Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > InsideHoops Main Basketball Forums > NBA Forum

NBA Forum NBA Message Board - NBA Fan Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-10-2011, 06:48 AM   #31
Blue&Orange
NBA lottery pick
 
Blue&Orange's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,923
Default Re: Exposing Oscar Robertson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
You are as good as you are not as good as your resume. But people odnt like to look at it that way because it requires more than a copy/paste list of accomplishments to decide how good a guy was.
Sorry to say only in your country. For example lets look at the biggest and more important sport in the world, soccer. Last year there was this guy, Wesley Sneijder, that wonned every title possible with his club and went to the world finals with his national team, losing only to a strong Spain. Winning the best player award of the tournament, and he lost the award of best player of the word to Leonel Messi, a guy that won a title in Spain where basically only two teams can win, so not really a big deal. So why did he win? Well he is the best player period. Just like Maradona is considered the best player all time despite being like 100 guys with more titles than him.

I once made a thread calling out how dumb your raking system is, all i got was some random troll posting a pic calling me dumb.

People where arguing if kobe was top 10 or not after he won another title, basically people where arguing if Kobe was top 10 or not because of Gasol, cause without him there would be no title, and somehow that seems to be smart and intelligent.

We are talking about a team sport, and as the Heat are proving even role players are important, let alone having a good second and third option, and yet you guys religiously rank individual performance based on collective accomplishments.
Blue&Orange is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 06:50 AM   #32
Blue&Orange
NBA lottery pick
 
Blue&Orange's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,923
Default Re: Exposing Oscar Robertson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holy Random
Honestly I don't know why Kblaze and Showtime waste's there time talking with these pre teen Kobe jockers. I hope you guys don't stop posting because you are sick of retards like those two.
Kobe went ring chasing since he was 18 years old, and he demanded a trade as soon as he wasn't in a good position to win, so off-course kobe lovers are going to tell u all that matters is rings.
Blue&Orange is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 07:03 AM   #33
STATUTORY
Bear Chested Da Brawn
 
STATUTORY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,207
Default Re: Exposing Oscar Robertson

Quote:
Originally Posted by mananmater
Oscar robertson is probably number 4 on the list of alltime greatest retired players, dude had moves, a disclaimer to anyone reading these posts, 90 percent of the people engaging in this conversation including myself were either not born or very young when he was an active player so many of the people on here who say a lot about him and dont mention they were old enough to see or read about or hear him play dont know what there talking about, so take these posts with no more than a grain of salt.


that's how we rank players now? cause they got moves.

STATUTORY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 07:05 AM   #34
griffmoney1784
Banned
 
griffmoney1784's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 910
Default Re: Exposing Oscar Robertson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue&Orange
Sorry to say only in your country. For example lets look at the biggest and more important sport in the world, soccer. Last year there was this guy, Wesley Sneijder, that wonned every title possible with his club and went to the world finals with his national team, losing only to a strong Spain. Winning the best player award of the tournament, and he lost the award of best player of the word to Leonel Messi, a guy that won a title in Spain where basically only two teams can win, so not really a big deal. So why did he win? Well he is the best player period. Just like Maradona is considered the best player all time despite being like 100 guys with more titles than him.

I once made a thread calling out how dumb your raking system is, all i got was some random troll posting a pic calling me dumb.

People where arguing if kobe was top 10 or not after he won another title, basically people where arguing if Kobe was top 10 or not because of Gasol, cause without him there would be no title, and somehow that seems to be smart and intelligent.

We are talking about a team sport, and as the Heat are proving even role players are important, let alone having a good second and third option, and yet you guys religiously rank individual performance based on collective accomplishments.


lol@ comparing big team sports to small team sports

cant compare the impact of a hockey/basketball player to those of soccar/football/baseball

5 on 5 hockey+goalie/basketball vs 9 vs 9 baseball/10 vs 10 soccer+goalie/ 11 vs 11 football



1 man can have a much greater impact on basketball/hockey team success... while in the other sports its a total team game and you can have the absolute best player and lose nearly every game if your not good at every position


but as we have seen in hockey 1 goalie or 1 great play maker can make all the difference. and in basketball 1 great center or 1 great guard can make all the difference

which is why wining is so highly rated in basketball and hockey...

like when alex rodriguez won mvp on the last place rangers. no one cared because the greatest players could average 100 home runs/200 rbi's and it still wouldnt get them a win without a bullpen

football does have 1 position however that values rings... QB's... but even then its a stretch.

so please dont ever again try and make an argument against basketball by using a different sport as your base argument.
griffmoney1784 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 07:11 AM   #35
griffmoney1784
Banned
 
griffmoney1784's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 910
Default Re: Exposing Oscar Robertson

no ones ever heard of an elite mvp level player with rings but no skills


but we have heard of mvp level players with skills and no rings


because all mvp elite level players have skills. its what they do with those skills that sets them apart from others...


take rings, accomplishments, records, awards away and michael jordan is just another dominique wilkins


when we look at tim duncan.... his game has no style, no flash, no excitement... its boring and no one likes to watch it... if it wasnt for his accomplishments no one would know he was better than kevin garnett

but he is....

because he gets it done when it matters. garnett had to bail on his team and ride pierce to a championship.

thats the difference we needed to see to make the judgement
griffmoney1784 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 07:16 AM   #36
madmax
Decent college freshman
 
madmax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,875
Default Re: Exposing Oscar Robertson

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffmoney1784
no ones ever heard of an elite mvp level player with rings but no skills


but we have heard of mvp level players with skills and no rings


because all mvp elite level players have skills. its what they do with those skills that sets them apart from others...


take rings, accomplishments, records, awards away and michael jordan is just another dominique wilkins


when we look at tim duncan.... his game has no style, no flash, no excitement... its boring and no one likes to watch it... if it wasnt for his accomplishments no one would know he was better than kevin garnett

but he is....

because he gets it done when it matters. garnett had to bail on his team and ride pierce to a championship.

thats the difference we needed to see to make the judgement

this is the reason why morons like you are ruining this website more and more. Garnett was the KEY reason why Celtics won that 2008 title - he was doing everything for his team to achieve that goal and I'm sure you called Gasol "soft" after he was shut down in the finals by this guy. That was the main reason why Celts won, not because of Pierce's scoring. If you had an ounce of brain cells in your head, you'd understanf this too.

Last edited by madmax : 03-10-2011 at 07:27 AM.
madmax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 07:25 AM   #37
griffmoney1784
Banned
 
griffmoney1784's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 910
Default Re: Exposing Oscar Robertson

Quote:
Originally Posted by madmax
this is the reason why morons like are are ruining this website more and more. Garnett was the KEY reason why Celtics won that 2008 title - he was doing everything for his team to achieve that goal and I'm sure you called Gasol "soft" after he was shut down in the finals by this guy. That was the main reason why Celts won, not because of Pierce's scoring. If you had an ounce of brain cells in your head, you'd understanf this too.


garnetts a pu**sy

shyd away from every confrontation in his life

shyd away from every big shot in his life

picks fights with people half his size

hes lucky he has guys like allen and pierce to knock down the big ones for him

dude lacks a sack ... always has always will...

lol@ turning down the trade to boston until ray was traded there
griffmoney1784 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 07:29 AM   #38
griffmoney1784
Banned
 
griffmoney1784's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 910
Default Re: Exposing Oscar Robertson

if i was just a hater...

why would i give it up so highly to ray allen and paul pierce...

they have what it takes. theyre real players.

i dont think i can remember a single time garnett has hit a game winner or made a huge play down the stretch of a playoff game... in 15 years
griffmoney1784 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 07:50 AM   #39
PHILA
Decent college freshman
 
PHILA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,721
Default Re: Exposing Oscar Robertson

The Big O: my life, my times, my game - Oscar Robertson (2003)


http://books.google.com/books?id=fs6...ge&q &f=false

PHILA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 07:53 AM   #40
griffmoney1784
Banned
 
griffmoney1784's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 910
Default Re: Exposing Oscar Robertson

Quote:
Originally Posted by PHILA
The Big O: my life, my times, my game - Oscar Robertson (2003)


http://books.google.com/books?id=fs6...ge&q &f=false



just like i said... this dude lives off his triple double season... its the first thing we see when we click on that link... a line from one regular season

what a chump



get a finals mvp or be an equal part to a title... then get back to me... your just a 1 time pippen
griffmoney1784 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 08:04 AM   #41
PHILA
Decent college freshman
 
PHILA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,721
Default Re: Exposing Oscar Robertson

Read the whole chapter.
PHILA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 08:19 AM   #42
jlauber
3-time NBA All-Star
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,831
Default Re: Exposing Oscar Robertson

I have mentioned this before, but I guess I have to go thru it again. This "PACE" argument is getting old.

I have read some idiots here who claim that players of the 60's stats would only be HALF of what they are today. Even the more intelligent posters claim that the numbers were inflated by one-third. BOTH are completely off base.

In Wilt's historic 61-62 season, the average team scored 119 ppg on .426 shooting. In MJ's '87 season, the average team scored 110 ppg on .480 shooting. In Kobe's '06 season, the average team scored 97 ppg on .454 shooting.

So, if we reduce Oscar's 61-62 season by one-third, the league would have then averaged less than 80 ppg...which is a far cry from TODAY's NBA average of 100 ppg.

Furthermore, Oscar generally averaged between 20-23 FGAs in the prime of his career. Are we to believe that Oscar playing in 2011 would only be capable of getting 13-16 FGAs per game?

And, then there is the one stat that is seldom brought up here...LEAGUE AVERAGE FG%. Oscar shot .478 in 61-62, in a league that shot .426. In his next season, he shot .518 in a league that shot .441. The FACT was, Robertson CONSISTENTLY shot way over the league average in his prime. Why is that important? Take Oscar's 61-62 season for example. Divide his .478 by .426, and mutliply it by MJ's '87 league average of .480. and he would have shot .539. Divide his .518 season by .441, and multiply it by .480 and he would have shot .564! Only Magic's .565 season has ever been greater by a PG, and Oscar was averaging over 30 ppg in the year in which he shot .518.

As for Oscar's assists, he was consistently averaging 11 apg in his prime years. And, this was in an era when assists were recorded much differently, and were harder to come by. My god, for those that use "pace" against the greats of the 60's, how come team's averaged nearly the same amount of assists in '62 as they did in 2010, even though there were more shots taken back in the 60's. In '62 the league averaged 1915 apg per team. In 2010 it was 1742 per team. That is nowhere near a ONE-THIRD differential.

The only area where an intelligent poster could argue against Oscar, or the other greats of the early 60's, would be in rebounding. Here again, the crackpots that have no clue, will come up with some ridiculous number stating that rebounds would be about HALF of what they are today. The FACT was, in Chamberlain's greatest rebounding season, and removing team rebounds, which were added to the totals until he retired, his team averaged 66 rpg. In Rodman's greatest season, his team averaged 44 rpg...or Rodman's league was at two-thirds of Wilt's. So, reducing Wilt's numbers, he would have been right with Rodman. Of course, while Rodman shrunk dramatically in the post-season, Wilt significantly elevated his rebounding in the playoffs. Chamberlain had eight post-seasons of over 24.7, with highs of 29 and eveb 30 rpg. Rodman dropped from 13.8 down to 9.9 in his post-seasons, and his high was 16 rpg in a series that only went three games. Chamberlain actually more than DOUBLED Rodman in the post-season, considerably more than doubled in fact.

So, I would argue that Oscar would average at least as many apg in today's NBA, and more than likely, MORE. And only a fool would believe that Oscar could only get 15 FGAs per game in today's NBA, when players like Kobe were getting over 27 in '06. How about this? Give Oscar 27 FGAs in '06, and on an adjusted .509 shooting percentage, and he would have scored MORE ppg in '06 than he did in '62.

Ultimately, IMO, Oscar, and at his peak, would probably be a 30-8-10 .500+ shooter in TODAY's NBA...even adjusting for this poorly argued point of "pace."

Having said all of that, I still see NO case for Oscar over Kareem. While I don't rate Kareem as highly as some here do, I have him at #5 (behind Russell, MJ, Magic, and Wilt), and I just can't see Oscar even in my top-10. Clearly, though, his individual play would have put him in the 11-15 area.

In any case, I am getting so sick-and-tired of the PACE arguments against the great players of the 60's.
jlauber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 08:26 AM   #43
griffmoney1784
Banned
 
griffmoney1784's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 910
Default Re: Exposing Oscar Robertson

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
I have mentioned this before, but I guess I have to go thru it again. This "PACE" argument is getting old.

I have read some idiots here who claim that players of the 60's stats would only be HALF of what they are today. Even the more intelligent posters claim that the numbers were inflated by one-third. BOTH are completely off base.

In Wilt's historic 61-62 season, the average team scored 119 ppg on .426 shooting. In MJ's '87 season, the average team scored 110 ppg on .480 shooting. In Kobe's '06 season, the average team scored 97 ppg on .454 shooting.

So, if we reduce Oscar's 61-62 season by one-third, the league would have then averaged less than 80 ppg...which is a far cry from TODAY's NBA average of 100 ppg.

Furthermore, Oscar generally averaged between 20-23 FGAs in the prime of his career. Are we to believe that Oscar playing in 2011 would only be capable of getting 13-16 FGAs per game?

And, then there is the one stat that is seldom brought up here...LEAGUE AVERAGE FG%. Oscar shot .478 in 61-62, in a league that shot .426. In his next season, he shot .518 in a league that shot .441. The FACT was, Robertson CONSISTENTLY shot way over the league average in his prime. Why is that important? Take Oscar's 61-62 season for example. Divide his .478 by .426, and mutliply it by MJ's '87 league average of .480. and he would have shot .539. Divide his .518 season by .441, and multiply it by .480 and he would have shot .564! Only Magic's .565 season has ever been greater by a PG, and Oscar was averaging over 30 ppg in the year in which he shot .518.

As for Oscar's assists, he was consistently averaging 11 apg in his prime years. And, this was in an era when assists were recorded much differently, and were harder to come by. My god, for those that use "pace" against the greats of the 60's, how come team's averaged nearly the same amount of assists in '62 as they did in 2010, even though there were more shots taken back in the 60's. In '62 the league averaged 1915 apg per team. In 2010 it was 1742 per team. That is nowhere near a ONE-THIRD differential.

The only area where an intelligent poster could argue against Oscar, or the other greats of the early 60's, would be in rebounding. Here again, the crackpots that have no clue, will come up with some ridiculous number stating that rebounds would be about HALF of what they are today. The FACT was, in Chamberlain's greatest rebounding season, and removing team rebounds, which were added to the totals until he retired, his team averaged 66 rpg. In Rodman's greatest season, his team averaged 44 rpg...or Rodman's league was at two-thirds of Wilt's. So, reducing Wilt's numbers, he would have been right with Rodman. Of course, while Rodman shrunk dramatically in the post-season, Wilt significantly elevated his rebounding in the playoffs. Chamberlain had eight post-seasons of over 24.7, with highs of 29 and eveb 30 rpg. Rodman dropped from 13.8 down to 9.9 in his post-seasons, and his high was 16 rpg in a series that only went three games. Chamberlain actually more than DOUBLED Rodman in the post-season, considerably more than doubled in fact.

So, I would argue that Oscar would average at least as many apg in today's NBA, and more than likely, MORE. And only a fool would believe that Oscar could only get 15 FGAs per game in today's NBA, when players like Kobe were getting over 27 in '06. How about this? Give Oscar 27 FGAs in '06, and on an adjusted .509 shooting percentage, and he would have scored MORE ppg in '06 than he did in '62.

Ultimately, IMO, Oscar, and at his peak, would probably be a 30-8-10 .500+ shooter in TODAY's NBA...even adjusting for this poorly argued point of "pace."

Having said all of that, I still see NO case for Oscar over Kareem. While I don't rate Kareem as highly as some here do, I have him at #5 (behind Russell, MJ, Magic, and Wilt), and I just can't see Oscar even in my top-10. Clearly, though, his individual play would have put him in the 11-15 area.

In any case, I am getting so sick-and-tired of the PACE arguments against the great players of the 60's.


6 foot 5 elgin baylor routinely averaged near 20 rebound per game seasons


NEXT
griffmoney1784 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 08:35 AM   #44
jlauber
3-time NBA All-Star
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,831
Default Re: Exposing Oscar Robertson

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffmoney1784
6 foot 5 elgin baylor routinely averaged near 20 rebound per game seasons


NEXT

So what???

He was a GREAT rebounder at 6-5. Even reducing his rebounding to 2010 levels, and he would still have averaged over 13 rpg.

And if height was the main factor in rebounding, how come there has never been a 7-3+ player to have ever led the NBA in rebounding? How come 7-2 Motumbo, with two, and 7-2 Kareem with only one...both in LONG careers BTW, are the only two 7-2 centers to have ever won a rebounding title? And BTW, Kareem barely edged 6-9 Cowens in the year he won his lone rebounding title, and 6-7 Unseld and 6-7 Silas were right behind? And how come 6-3 175 lb. Fat Lever was leading his TEAM in rebounding in the late 80's, in leagues that had the tallest players ever in NBA history? How come 6-8 Rodman could win SEVEN rebounding titles in an era of 7-1 Robinson, 7-1 Shaq, and many other seven-footers? How come 6-6 (or shorter) Charles Barkley could win a rebounding title? How come 6-7 Truck Robinson could win a rebounding title? How come, even in the 00's, that a 6-7 Ben Wallace could win TWO rebounding titles?

And, the obvious, of course...how can a 6-9 WHITE guy not only be leading the league in rebounding in TODAY's NBA, but by a significant margin? Wilt must be rolling over in his grave.

Last edited by jlauber : 03-10-2011 at 08:38 AM.
jlauber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2011, 08:38 AM   #45
griffmoney1784
Banned
 
griffmoney1784's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 910
Default Re: Exposing Oscar Robertson

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
So what???

He was a GREAT rebounder at 6-5. Even reducing his rebounding to 2010 levels, and he would still have averaged over 13 rpg. And if height was the main factor in rebounding, how come there has never been a 7-3+ player to have ever led the NBA in rebounding? How come 7-2 Motumbo, with two, and 7-2 Kareem with only one...both in LONG careers BTW, are the only two 7-2 centers to have ever won a rebounding title? And BTW, Kareem barely edged 6-9 Cowens in the year he won his lone rebounding title, and 6-7 Unseld and 6-7 Silas were right behind? And how come 6-3 175 lb. Fat Lever was leading his TEAM in rebounding in the late 80's, in leagues that had the tallest players ever in NBA history? How come 6-8 Rodman could win SEVEN rebounding titles in an era of 7-1 Robinson, 7-1 Shaq, and many other seven-footers? How come 6-6 (or shorter) Charles Barkley could win a rebounding title? How come 6-7 Truck Robinson could win a rebounding title? How come, even in the 00's, that a 6-7 Ben Wallace could win TWO rebounding titles?


griffmoney1784 is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:53 AM.




NBA Basketball Forum Key Links:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
NBA Mock Draft
NBA Free Agents
All-Star Weekend
---
High School Basketball
Streetball
---
InsideHoops Twitter
Search Our Site













Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy