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Old 09-26-2011, 02:42 PM   #1156
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by Thorpesaurous
There's only one other way I can think of:


But I'm still partial to the Melisandre theory. She's got a thing for Jon Snow.

I believe Jon is Rheagar and Lyanna's son. In the House of The Undying One's chapter in book 2 where Danaeys looks into the past and sees Rhaegar deeming Aegon the prince who was promised I think he was mistaken and his other son, Jon, is the Prince Who Was Promised. I also believe Azor Ahai and the Prince Who Was Promised are the same person. It would explain Melisandres strong visions of Jon when she looks into the flames.

Here is a quote from wiki.

"According to prophesy originating from Asshai over five thousand years ago, Azor Ahai is to be reborn again as The Prince that was Promised to challenge the Others. The prophesy states that "when the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

Who better than Jon Snow to stand against The Others? He has already done it before. Also it says to be born again amidst smoke and salt. In the chapter where Jon dies it specifically says Jon's wounds begin to smoke. As far as the Salt and Waking Dragons go I think we need to see if any of those come into play in a future chapter.

Another reason I think Jon is Azor Ahai is when Melisandre "stares into her flame looking for Azor Ahai all she saw was Snow." This was when the snow storm had Stannis' army halted but I dont think that's what the flame intended.

Anyways. I think Jon is reborn as Azor Ahai to fight against the Others.

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Old 09-26-2011, 03:31 PM   #1157
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

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Or at least it's new to me, Jon was the second shooter on the grassy knoll.

problem with this is that everything that we have learned about rhaegar (aside from robert's impression of him) is that he is a very noble and honorable guy. i don't think he would murder a child. i still think j= R + L
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Old 09-26-2011, 04:57 PM   #1158
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

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I still do too, but I thought it would be a cool twist. That would give Jon the best (I think) claim to the throne.

Did you catch my other question to you? It's on the previous page.

It was in reference to your even if they lose a head, that might not be enough to keep someone dead. Do you think another person might have been "young griff'd" by Varys? It's a stretch but another neat little thing that GRRM left hints at, whether they are to throw us off or not.

Possible spoilers in white:
Sansa starts doing all girl porn!!!

There's a few "even if they lose a head" guys. Bran, Rickon, Davos all come to mind as specifically having heads mounted on spikes that weren't actually theirs.

Your theory would be nuts, but it would require some serious explaining for the last what ... two years it's been.


I agree with the Rheagar Lyanna = Jon thing. I'm just worried that it was set up as such a big plot twist, and now that it's pretty much become expected, that the author may change it just to throw people off of it. And if that were the case, there may be some hints that wind up laid by the wayside. I actually wonder how that type of stuff is kept track of. There's almost 5000 pages of fantasy fiction in here.

Anyway, I was really intrigued by Barriston Selmy's proclamation about Ashara turning to Stark. Barriston and Ned also seemed to have a close relationship, that it never came up prior, or didn't seem to be a thorn in their relationship seems odd ... although Barriston seems to have taken his secret crush pretty seriously on the secret side of things.

At this point wouldn't it almost be as big a shocker if it did in fact turn out that Jon is in fact exactly who we were told he was, the bastard of Ned Stark?
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Old 09-26-2011, 05:06 PM   #1159
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by Anti Hero
I still do too, but I thought it would be a cool twist. That would give Jon the best (I think) claim to the throne.

Did you catch my other question to you? It's on the previous page.

It was in reference to your even if they lose a head, that might not be enough to keep someone dead. Do you think another person might have been "young griff'd" by Varys? It's a stretch but another neat little thing that GRRM left hints at, whether they are to throw us off or not.


as cool as it would be to have Ned still around, i think he's really dead. the difference between him and bran, rickon, the hound, and davos was that their deaths were never publicly witnessed. all of king's landing saw ned get executed. IF ned IS still alive, he wouldn't be the ned we all know. he would be a zombie ned like cat turned out to be.

i read a grrm interview where he said that a song of fire and ice is really the story of the children (dany, jon, bran, tyrion, etc). in order to move that story along, the previous generation (ned, robert, tywin) had to die.
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Old 09-27-2011, 07:10 AM   #1160
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

I just finished last night. Excellent ending in the epilogue. The epilogues are consistently good. Always big set ups. Can't wait for the next book, but honestly reading this has pretty much occupied all my excess time for about 5 months, so I'm ready for the break. I'll have to find something light to read to fill the gap. Or maybe dive into a video game. Shame Uncharted still has another month plus.
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Old 09-27-2011, 06:53 PM   #1161
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A thought about Jon being Robert and Lyanna's bastard:

I mentioned before that it seemed odd that Robert would be Jon's father because he had shown at least passing interest in his bastard offspring before, and he had shown absolutely no interest in Jon at all, to the point that he didn't even speak to him at King's Landing as far as we know.
Then it struck me that he talks to Ned about Jon, or really about Jon's mother and what a looker she must have been in order to break the noble Ned Stark. So if Jon is in fact Robert's son, Robert didn't appear to know either.

How long was Lyanna "captured" by Rheagar that she would be able to come to term and give birth to a kid without being known to be pregnant prior? It would have to be no less than 6 months.

I have a feeling it will be Jon Connington, who's relationship with Rheagar seems awfully close, who will eventually be the one to spill the beans about Jon's parentage. Wheather it's Rheagar and Lyanna, or Robert, it seems he'd know either way. Unless it's not Lyanna at all.
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Old 09-27-2011, 07:22 PM   #1162
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by Anti Hero
Another thing to look for would be if they ever number how many known bastards Robert has. In Cersei's chapter she talks about Maggy the frog and she asks her if her and her husband will have children. She says you will have three and he will have sixteen. If they are ever to mention a number or someone were to take a look at all the books themselves and do the work and it comes up one short, that would lend itself possibly that RB+L=J


That's a good one.

I don't think they got anywhere near sixteen.
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Old 09-27-2011, 07:41 PM   #1163
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by Thorpesaurous
A thought about Jon being Robert and Lyanna's bastard:

I mentioned before that it seemed odd that Robert would be Jon's father because he had shown at least passing interest in his bastard offspring before, and he had shown absolutely no interest in Jon at all, to the point that he didn't even speak to him at King's Landing as far as we know.
Then it struck me that he talks to Ned about Jon, or really about Jon's mother and what a looker she must have been in order to break the noble Ned Stark. So if Jon is in fact Robert's son, Robert didn't appear to know either.

How long was Lyanna "captured" by Rheagar that she would be able to come to term and give birth to a kid without being known to be pregnant prior? It would have to be no less than 6 months.

I have a feeling it will be Jon Connington, who's relationship with Rheagar seems awfully close, who will eventually be the one to spill the beans about Jon's parentage. Wheather it's Rheagar and Lyanna, or Robert, it seems he'd know either way. Unless it's not Lyanna at all.


don't forget howland reed. if i remember correctly, he is the only surviving person who was there when they found Lyanna. he could very well know the truth as well and he has not been introduced yet.
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Old 09-27-2011, 08:03 PM   #1164
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by rezznor
don't forget howland reed. if i remember correctly, he is the only surviving person who was there when they found Lyanna. he could very well know the truth as well and he has not been introduced yet.

Yeah I think Howland's going to be the one to let Jon know. I could see something like this happening:

Bran comes south towards the wall to meet with Jon (who is revived?) with the Reed children. Now at this point either Howland comes North or the Reeds, Jon and Bran go south to meet with Howland. I could see Howland going North to join the battle against the others. On the other hand Howland may want his children back or maybe Rickon is with Howland and they have to go get him. I thought I remember reading Rickon and Osha went to that one island no one goes too though? Skagros or something. Eitherway I see Howland and Jon's paths meeting through Bran and the Reeds where Howland reveals the secret.
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Old 09-27-2011, 09:17 PM   #1165
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

The her strike against Robert as the father would be what would his motive be for hiding the fact that he was Robert's from Robert. He already knew about the relatively good treatment Robert showed toward his other Bastards.

On the other hand, if the child is the son of Lyanna and Rheagar, hiding the truth makes perfect sense, because Ned would want to protect his nephew, and knowing it was Rheagar's Robert would very likely want to kill it, particualarly after Lyanna's death.

The accurate story of Lyanna's death feels like it's going to be a lynchpin.

But I also think some clarification of Ned's relationship with Ashara needs to be settled, because too much of what has been hinted at has been confirmed by Barriston. She did have a relationship with him, and she did throw herself from a window from grief. But if Jon isn't their bastard offspring, then what was their relationship?
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Old 09-27-2011, 09:57 PM   #1166
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by Anti Hero
Another reason to hide his birth is paralleled in book 4. Tywin wanted to know that Margery was a maiden before he allowed the marriage to Joff. I don't think he would have wed his daughter to Robert the usurper if he knew Robert had a bastard that could lay claim to the throne. If Tywin had found out Robert had a bastard he might have instead gave his support back to the Mad King. Ned hid the truth to keep the peace.


I thought a parallell to Tyrion's story might be in place. Lyanna actually dies in childbirth, and Ned hides the son from Robert the father to keep Robert from resenting the kid for killing his wife.

Or perhaps he's just hiding it to protect the memory of his sister. Perhaps he's more comfortable with the notion of his sister as being kidnapped to start this horrible war rather than having her known as a woman who spurned her betrothed husband Robert to engage in pre-marital affairs with Rheagar. His sister was never married and shouldn't have any kids by anyone.

I don't think the issues of Robert's prior infedility would be an issue the way it would be for a woman in the case of Robert and Tywin.
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Old 09-27-2011, 10:04 PM   #1167
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by Thorpesaurous
The her strike against Robert as the father would be what would his motive be for hiding the fact that he was Robert's from Robert. He already knew about the relatively good treatment Robert showed toward his other Bastards.

On the other hand, if the child is the son of Lyanna and Rheagar, hiding the truth makes perfect sense, because Ned would want to protect his nephew, and knowing it was Rheagar's Robert would very likely want to kill it, particualarly after Lyanna's death.

The accurate story of Lyanna's death feels like it's going to be a lynchpin.

But I also think some clarification of Ned's relationship with Ashara needs to be settled, because too much of what has been hinted at has been confirmed by Barriston. She did have a relationship with him, and she did throw herself from a window from grief. But if Jon isn't their bastard offspring, then what was their relationship?


i seem to recall one of the versions of lyanna's death was that she died due to complications from childbirth. i think i remember a bloody bed being mentioned somewhere, and that's when lyanna made ned to "promise her". a promise to raise jon and keep him safe from robert and anyone else that would wish him harm? that seems very plausible to me.
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Old 09-28-2011, 03:17 PM   #1168
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

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I'm right there with you. I still have probably 800+ pages to go with ADWD, as much as I don't want to have to wait for the next book a break is much needed and appreciated. Lets just all hope that the next book isn't too long of a wait.

Pretty good interview (audio) with GRRM


It's incredible how dorky these guys sound.
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Old 09-28-2011, 04:05 PM   #1169
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

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It's incredible how dorky these guys sound.



I'm sure there's people who think It's dorky even reading this series.
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Old 09-28-2011, 04:41 PM   #1170
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I'm sure there's people who think It's dorky even reading this series.


They're right, and that opinion would be reinforced if they listened to that. It's almost comically stereotypical.
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