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Old 03-29-2011, 02:32 PM   #16
MalikWadeCounty
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Default Re: How valuable is Tim Duncan to the Spurs? Nearly MVP level?

Even now, I think Duncan is more athletic than people give him credit for. I think when discussin great forwards, folks tend to look at more powerful dudes (like Karl Marlone) or explosive scorers (Petitt), etc.

But Duncan has dominated a position that requires one to be efficient at several things for well over a decade. And although he's always had a solid supporting cast, I credit him for keeping his team relevant during this time as well.
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Old 03-29-2011, 03:17 PM   #17
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Default Re: How valuable is Tim Duncan to the Spurs? Nearly MVP level?

Can we just give Tim Duncan the all-time underrated award already? People always sleep on him, then when he's removed from the team and they take a huge drop people suddenly remember, "Oh yeah that Tim Duncan guy is an alright player.."
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Old 03-29-2011, 03:23 PM   #18
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Default Re: How valuable is Tim Duncan to the Spurs? Nearly MVP level?

Tim Duncan is the most important player to the Spurs. They have absolutely no size inside without him, and would get pounded by teams when any type of talent inside. His intangibles, leadership, and experience can not be understated. He is a very cerebral player. While his physical abilities are in clear decline, he still impacts the game a lot for the Spurs bc he knows defensive rotations and he can still do damage on the block.
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Old 03-29-2011, 04:47 PM   #19
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Default Re: How valuable is Tim Duncan to the Spurs? Nearly MVP level?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbine
I never said or claimed that there was a logical case for Duncan over Bird. In fact I said the opposite.

As far as Bird/Duncan go in their peaks,

I come back to what exactly wins in the NBA - because that's what I'm interested in, who's going to help me win?

Offensively, Bird's peak was on par with any player in the history of the league. When you factor in scoring, shooting, movement off the ball, passing, post game, etc....Bird is clearly above Duncan.

I then turn to other parts of the game, such as defense....and Duncan has a tremedous edge there against Bird. I ask myself "what wins in the NBA," and defense is CLEARLY at the top of the list. Especially interior defense.

Rebounding is another big thing that contributes to winning basketball. Duncan has a considerable edge there, as well - I know Bird averaged 10+ rebounds, but 10 rebounds back then isn't the same as 10 rebounds in 2000's - and just having watched them a considerable amount....Duncan is one of the finest traffic and fundamental (boxing out) rebounders of all-time. Easily in the 1st class of rebounders ever.

Intangibles/little things - Who really knows? We aren't around them as teammates, or in the locker rooms with them, etc to pass along a educated judgement when comparing both as leaders off the court. What I can tell you is both, for the most part, played big when it mattered. Both were clutch. Both were great on the floor leaders. Both have "it."

If I'm starting a team and I can have Prime Bird or Prime Duncan to build around.... I can't honestly say I'd rather have one or the other. They're that close. It'd be hard pressed to go against the traditional big man, but Larry was so unique and special as well. It's a tough call, that's the point. Nothing "easy" or "clear' about it.

Prime vs. prime is just part of the equation to me, when you dig deeper and compare their accolades and longevity....it really becomes a crap-shoot.
It actually is really clear and easy, because the only thing Duncan obviously has is defense. Duncan in his best 2-3 years could give you 24-13 in the playoffs, and some really good shotblocking, some of the best ever. That's great, but really, let's not lie there are a bunch of guys all time who could replicate Duncan offensively and rebounding wise. Nobody at the SF could score as well as Bird, rebound as well as Bird, pass as well as Bird, was as clutch as Bird, and on top of that he was a pretty good defender. No other SF is going to give you anything like 28-10-7, except maybe Lebron. I don't know how that's not just a blatantly obvious Choice.
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Old 03-29-2011, 04:47 PM   #20
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Default Re: How valuable is Tim Duncan to the Spurs? Nearly MVP level?

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnax1
I was just looking at this team, and what he does for this team is probably under rated. Looking at the roster, they're basically the Rockets without him. Which, of course is pretty good, but his defensive impact isn't really being looked at nearly enough. He's dropped off on offense, but he's having his best defensive season in quite a long time. I'd go as far to say that only KG and Dwight are playing better on defense this season.
So while, no he's probably not MVP level, don't underestimate how good this guy is just because he's got mediocre stats.

nice comparison.
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Old 03-29-2011, 05:16 PM   #21
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Default Re: How valuable is Tim Duncan to the Spurs? Nearly MVP level?

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnax1
It actually is really clear and easy, because the only thing Duncan obviously has is defense. Duncan in his best 2-3 years could give you 24-13 in the playoffs, and some really good shotblocking, some of the best ever. That's great, but really, let's not lie there are a bunch of guys all time who could replicate Duncan offensively and rebounding wise.

What does it matter if a "bunch" of other all-time guys could give you the offense/defense/rebounding that Duncan would give you when we're comparing Bird and Duncan?

Just to be clear, the only other guys who at their peak could give you that type of offense/defense/rebounding combination was Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem and perhaps current Dwight (still have to see him in the playoffs) along with Duncan. Garnett could get you the numbers as well, though it's arguable if he had as much impact, mostly due to being a jump shooter on offense, and not really an all-time great interior anchor on defense.

Quote:
Nobody at the SF could score as well as Bird, rebound as well as Bird, pass as well as Bird, was as clutch as Bird, and on top of that he was a pretty good defender. No other SF is going to give you anything like 28-10-7, except maybe Lebron. I don't know how that's not just a blatantly obvious Choice.

I agree, which is why Bird was special and unique. But it doesn't clearly overcome the fact that Duncan gives me proven winning ingredients like superior defense and rebounding and an offensive game that was really valuable to the team.

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Old 03-29-2011, 05:22 PM   #22
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Default Re: How valuable is Tim Duncan to the Spurs? Nearly MVP level?

He isn't even close to MVP level this season. Manu is there biggest part.
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Old 03-29-2011, 08:39 PM   #23
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Default Re: How valuable is Tim Duncan to the Spurs? Nearly MVP level?

No Timmy. No Ring.
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Old 03-29-2011, 08:48 PM   #24
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Default Re: How valuable is Tim Duncan to the Spurs? Nearly MVP level?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbine
What does it matter if a "bunch" of other all-time guys could give you the offense/defense/rebounding that Duncan would give you when we're comparing Bird and Duncan?

Just to be clear, the only other guys who at their peak could give you that type of offense/defense/rebounding combination was Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem and perhaps current Dwight (still have to see him in the playoffs) along with Duncan. Garnett could get you the numbers as well, though it's arguable if he had as much impact, mostly due to being a jump shooter on offense, and not really an all-time great interior anchor on defense.



I agree, which is why Bird was special and unique. But it doesn't clearly overcome the fact that Duncan gives me proven winning ingredients like superior defense and rebounding and an offensive game that was really valuable to the team.

I just don't think you're looking at Bird's impact in the full. Bird gave you 28 ppg, with pretty high efficiency, best passing at the SF position ever (unless Magic counts) best rebounder at the SF position, and an all-NBA defender. Duncan is the best shot blocker at the PF position, is he the best scorer? No. There are quite a few guys who can replicate his rebounding and scoring, but nobody can replicate anything Bird did on the offensive side in terms of impact. Bird really was on Jordan's level on offense.
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Old 03-29-2011, 11:35 PM   #25
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Default Re: How valuable is Tim Duncan to the Spurs? Nearly MVP level?

I still maintain that Duncan is the most important player as the Spurs are currently constructed because of the weakness of their frontline. The Spurs have great depth in the backcourt and can stand a loss of either Parker or Manu more than that of TD because of the great play of Hill and Neal this year.

The big men are an almost 37 year old Dice, 6-7 2nd year Blair, choking Bonner and rookie Splitter who has sadly been glued to the bench all year. Their defense in particular takes a hit especially with the Blair/Bonner combination.

Regarding the Duncan vs Bird, don't know how some people can say it's not even close. While Bird was better than Duncan on offense, IMO the difference is greater for TD on the defensive end. If I'm starting a franchise, I'd pick the great big man over a great wing/guard (unless it's MJ). TD is very easy to build around. With Bird, I'd still have to find big men - not easy to find them especially of the quality of McHale and Parrish.
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