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Old 05-16-2011, 10:15 AM   #31
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Default Re: Michael Jordan Game Winning Shots (article)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colby Brian
jordan has attempted 58 GW shots, kobe 118, wtf?
they have played the same amount of games almaost and kobes has 2X more, somethings weird about that

Nothing weird about that. Chicago obv didnt play as much close games as LAL did. Thats it.
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Old 05-16-2011, 10:30 AM   #32
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Default Re: Michael Jordan Game Winning Shots (article)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bingo123
Nothing weird about that. Chicago obv didnt play as much close games as LAL did. Thats it.

Precisely, as someone said earlier last year when Kobe went off on a gamewinner spree, while impressive, the question is why do the Lakers need a bailout shot against the Timberwolves or the Bucks?
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Old 05-16-2011, 10:50 AM   #33
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Default Re: Michael Jordan Game Winning Shots (article)

Also, it's not just about game winners, that's just one part of being clutch, it's how he would just step it up in big games. Coincidentally, that also leads to less last shot opportunities. That's what really makes Jordan the clutches ever (along with Bird)
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Old 05-16-2011, 11:05 AM   #34
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Default Re: Michael Jordan Game Winning Shots (article)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jstern
Also, it's not just about game winners, that's just one part of being clutch, it's how he would just step it up in big games.


Bingo. Like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWsgkauZb-U


THAT's clutch.
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Old 05-16-2011, 11:16 AM   #35
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Default Re: Michael Jordan Game Winning Shots (article)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nnn123
Surprisingly unbiased list....

Only "mistake" was that he counted 2 game winners in a SINGLE game, which is lame....you can't do that (bulls vs cavs game 5, 1989)

So taking that one out...Jordan is 50% in playoff game winners....BALLER!!!

Its not a mistake, game winners are shots made within last 24 seconds, that's his criteria.....Jordan put the bulls ahead with I believe 6 seconds left, Ehlo then gets a quick easy layup to put Cavs ahead...Jordan then hits the game winner
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Old 05-16-2011, 11:18 AM   #36
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Default Re: Michael Jordan Game Winning Shots (article)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colby Brian
jordan has attempted 58 GW shots, kobe 118, wtf?
they have played the same amount of games almaost and kobes has 2X more, somethings weird about that

its not weird, the opportunity didn't present itself as often as it has with Kobe, and after seeing the shit Kobe throws up instead of passing, may have something to do with it as well
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Old 05-16-2011, 11:51 AM   #37
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Default Re: Michael Jordan Game Winning Shots (article)

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Old 05-16-2011, 11:58 AM   #38
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Default Re: Michael Jordan Game Winning Shots (article)

The problem with Jordan's "33/58" figure is that

a) Jordan hasn't hit 33 game-winning shots (I mean real game-winners, not OT baskets or "potential" game winners). The only site that has him at 33 has included some shots twice.

b) This number includes playoffs, so, if Jordan has taken 15 GW's there, this should mean that he has only tried 43 game-winners in the regular season.

c) There still hasn't surfaced any link that offers a detailed list of Jordan's GW attempts, therefore the whole "58" number is really becoming more of an urban legend than the product of some research.

d) In case people forgot, Jordan's Bulls had lots of close games in the 80's, not to mention the Wizards. Also, Kobe was hardly taking a lot of game winners back in '97 or '98 (yes, there's the whole Utah thing, but apart from that?) and the Lakers did have their own dominant periods as well. This makes the whole 115 vs 58 thing suspect.

In few words, I think Kobe's 36/115 and Jordan's 33/58 figures were taken by quoting different sources and by considering different criteria. I don't doubt Jordan has converted a better percentage of game winners, by, as far as I can tell, there hasn't been any page that justifies all these numbers combined. Oh, and Kobe hasn't hit 36 real game winners, either. It's more like 29 or 30.
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Old 05-16-2011, 12:09 PM   #39
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Default Re: Michael Jordan Game Winning Shots (article)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psileas
The problem with Jordan's "33/58" figure is that

a) Jordan hasn't hit 33 game-winning shots (I mean real game-winners, not OT baskets or "potential" game winners). The only site that has him at 33 has included some shots twice.

b) This number includes playoffs, so, if Jordan has taken 15 GW's there, this should mean that he has only tried 43 game-winners in the regular season.

c) There still hasn't surfaced any link that offers a detailed list of Jordan's GW attempts, therefore the whole "58" number is really becoming more of an urban legend than the product of some research.

d) In case people forgot, Jordan's Bulls had lots of close games in the 80's, not to mention the Wizards. Also, Kobe was hardly taking a lot of game winners back in '97 or '98 (yes, there's the whole Utah thing, but apart from that?) and the Lakers did have their own dominant periods as well. This makes the whole 115 vs 58 thing suspect.

In few words, I think Kobe's 36/115 and Jordan's 33/58 figures were taken by quoting different sources and by considering different criteria. I don't doubt Jordan has converted a better percentage of game winners, by, as far as I can tell, there hasn't been any page that justifies all these numbers combined. Oh, and Kobe hasn't hit 36 real game winners, either. It's more like 29 or 30.

1. The stat is meant to count some things twice in the same game. For the last time:

The stat is about making a shot to win or tie a game in the last possession. Thats all. A lot of Kobe's and other players shots did not technically win the game. Kobe would have only 4 true game winners for his entire career in the playoffs.

2. The only documented things we know:

Kobe is 6/23 in the playoffs on game winners. Jordan is 9/16.

According to ESPN, Kobe makes around 33% of his game winners overall and has around 38 makes now.

We don't know about Jordan's regular season numbers. Nobody has verified the total in that one article to be correct. We do know that jordan is 9/16 in the playoffs. thats all though.

My best guess would be that Jordan has taken around 75 or so of these shots in his career, but until we have the data, its simply a guess.

Its great to finally see the playoff data though.
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Old 05-16-2011, 12:50 PM   #40
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Default Re: Michael Jordan Game Winning Shots (article)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calabis
its not weird, the opportunity didn't present itself as often as it has with Kobe, and after seeing the shit Kobe throws up instead of passing, may have something to do with it as well

Exactly. Seen it a lot that Kobe goes into brick mode late in a game and keeps the game close and then hits a game winner, but more often than not bricks it.

But when he hits it the stans go like

Last edited by BEAST Griffin : 05-16-2011 at 12:56 PM. Reason: quoted wrong post
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Old 05-16-2011, 12:53 PM   #41
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Default Re: Michael Jordan Game Winning Shots (article)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BEAST Griffin
Exactly. Seen it a lot that Kobe goes into brick mode late in a game and keeps the game close and then hits a game winner, but more often than not bricks it.

But when he hits it the stans go like

Yep.

Its so nice to finally have all this information. No longer do we have to sit here and try to remind them of all the terrible plays and misses.

Now we can just respond with the facts.

Kobe is nothing more than a slightly above average player in terms of making game winning shots.

He's right at the league average on game winners throughout his entire regular season and playoff career.

Just like against the Mavs in game 1. Huge huge huge shot that Kobe bricked as usual in the playoffs.
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Old 05-16-2011, 01:06 PM   #42
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Default Re: Michael Jordan Game Winning Shots (article)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
1. The stat is meant to count some things twice in the same game. For the last time:

The stat is about making a shot to win or tie a game in the last possession. Thats all. A lot of Kobe's and other players shots did not technically win the game. Kobe would have only 4 true game winners for his entire career in the playoffs.

That's not what I meant though. The only website I've seen listing (and not just mentioning) exactly 33 game-winners for Jordan is:

http://www.23jordan.com/shots1.htm

But, as you'll see, in 1989, he includes the exact same shots twice -read the descriptions. He also includes twice a single shot he made in the 1991 season. Never does he make any mention about other types of shots.

As for his playoff numbers, it intrigues me to do some search on my own, whenever I get the time.
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Old 05-16-2011, 01:11 PM   #43
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Default Re: Michael Jordan Game Winning Shots (article)

And yes, Kobe actually has 4 playoff game winners and Jordan 6. These "OT baskets" and "potential" or "eventual" game winners are more for padding than for describing the truth.
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Old 05-16-2011, 01:46 PM   #44
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Default Re: Michael Jordan Game Winning Shots (article)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psileas
And yes, Kobe actually has 4 playoff game winners and Jordan 6. These "OT baskets" and "potential" or "eventual" game winners are more for padding than for describing the truth.

Here is what I found as of last season:

MICHAEL JORDAN
Career Total = 28
Buzzer Beaters = 9
Game Winning Field Goals = 22
Game Winning 3-Pointers = 2
Game Winning Free Throws = 6

Nov. 11, 1984: Bulls 118 - Pacers 116 (jumper with 4 secs)
Dec. 7, 1984: Bulls 95 - Knicks 93 (jumper w/ 5 secs)
Mar. 26, 1985: Bulls 120 - Pacers 119 (game-winning FT's with 5 secs)
Apr. 24, 1985: Bulls 109 - Bucks 107 (PO, jumper with 22 secs)
Oct. 25, 1985: Bulls 116 - Cavaliers 115 (game-winning FT, makes 1-2 FT)
Nov. 11, 1986: Bulls 112 - Hawks 110 (layup with 9 secs)
Nov. 21, 1986: Bulls 101 - Knicks 99 (jumper with 1 sec)
Feb. 12, 1988: Bulls 95 - Bucks 93 (game-winning FT's with 2 secs)
Apr. 3, 1988: Bulls 112 - Pistons 110 (game-winning Ft's with 4 secs)
Apr. 15, 1988: Bulls 100 - Nets 99 (jumper with 20 secs)
Feb. 16, 1989: Bulls 117 - Bucks 116 (jumper with 1 sec)
May 7, 1989: Bulls 101 - Cavaliers 100 (PO, buzzer-beater jumper over Craig Ehlo)
May 19, 1989: Bulls 113 - Knicks 111 (PO, game-winning FT's with 4 secs)
May 27, 1989: Bulls 99 - Pistons 97 (PO, jumper with 3 secs)
Nov. 13, 1990: Bulls 84 - Jazz 82 (buzzer-beater over Thurl Bailey)
Jan. 22, 1992: Bulls 115 - Hornets 112 (layup and-1)
Nov. 11, 1992: Bulls 98 - Pistons 96 (buzzer-beater 3-pointer)
May 17, 1993: Bulls 103 - Cavaliers 101 (buzzer-beater jumper over Gerald Wilkins)
Mar. 25, 1995: Bulls 99 - Hawks 98 (buzzer-beater over Steve Smith)
Feb. 11, 1997: Bulls 103 - Hornets 100 (buzzer-beater 3-pointer)
Mar. 18, 1997: Bulls 89 - Sonics 87 (OT, game-winning FT's)
Jun. 1, 1997: Bulls 84 - Jazz 82 (PO, buzzer-beater jumper)
Feb. 13, 1998: Bulls 112 - Hawks 110 (buzzer beater jumper over Chucky Brown)
Mar. 22, 1998: Bulls 102 - Raptors 100 (fade-away with 5 secs)
Jun. 14, 1998: Bulls 87 - Jazz 86 (PO, jumper with 5.2 secs)
Dec. 22, 2001: Wizards 87 - Knicks 86 (jumper over Latrell Sprewell w/ 3.2 secs)
Jan. 21, 2002: Wizards 93 - Cavaliers 92 (buzzer-beater jumper)
Feb. 15, 2002: Wizards 97 - Suns 96 (jumper over Shawn Marion with 0.2 secs)


Percentage of GW that are Field Goals: 79 %
Percentage of GW that are Free Throws: 21 %
Percentage of GW that are 3-Pointers = 7 %
Percentage of GW that are Buzzer Beaters: 32 %

Of the 28 Game Winners: (25 with Bulls / 3 with Wizards)
Of the 9 Buzzer Beaters: (8 with Bulls / 1 with Wizards)


KOBE BRYANT
Current Total = 27
Buzzer Beaters = 8
Game Winning Field Goals = 24
Game Winning 3-Pointers = 4
Game Winning Free Throws = 3

Dec. 27, 1999: Lakers 108 - Mavericks 106 (game-winning FTs w/ 8.6 secs)
May 09, 1999: Lakers 101 - Rockets 100 (PO, game-winning FTs w/ 5.3 secs)
May 10, 2000: Lakers 97 - Phoenix 96 (PO, jumper over Jason Kidd w/ 2.6 secs)
Feb. 07, 2001: Lakers 85 - Phoenix 83 (jumper over Shawn Marion w/ 2.7 sec)
Feb. 13, 2001: Lakers 113 - Nets 110 (OT layup/and-1 w/ 4.8 secs)
Jan. 02, 2002: Lakers 87 - Nuggets 86 (off-reb and jumper w/ 55 secs)
Feb. 22, 2002: Lakers 96 - Hornets 94 (buzzer-beater, jumper over George Lynch)
May 12, 2002: Lakers 87 - Spurs 85 (PO, off-reb and put-back w/ 5.1 secs)
Dec. 06, 2002: Lakers 105 - Mavericks 103 (turn-around jumper w/ 8 secs)
April 04, 2003: Lakers 102 - Grizzlies 101 (buzzer beater, jumper over Shane Battier)
April 06, 2003: Lakers 115 - Suns 113 (OT, game-tying jumper for OT, jumper over Shawn Marion w/ 28.6 sec)
Dec. 19, 2003: Lakers 101 - Nuggets 99 (buzzer-beater, fade-away over Jon Barry)
Mar. 21, 2004: Lakers 104 - Bucks 103 (OT jumper over Keith Van Horn w/ 25.1 sec)
April 14, 2004: Lakers 105 - Blazers 104 (OT, game-tying 3-pointer for OT, fall-away 3-pointer buzzer-beater)
Mar. 12, 2005: Lakers 117 - Bobcats 116 (jumper over Keith Bogans w/ 0.9 secs)
Nov. 02, 2005: Lakers 99 - Nuggets 97 (OT jumper over Ed Najera w/ 0.6 secs)
Dec. 04, 2005: Lakers 99 - Bobcats 98 (game-winning FTs w/ 7 secs)
Jan. 12, 2006: Lakers 99 - Cavaliers 98 (jumper over LeBron James w/ 8.6 secs)
April 30, 2006: Lakers 99 - Suns 98 (PO, OT, game-tying tear-drop for OT, buzzer-beater jumper over Boris Diaw)
Jan. 14, 2008: Lakers 123 - Sonics 121 (OT jumper over Jeff Green w/ 4.3 secs)
Jan. 09, 2009: Lakers 121 - Pacers 119 (jumper over Jarrett Jack w/ 3 secs)
Dec. 04, 2009: Lakers 108 - Heat 107 (buzzer-beater, 3-pointer over Dwyane Wade)
Dec. 16, 2009: Lakers 107 - Bucks 106 (OT buzzer-beater, jumper over Charlie Bell)
Jan. 01, 2010: Lakers 109 - Kings 108 (buzzer-beater, 3-pointer)
Jan. 31, 2010: Lakers 90 - Celtics 89 (jumper over Ray Allen w/ 7.3 secs)
Feb. 23, 2010: Lakers 99 - Grizzlies 98 (3-pointer over Rudy Gay w/ 4.3 secs)
Mar. 09, 2010: Lakers 109 - Raptors 107 (fade-away jumper over Antoine Wright w/ 1.9 secs)

Percentage of GW that are Field Goals: 89 %
Percentage of GW that are Free Throws: 11 %
Percentage of GW that are 3-Pointers: 15 %
Percentage of GW that are Buzzer Beaters: 30 %

I believe this list has been disputed and that someone may have listed 4-5 more Jordan Game winners from early on......also not sure what criteria was used on these lists, reference 24 second rule(ie Kobe with 55 seconds...bolded)

Last edited by Calabis : 05-16-2011 at 01:51 PM.
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Old 05-16-2011, 02:54 PM   #45
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Default Re: Michael Jordan Game Winning Shots (article)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BEAST Griffin
Kobe is a ball hog in those situations, that's why. He'll chuck over two defenders rather than pass to an open teammate or make a smart play.

Lebron has about 75 in 8 years... In 14 he will likely have the same number of attempts. Is he always a ball hog in those situations or is your criticisms only reserved for Kobe?
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