 AM   #3
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Default Re: Exposing Oscar Robertson

all im gonna say is... if kobe had 1 ring, and it came with an 18ppg average as a teams 3rd option...

he wouldnt even be top 20 all time in most peoples books. even if the dude had a historicly great stat line one year


these old farts dont know jack sh** about basketball... everyone from the 60's should just sit down and STFU...


you wont see me 40 years from now ranking guys like Gilbert arenas as one of the top players all time if he wins a ring riding dwight howards back.

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Old 03-10-2011, 01:58 AM   #4
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Default Re: Exposing Oscar Robertson

He wasn't a good defender. His teammates thought he was an a.sshole. & he led his team to only one 50+ win season as the #1 man. Yes, he averaged a triple double, but the competition wasn't the best & stats are inflated due to pace. Look at how much his rebound numbers dropped once the pace slowed down, no way he averages a triple double in today's league. No Team Success at his peak. Considered a prick by teammates. Inflated stats. No way this dude is in the top 10. I got him at #12 on my list with West at #11 & Hakeem at #10.
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Old 03-10-2011, 01:58 AM   #5
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Default Re: Exposing Oscar Robertson

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffmoney1784
it didnt finally hit me till i saw him ranked top 5 on a magazines list of greatest players ever

1. 3 years from retirement he was the 3rd leading scorer on his team for his one and only ring

1970-71 Bucks

Playoff averages

1. Kareem Abdul Jabbar - 26.6ppg
2. Bob Dandridge - 19.2ppg
3. Oscar Robertson - 18.3ppg

Great way to reduce his total game down to PPG. Nice that you totally omit everything else. Oh, and btw once he left the bucks they went to shit, forcing Kareem to demand a trade to LA, where he helped bring some championships to the lakers. So...stop being retarded.

Quote:
2. he averages a triple double. but for the time he played his rebounding wasnt a great rebounder... not only did he only average double didget rebounds just 3 out of 14 years. for most of his career he averages around 6 rebounds

He actually averaged a triple double if you look at the totals over his first 5 seasons. And he was doing this while playing with one of the league's top rebounders in Jerry Lucas.

Quote:
but not only that. a guy by the name of Elgin Baylor at the same height of 6-5 in the same season was able to grab 19 rebounds a game. and for most of his career ( which was around the same time as oscars ) was averaging over 12rpg for the most part.... proving that rebounding numbers were vastly inflated in the early 60's.

Rebounding numbers were inflated, as there were more field goal attempts and thus more misses. So, it's not always the best way to look at raw numbers across time, but how players did against their peers during the times they competed against each other. So the question remains: if all his numbers are inflated and so easy to do...why didn't anybody else manage to play at his level? Even his peers maintain he's the greatest individual player ever.
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Old 03-10-2011, 02:01 AM   #6
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Default Re: Exposing Oscar Robertson

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffmoney1784
all im gonna say is... if kobe had 1 ring, and it came with an 18ppg average as a teams 3rd option...

he wouldnt even be top 20 all time in most peoples books. even if the dude had a historicly great stat line one year

Look at how his fanbase and the league made him a god in 2006 with his great individual statistical and history-making season on a mediocre team that went nowhere. I guess his string of 50 point games and his 81 are meaningless to you since the team didn't win much. Oh wait...you are drowning in hypocrisy right now.
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Old 03-10-2011, 02:02 AM   #7
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Default Re: Exposing Oscar Robertson

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffmoney1784
all im gonna say is... if kobe had 1 ring, and it came with an 18ppg average as a teams 3rd option...

he wouldnt even be top 50 all time in most peoples books. even if the dude had a historicly great stat line one year


these old farts dont know jack sh** about basketball... everyone from the 60's should just sit down and STFU...


you wont see me 40 years from now ranking guys like jason richardson as one of the top players all time if he wins a ring riding dwight howards back.


I get what you're saying(to some extent) and I don't see an argument for Oscar over Kobe, but come on, Oscar wasn't Milwaukee's 3rd options, there are a couple of games available from that season and you'll see that Oscar was definitely their 2nd best player.

Oscar was top 5 in MVP voting in 1971 and on the all-nba second team.

Regular Season
Kareem- 32/16/3, 57 FG%, 61 TS%, 40 mpg
Oscar- 19/6/8, 50 FG%, 56 TS%, 39 mpg
Dandridge- 18/8/4, 51 FG%, 55 TS%, 36 mpg

Playoffs
Kareem- 27/17/3, 52 FG%, 55 TS%, 41 mpg
Oscar- 18/5/9, 49 FG%, 53 TS% 38 mpg
Dandridge- 19/10/3, 46 FG%, 50 TS%

Finals
Kareem- 27/19/3, 61 FG%, 63 TS%, 42 mpg
Oscar- 24/5/10, 52 FG%, 59 TS%, 41 mpg
Dandridge- 20/10/4, 52 FG%, 55 TS%, 39 mpg

Pretty obvious that Kareem was clearly number 1, Oscar was clearly 2 and Dandridge was clearly 3.
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Old 03-10-2011, 02:05 AM   #8
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Default Re: Exposing Oscar Robertson

Nobody but the OP got exposed here.
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Old 03-10-2011, 02:10 AM   #9
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Default Re: Exposing Oscar Robertson

nice post above, made the thread worthwhile and hilarious
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Old 03-10-2011, 02:17 AM   #10
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Default Re: Exposing Oscar Robertson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapallaz
Nobody but the OP got exposed here.

its called reverse trolling

he might not be as bad as i made him look. but sometimes trashing someone unmercifully is the only way to get people to look up stuff for themselves. and in trying to prove me wrong. they prove me right... like the ones who say "he wasnt trash, he was above average. well you just proved my point

it works better than creating an unbiased positive argument.
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Old 03-10-2011, 02:18 AM   #11
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Default Re: Exposing Oscar Robertson

I get the feeling most people who actually remember Oscar rank him where they do not because of rings but because he was just great at basketball. Kinda like Jordan 87 to 90. He was already top 10 all time if not top 3-5. As far as ability to play...he was about as good as he would ever be. If hes the GOAT he was it well before he won a ring. They could see Oscar as Jordan...just never having it all put together before his decline.

Which I wouldnt find unreasonable. You are as good as you are not as good as your resume. But people odnt like to look at it that way because it requires more than a copy/paste list of accomplishments to decide how good a guy was.

So you have people calling George Mikan top 10-20 all time ahead of guys like Ewing who no doubt did every single thing better....just because its easy to justify when you ignore basketball.

I get the feeling Oscar got his ranking off the respect his peers had for his basketball ability. Which I always found more important than just rings. Besides Oscar was putting up 25/8/6 on 51% shooting before he joined the Bucks. I suspect he didnt just forget how to play.

To compare him to Glen Rice on the lakers because of low PPG that clearly isnt an indication of talent just seems unfair. It shows a lot of the problem that I have with the whole rings thing really. Judge guys on rings...then by how they fit into the team that won it. And assign values to rings 30 years apart probably not having seen more than a few minutes of how one was won.

In the finals he did...

22/7/7
22/10/6
20/12/4
30/9/3(75% shooting) in the closeout game.

24/10/5 on 52% shooting in the finals. I dont see that as something to laugh at out of an aging star who by all accounts was key to running the team and a great leader at that point who had stopped caring about numbers and only wanted to win.

I cant say I saw much of that series. But I have seen a bit here and there.

I wouldnt laugh at his performance based on what I saw. I dont remember Glen Rice doing shit in the finals. Thoug having just checked he had 1 good game(21 points) and an ok one. But some awful ones too(1-8, 3-9, and 2 3-8 games). Rice wasnt doing much in 2000.

Giving him equal credit because he was LAs 3rd leading scorer and oscar was the Bucks just seems.....eh.

Just feels like losing touch with what matters.

I very much doubt Rice was as key to the Lakers as Oscar to the Bucks. I dont know their record with or without him that year...but all ive read suggests he was major.

If he wanted to keep doing numbers he no doubt could have. But he didnt care.

If he didnt care what he produced while winning why should I?

Oscar may be overrated at times. But I dont see how anything he did on the Bucks is really causing it. People dont mention Oscar leading a team to a title anyway. They say Kareem did. As they should. Doesnt mean Oscar had no more to do with it than Glen Rice to the Lakers.
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Old 03-10-2011, 02:21 AM   #12
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Default Re: Exposing Oscar Robertson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
I get the feeling most people who actually remember Oscar rank him where they do not because of rings but because he was just great at basketball. Kinda like Jordan 87 to 90. He was already top 10 all time .




a guy with no accomplishments and just raw tallent on losing teams in a 5 year career is NOT a top 10 player all time

what the hell are these jordan *******s smoking anyway. they make us kobe fans look tame

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Old 03-10-2011, 02:22 AM   #13
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Default Re: Exposing Oscar Robertson

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffmoney1784


a guy with no accomplishments and just raw tallent on losing teams in a 5 year career is NOT a top 10 player all time

what the hell are these jordan *******s smoking anyway. they make us kobe fans look tame

Simple sentences such as: "As far as ability to play...he was about as good as he would ever be" are too complicated for you to grasp I guess.
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Old 03-10-2011, 02:24 AM   #14
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Default Re: Exposing Oscar Robertson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Showtime
Simple sentences such as: "As far as ability to play...he was about as good as he would ever be" are too complicated for you to grasp I guess.


going by that... blake griffin is a top 20 player all time right now

and kobe was top 5 all time by age 23

who the hell goes by "flashes of brilliance" in regular season basketball on 30 win teams to judge all time status?


jordan cracked top 10 all time after his 1st ring in 91

took arguable goat status in 1996 after ring #4

no way was he goat over kareem in 93 with 3 rings, 3mvps, 9 seasons
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Old 03-10-2011, 02:25 AM   #15
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Default Re: Exposing Oscar Robertson

Quote:
a guy with no accomplishments and just raw tallent on losing teams in a 5 year career is NOT a top 10 player all time

what the hell are these jordan *******s smoking anyway. they make us kobe fans look tame

You cant possibly believe 10 people ever played basketball better than Jordan could as of 1990....so im not sure why you even said that. There is no way you really just missed the point.

Just looking to argue?
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