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Old 04-30-2014, 07:32 AM   #5056
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by LJJ
The Dothraki are essentially just the Mongols. The Mongols faced professional medieval armies a couple of times and absolutely annihilated them. They killed Russia's main army to the last man in the 1220s and in the 1240s they destroyed the Hungarian army and sacked their entire kingdom killing 20% of the population.

Both times with small, auxiliary (scouting) forces rather than with their main army.
but the in textual evidence suggest dotharki are like a cartoon 'tard version of mongols

mongols utilized artilery and siege weaponry constructed by defected engineers etc and were tactic geniuses

the dothraki exhibit none of those traits.

it's a false equivocation. GRRM did intend dothraki to resemble the mongols but he presented a very skewed and caricatured version of them
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Old 04-30-2014, 07:46 AM   #5057
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by LJJ
The Dothraki are essentially just the Mongols. The Mongols faced professional medieval armies a couple of times and absolutely annihilated them. They killed Russia's main army to the last man in the 1220s and in the 1240s they destroyed the Hungarian army and sacked their entire kingdom killing 20% of the population.

Both times with small, auxiliary (scouting) forces rather than with their main army.
Comparing Dothraki to Mongols is an insult to the military greatness of Mongols (and I am not even a particular fan of them).

Mongols employed advanced tactics, heavy cavalry, advanced command and army structure and most importantly ARMOR. There is a reason armor existed, even though most people today apparently think it is useless and you can slash through it with sword or shoot it through with an arrow anytime you want. Dothraki ride into the battle basically NAKED.

They were also capable of quick learning as they used anything and anyone (for example French trebuchets build by Persian engineers) that made them better. Dothraki on the other are a bunch of backwater racists that think everyone is inferior to them when it comes to war.

If GRRM intended to make a Dothraki into force to be reckoned with, he failed hard. Same with the Unsullied, who are actually pretty useless when anyone with any knowledge of medieval military thinks about it. Of course it is still his story, so they may still wreck shit up, but it will be very lame, when no real basis for has been made in the story so far.

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Old 04-30-2014, 08:27 AM   #5058
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by Trollsmasher
Comparing Dothraki to Mongols is an insult to the military greatness of Mongols (and I am not even a particular fan of them).

Mongols employed advanced tactics, heavy cavalry, advanced command and army structure and most importantly ARMOR. There is a reason armor existed, even though most people today apparently think it is useless and you can slash through it with sword or shoot it through with an arrow anytime you want. Dothraki ride into the battle basically NAKED.

They were also capable of quick learning as they used anything and anyone (for example French trebuchets build by Persian engineers) that made them better. Dothraki on the other are a bunch of backwater racists that think everyone is inferior to them when it comes to war.

If GRRM intended to make a Dothraki into force to be reckoned with, he failed hard. Same with the Unsullied, who are actually pretty useless when anyone with any knowledge of medieval military thinks about it. Of course it is still his story, so they may still wreck shit up, but it will be very lame, when no real basis for has been made in the story so far.
Unsullied make no sense to me. They have their balls chopped off before puberty, which will only stunt their growth and subsequently stunt their strength. They are effectively a group of highly disciplined prepubescent children with a strength and size disadvantage vs everyone they come up against. No matter how much training and discipline, I don't understand how the unsullied are so formidible. Have Dany's unsullied done anything epic in the books yet? It would be a pretty cool twist if they turn out to not be very good soldiers once they get to westeros and just get steam rolled.


I know they killed the dothraki, but it sounds like that battle was basically just waves of cavalry charging in to a disciplined spear wall. Don't see how they would fare very well against Westerosi knights. They fight mainly with spear which is good but their strength disadvantage must be enormous.
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Old 04-30-2014, 09:04 AM   #5059
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by Nick Young
Unsullied make no sense to me. They have their balls chopped off before puberty, which will only stunt their growth and subsequently stunt their strength. They are effectively a group of highly disciplined prepubescent children with a strength and size disadvantage vs everyone they come up against. No matter how much training and discipline, I don't understand how the unsullied are so formidible. Have Dany's unsullied done anything epic in the books yet? It would be a pretty cool twist if they turn out to not be very good soldiers once they get to westeros and just get steam rolled.


I know they killed the dothraki, but it sounds like that battle was basically just waves of cavalry charging in to a disciplined spear wall. Don't see how they would fare very well against Westerosi knights. They fight mainly with spear which is good but their strength disadvantage must be enormous.


She's got 3 dragons. Her army is basically window dressing.
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Old 04-30-2014, 09:15 AM   #5060
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Young
Unsullied make no sense to me. They have their balls chopped off before puberty, which will only stunt their growth and subsequently stunt their strength. They are effectively a group of highly disciplined prepubescent children with a strength and size disadvantage vs everyone they come up against. No matter how much training and discipline, I don't understand how the unsullied are so formidible. Have Dany's unsullied done anything epic in the books yet? It would be a pretty cool twist if they turn out to not be very good soldiers once they get to westeros and just get steam rolled.


I know they killed the dothraki, but it sounds like that battle was basically just waves of cavalry charging in to a disciplined spear wall. Don't see how they would fare very well against Westerosi knights. They fight mainly with spear which is good but their strength disadvantage must be enormous.
Yeah, it makes no sense. They are essentialy a hoplite force. That's 500 BC. There is 2 thousand years of military evolution between them and Westeros.

And of course, they don't even have balls. It's nice that they won't break, but pretty much useless when they simply get overpowered.

And I don't get what is this fetish that fantasy authors have with people not feeling pain. We feel it for a reason and not feeling is not a good thing, even on the battlefield. When you get spear in the gut, your job is to let somebody take your place in the formation and get your ass to medics, not stay in the place, die out of blood loss and leave a hole that can be breached, because you are tough and don't feel pain.

The Dothraki vs Unsullied battle was simply a battle between two caricatures and somebody had to win.

GRRM's worldbuilding in Essos is simply completly shitty in every department. Demographics, economics, military... The only place that somehow makes sense is Braavos.

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Old 04-30-2014, 09:22 AM   #5061
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by Trollsmasher
GRRM's worldbuilding in Essos is simply completly shitty in every department. Demographics, economics, military... The only place that somehow makes sense is Braavos.
yea GRRM really copped out with essos, dude did a terrible job at making it remotely believable, it's like far tales of the east or something. Like a travelogue of fantastical sights without any attention to depth or substance.
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Old 04-30-2014, 09:31 AM   #5062
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

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yea GRRM really copped out with essos, dude did a terrible job at making it remotely believable, it's like far tales of the east or something. Like a travelogue of fantastical sights without any attention to depth or substance.
Yeah, it's a full blown orientalism. You can blame some of it on Daenerys' ignorance as she is our POV in Essos most of the time, but it does not get better even when we see it through somebody's else eyes.

I would not have a problem with it if he at least tried to make it somehow believable, but he clearly did not.

Eunuch warriors? Warriors on stilts? Bunch of savages with no armor owning the continent? No apparent economy apart from slave trade? Giant chunks of empty spaces and no apparent coutryside around those few cities? No middle class? The most retarded names in the history of fantasy writing?

Gimme a break
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Old 04-30-2014, 09:45 AM   #5063
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by Trollsmasher
Yeah, it's a full blown orientalism. You can blame some of it on Daenerys' ignorance as she is our POV in Essos most of the time, but it does not get better even when we see it through somebody's else eyes.

I would not have a problem with it if he at least tried to make it somehow believable, but he clearly did not.

Eunuch warriors? Warriors on stilts? Bunch of savages with no armor owning the continent? No apparent economy apart from slave trade? Giant chunks of empty spaces and no apparent coutryside around those few cities? No middle class? The most retarded names in the history of fantasy writing?

Gimme a break


That's actually the most believable aspect.
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Old 04-30-2014, 10:26 AM   #5064
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

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No, no, no. Medieval war is not Total War, where Cavalry >>>> everything else.

Well formed infantry formations supported by ranged weapons have won countless medieval battles. Westerosi military is precisely that. Contrary to popular belief, medieval feudal armies were not made of peasants with pitchforks, but mostly well equipped professionals. This is matched by descriptions of Westerosi armies in the text. They are not peasants. They are well trained men armed with quality steel and ranged weapons, wearing everything from gambesons and mail to plate armor, lot of them veterans of Robert's and Balon's rebellions. Just read the description of the battle at Green Fork.

The battle at the green fork like all the rest was a few hundred knights and thousands of unarmored untrainted men with homemade weapons.

One of the biggest slaughterings in the books(Robb beating Stafford Lannister) was for just that reason. He had 20 thousand men...almost all of which were people forced to come off their farms and fight. They had to wait weeks to even attempt battle just trying to train them.

20 thousand dothraki would have wiped that "army" out in moments.

Not like they didnt discuss it on the show:

http://youtu.be/1tjEQnXTvwk?t=32s


Unity and being 100% professional fighters would make the difference.



Quote:
And Dothraki are not even a medieval force. They are a proto light cavalry with no armor, slashing arakhs as a main weapon and no sense of tactics or firm structure of command. Half of them would be dead from arrow volleys before they would even reach the enemy and the rest would cut itself to pieces on the pikes of the first pike square they would ride into. You don't even need heavy cavalry to counter those idiots and slaughter them. Not to mention that once you kill the khal, they will disintegrate.

Funny considering that this easily stopped force is so feared that an entire continent that is pretty much Asia pays them off instead of even attempting to fight.

The only cities left untake nare those they intentionally leave so they can later come sell slaves too. They would have literally taken over their entire part of the world if not for needing slavers to profit off the slaves they capture. If you read the first book and see the description of their holy city you see they have taken over cities from all over the continent and had slaves drag back the statues of gods from thousands of miles away. They took over and wiped out cities in the Shadow lands beyond the maps they even publish.

They have taken over areas roughly equal to like...Italy to Japan.

They are the Mongols.

Their weakness is the arrogance of not wearing armor but if that kept them back...perhaps someone who does would have defeated them in the last several thousand years. The only people they didnt fight were the Valyrians id assume because how does someone on foot beat people with thousands of dragons. But even then they ruled their area. Once the dragons died out they sacked everywhere. The only cities left are the ones who pay them off.

Dont remember what book it was but someone(Jorah perhaps) mentioned that nobody can stand against them except unsullied because you cant pay sellswords enough to stand their ground and common people cant fight professional soldiers on horses.

Knights could do both. But you wouldnt have enough of them. If the west fully combined forces and put 20 thousand knights out front...they would win.

But they wouldnt. As Robert said...only a fool would meet them in an open field.
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Old 04-30-2014, 11:07 AM   #5065
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
The battle at the green fork like all the rest was a few hundred knights and thousands of unarmored untrainted men with homemade weapons.

One of the biggest slaughterings in the books(Robb beating Stafford Lannister) was for just that reason. He had 20 thousand men...almost all of which were people forced to come off their farms and fight. They had to wait weeks to even attempt battle just trying to train them.

20 thousand dothraki would have wiped that "army" out in moments.

Not like they didnt discuss it on the show:

http://youtu.be/1tjEQnXTvwk?t=32s


Unity and being 100% professional fighters would make the difference.





Funny considering that this easily stopped force is so feared that an entire continent that is pretty much Asia pays them off instead of even attempting to fight.

The only cities left untake nare those they intentionally leave so they can later come sell slaves too. They would have literally taken over their entire part of the world if not for needing slavers to profit off the slaves they capture. If you read the first book and see the description of their holy city you see they have taken over cities from all over the continent and had slaves drag back the statues of gods from thousands of miles away. They took over and wiped out cities in the Shadow lands beyond the maps they even publish.

They have taken over areas roughly equal to like...Italy to Japan.

They are the Mongols.

Their weakness is the arrogance of not wearing armor but if that kept them back...perhaps someone who does would have defeated them in the last several thousand years. The only people they didnt fight were the Valyrians id assume because how does someone on foot beat people with thousands of dragons. But even then they ruled their area. Once the dragons died out they sacked everywhere. The only cities left are the ones who pay them off.

Dont remember what book it was but someone(Jorah perhaps) mentioned that nobody can stand against them except unsullied because you cant pay sellswords enough to stand their ground and common people cant fight professional soldiers on horses.

Knights could do both. But you wouldnt have enough of them. If the west fully combined forces and put 20 thousand knights out front...they would win.

But they wouldnt. As Robert said...only a fool would meet them in an open field.
No it was not. If you even bothered to read it, you would know that.
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php...troop-quality/

I'll leave this thread here for anyone who is interested in the actual Westerosi militaries and not in the "farmers with pitchforks" fairytales. It contains the descriptions of northern army assembled by Robb (all clearly trained men with quality equipment) and the battle at Green Fork which shows the quality of the Lannister army and the resilience and discipline of the northern troops which were send there for a slaughter. The description of Tywin's army is particularly interesting as it contains some "leftovers" but they are still better equipped than any Dothraki we have ever seen.

You have it backwards with Dothraki. Those cities could wipe them out easily. But they don't, because Dothraki are essential to the slave production. They simply pay them off, because it costs less than hiring somebody like Golden Company and because they are the part of the economy cicle.

And as I said before, the whole Essos is a military backwater. I am comparing Dothraki to a 15th century Westerosi forces, not Unsullied hoplites. We are not talking some early medieval forces where the conscript, as Westeros is clearly much further advanced.

But there is really no point in discussing this with you, as you clearly believe fairy tales over what we actually see. You clearly know nothing of medieval military, Mongols or anything else from the period for that matter because only such person could say Dothraki are Mongols.

Robert has only heard legends about Dothraki. If he actually ever saw one,a s they are described in the books, he would probably have a fit of laughter. Jorah was feeding his bullshit to Daenerys as always.

So for everyone else:
These are you average 14-15th century soldiers for a reference to your average Westerosi soldier as they are described in the books:


You did not need to be a knight to be well armed or to be a quality soldier. These people were professionals for most parts. There would of course be some low quality fodder, but that was a minority.

This is a Dothraki:


Yeah, he would have a horse, but that's kinda useless when you take a crossbow bolt in the head because you are too retarded to wear a helmet.

Guess who wins

Also, these are Mongols riders:



so similar

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Old 04-30-2014, 06:53 PM   #5066
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I believe what I read. And every description of the big armies of the west is a few knights and a gang of farmers. One was literally called "THe sweepings of lannisport" boys and old men. Read what the Septon on the road with *omitted for spoiler reasons* said on their way to *again* about broken men.

He was a soldier himself. Spoke of thousands of pot boys armed with kitchen knives and fire hardened sticks being run down by real warriors and breaking and becoming outlaws.

I dont care about the real world. We arent talking about that. We are talking about a fantasy world. One where armies are a few kights used to stiffen common men.

Only the greatest of conflicts brings together enough knights to be of use. Which is why the person who actually led the army that took over westeros says they couldnt win.

He wanted to kill Danys baby in advance just out of fear of him at the head of a dothraki army.

You can dismiss them. The people in question dont.
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Old 04-30-2014, 09:28 PM   #5067
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This show has gotten awfully rapey in the past few episodes. At least that part is staying true to the source material.
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Old 05-01-2014, 05:07 AM   #5068
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
I believe what I read. And every description of the big armies of the west is a few knights and a gang of farmers. One was literally called "THe sweepings of lannisport" boys and old men. Read what the Septon on the road with *omitted for spoiler reasons* said on their way to *again* about broken men.

He was a soldier himself. Spoke of thousands of pot boys armed with kitchen knives and fire hardened sticks being run down by real warriors and breaking and becoming outlaws.

I dont care about the real world. We arent talking about that. We are talking about a fantasy world. One where armies are a few kights used to stiffen common men.

Only the greatest of conflicts brings together enough knights to be of use. Which is why the person who actually led the army that took over westeros says they couldnt win.

He wanted to kill Danys baby in advance just out of fear of him at the head of a dothraki army.

You can dismiss them. The people in question dont.
No, it's not, I have posted these descriptions above. Stafford's army was an exception, because Tywin already took 45K men trained and equipped men east. And they still were not meant to fight until getting proper training and drills in, but Robb Stark won a lottery with Grey Wind finding a passage past Golden Tooth.

Septon Meribald was a camp follower. It's pretty clear from his description of himself and his friends. Boy trying to find glory. I mean he did not even have a weapon. No sensible lord would ever take a boy with no weapon into the army. He was not a soldier.

Yeah, we are talking about fantasy. Still, the author bases it on reality and common sense, therefore he should follow it. If he wanted to make Dothraki into a force to be reckoned with, he should've given more thought to their creation and description.

Why are you still talking about knights? Knights mean nothing in the military sense of view. It's a honorary title. Becoming knight does not make you a better fighter and it does not make you richer. Men from the North are not knights, because they do not believe in Seven, that does not mean they are somehow inferior to knights. We have seen bigass armies in Westeros, most of them are made of men at arms, freemen and freeriders, sellswords, retainers, landowners and such. All of those are soldiers, but not knights. There are at least 40M people living in Westeros, the upper and richer (warrior) class is pretty big.

I can dismiss them all I want. Robert's opinion is pretty much worthless, as he has never seen them. In the books he even thinks Drogo's horde is about thrice as big as it really is, so it's clear he has no information. Unlike him I have seen them in the text and as a fan of medieval warfare I simply had to laugh.

He wanted to kill Daenerys' baby because there were still Targaryen loyalists in Westeros who would jump back onto the Targaryen bandwagon if they came back - those would be real threat to the kingdom, not a bunch naked idiots on horses.

I mean, I really wonder how do you imagine an outcome of armorless riders with armorless horses charging into a 6 men deep pike wall supported by bowmen and crossbowmen?

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Old 05-01-2014, 08:46 AM   #5069
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

You say you read the books but it seems you forgot the issues at hand.

You think the two sellsword companies at qohor with armor, the cities heavy horse, and a doubled garrison also in armor didn't think to just put up pikes?

Then as ever everyone died armor or not. Surviving sellswords ran. Unsullied saved the day. And 2400 of their 3000 died too.

I suspect essos thought of arrows and Pikes.

Doesn't seem they work.

Real world just doesn't matter.

The source material says they win. The commander of the Westeros military says they win.

What you or i say is irrelevant.
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Old 05-01-2014, 09:05 AM   #5070
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And the septon was no camp follower. Where would you even get that?


*spoilers though not really plot related...just a brief paragraph the show likely wont even go into*




He said he went with all his brothers one of them saying he could squire for him(even though his brother was himself...just a pot boy with a stolen kitchen knife). It was literally a bunch of kids going to war. One wask illed by an axe or a mace to the head. Couple others died of sickness. I think one had an arm cut off. He said after they were dead he was STILL marching having been claimed by some new lord he didn't even know.

It was the war of the ninepenny kings and he was a child soldier in it. Like thousands of others.

Hell Ned and Robert were what....17 when they took the throne?

Robb stark was 15 beating lannisters.

Child soldiers were not the least bit uncommon. They considered you an adult at 16. Jaimes squire Peck was 14 fighting on the blackwater and killed 2 knights and captured 2 more.

Child soldiers are the norm in westeros. Your claim lords wouldn't take boys with no weapons just isn't based in what we know. How many times are the words "Fire hardened spear" in there?

A LOT of people are fighting with no real weapons. Just....tree branches and kitchen knives. Jaime mentioned "soldiers" with garden tools.

Just being real...such people do not stand firm vs 40,000 charging professional killers.


And you are 100% right it doesn't matter if youre actually a knight or not. The Hound isn't a knight. Neither is Brienne. But 20 thousand of them wont backdown. By knight I meant people with real training, armor, and war horses. Not....some guy given a sword.

A large enough force of knights or something similar could hold its own or beat the Dothraki I assume. The question is where would you get it quickly and have it all on one page. As Robert explained....there are as many armies as men with gold. And they all want something different.

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