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Old 03-30-2011, 07:18 PM   #31
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Default Re: Defensive rating (DRtg) How you calculate it and use it

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpols
Wait.. you're saying that the more possesions a team uses and the faster they play, the better chance they have at scoring? How does that make sense?

The 80s and below. And a lot of fast pace teams. It's also proven by this:

http://arturogalletti.files.wordpres...ng?w=510&h=296

Usually the more possessions, the more shots, the more chance of scoring. Kind'a like how if Kobe only takes 10 shots one game and take 20 shots the other game. The 20 shots give him more chance of scoring (not counting FTAs).

Compare the number of possessions to the point total, and you'll see as the total possessions goes down, the point total also goes down. This is true every decade. It's one of the reasons why 09-10 has more points than 03-04. More possessions and faster pacing.

Also check their FGA. The 80s have more FGA than today, and they have more ppg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpols
A team can be fastpaced and suck and they can be slow paced and suck. It doesn't matter. How efficient a team is has nothing to do with how many shots they take, but how good they are relative to how good the team they're playing is defensively.

A fast pace team can suck. And you always find ones that do. That's not the point. If the whole league is playing at a face pace, not slowing down the pacing, then it's a different style of game. This will lead to more points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpols
Defensive rating is a completely normalized formula that computes everything relatively.. meaning it can be compared across slow and fast paced teams.

Not if all the stats go up, which is the point I'm trying to make. Since fast pacing and more possessions increases the chances are that it will lead to more points, it will also make it harder to play d since team a will get points off of more layups or FTAs, which in turn will lead to a lesser defensive rating. You can say it could be defense or good offense. It could be a mixture of both since the style is different.
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Old 03-30-2011, 07:19 PM   #32
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Default Re: Defensive rating (DRtg) How you calculate it and use it

Wins and losses boys and girls. Wins and losses. You can trying and calculate all sorts of shit from all sorts of stats. Aggregate the crap out of everything.

Open your eyes and watch the game. I know maybe you aint old enough to have seen alot of the things you comment on. But thats why you appreciate PRIMARY SOURCES like my opinion that has seen things that you haven't.

I wish I saw Bob Pettit play, I can't make a fully informed opinion on him because I never seen him play. What are the defensive ratings off the teams he played against? It doesn't matter does it?

I don't know if I should tell you this... but go download some torrents of the 90's games and the 80's too if you can. Then maybe you kids can start to form an opnion thats worth something.
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Old 03-30-2011, 07:24 PM   #33
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Default Re: Defensive rating (DRtg) How you calculate it and use it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
Thats a lot of words to say more possessions = more scoring. Nobody denies that. That was never in question. You have just successfully established that Jordan's raw scoring totals are inflated because he played in an era of fast pace. Now what?

It's the rebounds that are more inflated. This is shown by Wilt, Russell, and everybody else because there were more possessions, which could lead to more rebounds. Assists and FTA could be inflated too.

This just means the scrubs shot more, and faster. If Magic took 18 shots per game, he could still shoot that many in a lower pace era. Same thing as Jordan. Just the scrubs won't shoot the ball as much.

Last edited by Micku : 03-30-2011 at 07:27 PM.
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Old 03-30-2011, 07:27 PM   #34
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Default Re: Defensive rating (DRtg) How you calculate it and use it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Micku
The 80s and below. And a lot of fast pace teams. It's also proven by this:

http://arturogalletti.files.wordpres...ng?w=510&h=296

Usually the more possessions, the more shots, the more chance of scoring. Kind'a like how if Kobe only takes 10 shots one game and take 20 shots the other game. The 20 shots give him more chance of scoring (not counting FTAs).
.
Nah.. I think the league back then had a stronger offensive mentality and didn't focus as much on defense. Thats why so many layups and what not were given up and teams were able to run on each other all night. FG% was much higher back then too and it's because teams weren't as tenacious defensively and they didn't gameplan as hard to stop each other like they do nowadays. Schemes for defense are so much better than what they used to be.

Think about it.. if what you're saying is true and defenses in the 80s played good defense(like today) but offenses still performed much better, that would mean offenses and players in the 80s were much better than they are now. So if you put magic and bird and dantley and all of the other great offensive players of the 80s on teams in this era, they would put up the same great numbers and efficiencies despite all the superstars today currently putting up lower ones..

Seriously.. go watch an 80s basketball game and tell me they are getting after it on the defensive end of the court as hard as they did in the 90s and the 2000s. It's not even a comparison. Players and teams became way, way better defensively AFTER the 80s.
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Old 03-30-2011, 07:39 PM   #35
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Default Re: Defensive rating (DRtg) How you calculate it and use it

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpols
Nah.. I think the league back then had a stronger offensive mentality and didn't focus as much on defense. Thats why so many layups and what not were given up and teams were able to run on each other all night. FG% was much higher back then too and it's because teams weren't as tenacious defensively and they didn't gameplan as hard to stop each other like they do nowadays. Schemes for defense are so much better than what they used to be.

It was the style of pacing. You run down the court even though you weren't guarded by anybody.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpols
Think about it.. if what you're saying is true and defenses in the 80s played good defense(like today) but offenses still performed much better, that would mean offenses and players in the 80s were much better than they are now. So if you put magic and bird and dantley and all of the other great offensive players of the 80s on teams in this era, they would put up the same great numbers and efficiencies despite all the superstars today currently putting up lower ones..

They were. Do you consider the Suns the best offensive team in the 04-05? Why? Because they ran, got good shots, and scored more points than anybody. A lot of teams in the 80s did that in the 80s, but better because they took better shots and were more stacked.

Besides, look at the big names of the 80s. The 80s probably had the most talent out any decade in NBA history. But the style of game was different. They just shot better. Today games your average player is more athletic and better shooters, but not necessary the best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpols
Seriously.. go watch an 80s basketball game and tell me they are getting after it on the defensive end of the court as hard as they did in the 90s and the 2000s. It's not even a comparison. Players and teams became way, way better defensively AFTER the 80s.

I have. The 80s didn't defend the 3pt shot, they mostly sag off to protect the 2s. The 90s were actually better at that, but the game was also slower. They didn't ran down the court as much. The 00s is slower than the 90s, and the shot selection wasn't great, but they had better rotation.
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Old 03-30-2011, 07:47 PM   #36
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Default Re: Defensive rating (DRtg) How you calculate it and use it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Micku
It was the style of pacing. You run down the court even though you weren't guarded by anybody.
Wait.. wasn't the whole point of this argument that the 80s were bad defensively? Yao Ming's Foot was trying to show that using defensive rating and you are saying it isn't true by trying to dismiss the use of that stat to compare 80s defenses to the defenses of today.. but then you go onto say that you could freely run down the court in the 80s, they didn't pressure players at the 3pt line, and they overall weren't as aggressive defensively.

Doesn't that mean 80s defenses were worse defensively thus verifying what the stat was saying all along? I mean you're pretty much admitting what was being argued the whole time.
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Old 03-30-2011, 07:56 PM   #37
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Default Re: Defensive rating (DRtg) How you calculate it and use it

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpols
Wait.. wasn't the whole point of this argument that the 80s were bad defensively? Yao Ming's Foot was trying to show that using defensive rating and you are saying it isn't true by trying to dismiss the use of that stat to compare 80s defenses to the defenses of today.. but then you go onto say that you could freely run down the court in the 80s, they didn't pressure players at the 3pt line, and they overall weren't as aggressive defensively.

Doesn't that mean 80s defenses were worse defensively thus verifying what the stat was saying all along? I mean you're pretty much admitting what was being argued the whole time.

That's not what I'm saying.

1. 80s players run down the court even though they were not guarded by anybody to get the quick point.

The difference:

The 00s walk down the court when they are not guarded by anybody to set up a better quality shot.

This means the 80s players always run. Always. Even when they pressure on them. This leads to more FGA and more points. And in the 80s, you were allowed to pressure the perimeter player more than the 00s. If they don't get a good shot by running, they set up a half court play very fast. They are very quick about it.

2. The 80s players did sag. They didn't start defending better 3 until mid or late 80s because they didn't take as many 3s, and they took better shots. They would try to contest the shots from the close-mid. Late 80s, they contest the 3 better because they took more 3s. But this doesn't mean that the defense was necessary bad since they would try to contest the shot when they shoot it high percentage one.
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Old 03-30-2011, 08:02 PM   #38
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Default Re: Defensive rating (DRtg) How you calculate it and use it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Micku
That's not what I'm saying.

1. 80s players run down the court even though they were not guarded by anybody to get the quick point.

The difference:

The 00s walk down the court when they are not guarded by anybody to set up a better quality shot.

This means the 80s players always run. Always. Even when they pressure on them. This leads to more FGA and more points. And in the 80s, you were allowed to pressure the perimeter player more than the 00s. If they don't get a good shot by running, they set up a half court play very fast. They are very quick about it.

2. The 80s players did sag. They didn't start defending better 3 until mid or late 80s because they didn't take as many 3s, and they took better shots. They would try to contest the shots from the close-mid. Late 80s, they contest the 3 better because they took more 3s.
I get what you're saying now with the running down the court comment but let me say it is a lot easier to run down the court and get into an offensive set when players are sagging.. when there's no on the ball pressure and players aren't jumping passing lanes on the perimeter it's just easier for an offense to operate. That 'sagging' off the perimeter player may have been because they didn't like to shoot 3s as often, but it also indirectly made their defenses worse.

The tight defenses and better schemes of the 2000s and to an extent the 90s are just better than that of the 80s. Thats really all that was being said.
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Old 03-30-2011, 08:13 PM   #39
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Default Re: Defensive rating (DRtg) How you calculate it and use it

Quote:
They were. Do you consider the Suns the best offensive team in the 04-05? Why?

Because they had the highest offensive rating in the league while shooting the most three pointers in the league.
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Old 03-30-2011, 08:18 PM   #40
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Default Re: Defensive rating (DRtg) How you calculate it and use it

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpols
I get what you're saying now with the running down the court comment but let me say it is a lot easier to run down the court and get into an offensive set when players are sagging.. when there's no on the ball pressure and players aren't jumping passing lanes on the perimeter it's just easier for an offense to operate. That 'sagging' off the perimeter player may have been because they didn't like to shoot 3s as often, but it also indirectly made their defenses worse.

The tight defenses and better schemes of the 2000s and to an extent the 90s are just better than that of the 80s. Thats really all that was being said.

Then would you call Kobe's defense on Rondo bad in the finals? Or any defense on Rondo bad?

They would contest the shot at the 2, they tried to disable their strength, which was the mid-range close range. The mid 80s onwards defend the 3 pt shot better, because more people got used it, but they still ran down the court. Look at the defense here and look how fast they pass the ball, and run down the court:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXvDVnLFfvA#t=01m38s

Notice how fast it is. Notice how much they run even though the pressure was on them. They don't do that anymore. Look how quickly they shot the ball. You can argue that b-ball is more organized now since they take their time with their plays, but this also leads to organized defense.
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Old 03-30-2011, 08:20 PM   #41
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Default Re: Defensive rating (DRtg) How you calculate it and use it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
Because they had the highest offensive rating in the league while shooting the most three pointers in the league.

And the 80s teams and below had more. They were everything that Suns were, but faster without the 3. People even commented that the Suns were going back to the 80s style offense, and it was exciting for the league.
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Old 03-30-2011, 08:31 PM   #42
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Default Re: Defensive rating (DRtg) How you calculate it and use it

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Originally Posted by Micku
And the 80s teams and below had more. They were everything that Suns were, but faster without the 3. People even commented that the Suns were going back to the 80s style offense, and it was exciting for the league.

Every team had Steve Nash, Joe Johnson, Amare Stoudamire, Shawn Marion, Quentin Richardson and Leandro Barbosa as a top 6?



The Warriors were faster over the years and somehow they were never the top offense in the league. Why is that?
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Old 03-30-2011, 08:33 PM   #43
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Default Re: Defensive rating (DRtg) How you calculate it and use it

I just looked up Defensive Ratings from 1988 to today. What a ****ing joke this is. The 89 Pistons came in ranked 225th.
The 92 Bulls? 211th
The 97 Bulls? 205th

The highest ranked Jordan/Pippen Bulls team was the old ass 97-98 team where Pippen missed half the season -- at 38th.

The 03 Sacramento Kings? 27th!!!

The 04 New Jersey NETS -- 10th!

The 94 Knicks are 14th, but the team that BEAT them are ranked 65th!

Get this. The 03 Nuggets, who won all of 17 games is ranked 63rd. That's right. 17-65 and they are ranked SIXTY-THIRD best defense since 1988! Higher than any of the 90's champions except for the old, injured 98 Bulls that barely held it together. What a f*cking joke.

And this dude keeps shoving this stat up everyone's ass like it means something.
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Old 03-30-2011, 08:44 PM   #44
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Default Re: Defensive rating (DRtg) How you calculate it and use it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
Every team had Steve Nash, Joe Johnson, Amare Stoudamire, Shawn Marion, Quentin Richardson and Leandro Barbosa as a top 6?



Check Showtime, Celts, Blazzers, 76ers, Pistons, Jazz, and the Nuggets. They all played very fast as well, so they would get chances to score more. It was a different era. Not saying that the talent is the exactly the same, but they the style of play allows for more overall scoring. Just check the 80s stats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
The Warriors were faster over the years and somehow they were never the top offense in the league. Why is that?

The warriors actually do have the highest points for the past few years. At least top 2. But it's not like you can't suck as a fast pace team. There are a few teams that suck. Sometimes cannot convert, other teams can. But the fact remains that the higher the possessions, usually means more scoring. This includes the pace of the game. This has been proven over the years and with top teams with possessions .
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Old 03-30-2011, 08:44 PM   #45
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Default Re: Defensive rating (DRtg) How you calculate it and use it

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Originally Posted by Bogus_Sting
Wins and losses boys and girls. Wins and losses. You can trying and calculate all sorts of shit from all sorts of stats. Aggregate the crap out of everything.

Open your eyes and watch the game. I know maybe you aint old enough to have seen alot of the things you comment on. But thats why you appreciate PRIMARY SOURCES like my opinion that has seen things that you haven't.

I wish I saw Bob Pettit play, I can't make a fully informed opinion on him because I never seen him play. What are the defensive ratings off the teams he played against? It doesn't matter does it?

I don't know if I should tell you this... but go download some torrents of the 90's games and the 80's too if you can. Then maybe you kids can start to form an opnion thats worth something.

A couple questions for you:

How many games did you watch from the 80s-10s?

Do you have a photographic memory?

Last edited by Yao Ming's Foot : 03-30-2011 at 08:49 PM.
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