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Old 05-19-2013, 11:15 PM   #1486
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by PistonsFan#21
I wouldnt say overrated. Just not tested yet and no evidence of what he can do agaisnt a real opponent.

This. And fighting guys like Paulie doesn't help.
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Old 05-19-2013, 11:17 PM   #1487
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
Cotto has more left than Shane, imo. He really did not look bad against Floyd and I could even see him possibly upsetting one of the young rising stars, especially if they're coming up in weight.

It feels like Shane is in it for the paycheck at this point.. And that's pretty sad given how great he was.
Not sure about a paycheck. Pretty sure he didn't get a lot in Cancun last night.

He's also ten years younger than Cotto, so Cotto should have more left in the tank.
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:21 AM   #1488
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by L.Kizzle
Not sure about a paycheck. Pretty sure he didn't get a lot in Cancun last night.

He's also ten years younger than Cotto, so Cotto should have more left in the tank.
Age doesn't always tell the story when it comes to fighters. Take enough beatings and it won't matter if you're 27 or 37.

Fernando Vargas was washed up at 29 after getting thrown to the wolves early in his career.

Good thing about Cotto was that he was brought along slowly early in his career. He was heavily criticized at the time for being an HBO creation (and there was some validity in that), but he is reaping the benefits now.

Age aside, Shane has just taken a few too many beatings.
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Old 05-20-2013, 03:18 AM   #1489
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
Age doesn't always tell the story when it comes to fighters. Take enough beatings and it won't matter if you're 27 or 37.

Fernando Vargas was washed up at 29 after getting thrown to the wolves early in his career.

Good thing about Cotto was that he was brought along slowly early in his career. He was heavily criticized at the time for being an HBO creation (and there was some validity in that), but he is reaping the benefits now.

Age aside, Shane has just taken a few too many beatings.
To be fair, miggy has taken two of the biggest beatings in recent memory.
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Old 05-20-2013, 03:45 AM   #1490
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

sigh..valero could have joined this current junior welter mix had he not gone psycho
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:22 PM   #1491
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by magic chiongson
sigh..valero could have joined this current junior welter mix had he not gone psycho

Agreed. He'd be in line for a Pacquiao fight instead of Rios. Said his dream was to fight Manny
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Old 05-20-2013, 10:04 PM   #1492
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

I started an interest with boxing about 4 years or so ago when Floyd Mayweather came back out of retirement.

Before than, other than the regular Tyson and Ali matches on ESPN Classic, I was never into it. Two years ago I started to get deep into it and it has climbe to my 2nd favorite sport behind basketball.


Rank these guy, the best All-Time out of these guys who've been some of the most popular the last 5 years or so.

-Floyd Mayweather
-Manny Pacquiao
-Shane Mosley
-Miguel Cotto
-Antonio Margarito
-Juan Manuel Marquez
-Zab Judah
-Erik Morales
-Bernard Hopkins
-Klitschko brothers
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:09 PM   #1493
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

That's a tough list to rank at the top..Floyd's once in a generation skillset vs vlad's dominance vs Hopkins insane longevity vs manny's spectacular run. Those are my top 4 probably in that order...but maybe I'm underrating Hopkins.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:11 PM   #1494
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

And Marquez next.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:15 PM   #1495
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by L.Kizzle
I started an interest with boxing about 4 years or so ago when Floyd Mayweather came back out of retirement.

Before than, other than the regular Tyson and Ali matches on ESPN Classic, I was never into it. Two years ago I started to get deep into it and it has climbe to my 2nd favorite sport behind basketball.


Rank these guy, the best All-Time out of these guys who've been some of the most popular the last 5 years or so.

-Floyd Mayweather
-Manny Pacquiao
-Shane Mosley
-Miguel Cotto
-Antonio Margarito
-Juan Manuel Marquez
-Zab Judah
-Erik Morales
-Bernard Hopkins
-Klitschko brothers

Based on career. I gotta include Barrera on the list.

1. Pacquiao
2. Mayweather
3. Hopkins
4. Marquez
5. Morales
6. Barrera
7. Wladimir
8. Mosley
9. Vitaly
10. Cotto
11. Judah
12. Margarito

Last edited by Beatlezz : 05-20-2013 at 11:24 PM.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:15 PM   #1496
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by L.Kizzle
I started an interest with boxing about 4 years or so ago when Floyd Mayweather came back out of retirement.

Before than, other than the regular Tyson and Ali matches on ESPN Classic, I was never into it. Two years ago I started to get deep into it and it has climbe to my 2nd favorite sport behind basketball.


Rank these guy, the best All-Time out of these guys who've been some of the most popular the last 5 years or so.

-Floyd Mayweather
-Manny Pacquiao
-Shane Mosley
-Miguel Cotto
-Antonio Margarito
-Juan Manuel Marquez
-Zab Judah
-Erik Morales
-Bernard Hopkins
-Klitschko brothers

1. Mayweather
2. Pacquiao
3. Hopkins
4. Mosley
5. Marquez
6. Morales
7. Cotto
8. Zab
9. Klits
10. Margarito

Margarito is a flat-out cheater. He deserves no respect. His career was a sham, as far as I'm concerned.

Klits have spent their careers in an utter wasteland and I've never been overly impressed by either one.

Zab had elite talent, but never quite realized what he could have been.

Cotto is a warrior, but not quite in the "great fighter" category, imo. Very good, not great.

The rest are great fighters in a historical sense.

Last edited by RedBlackAttack : 05-20-2013 at 11:17 PM.
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Old 05-21-2013, 12:28 AM   #1497
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

It depends, what are you asking to rank them on, greatness as a boxer or greatness of a career? I know that sounds like an odd choice but I think it's an important distinction to make. IMO Hopkins is clearly below Floyd and manny on the greatness as a fighter list simply because he never had the physical skills either of them possesses. Not even when he was absolutely dominating at middleweight. He never had blazing speed or true knockout power. But in terms of greatness of a career? He doesn't take a backseat to anyone on this list. His peak(the aforementioned dominating run at middleweight) goes up against anyone's and his longevity is not even close to being matched(though the more I think about it, Floyd might take a shot at it if he ends up losing a close decision at some point and no longer has to worry about protecting his 0.

With that in mind here is my list based on greatness at a fighter
1.floyd
2. Manny
3. Mosley
4. Hopkins
5. Jmm
6. Morales
7. Vitaly(iv never understood why the klitschko with the bad chin gets ranked higher, I know the brothers chose to allow him to keep the main belts but lets be honest if they fought big brother would beat lil brother. He's never lost other than due to injury)
8. Morales
9. Cotto(I think you are underselling him a hair rba. He was great IMO. Not high enough to be on an all time list but still a great fighter)


I'll also add if you missed Rjj you seriously need to go watch his fights from his prime. He would be first on this list from the pure greatness category if included. His best takes a backseat to absolutely no one ever.
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Old 05-21-2013, 12:30 AM   #1498
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

I'd also add that you didn't include Andre ward who will be very high on this list at some point. He has the ability to be an atg
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Old 05-21-2013, 01:52 AM   #1499
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by raiderfan19
It depends, what are you asking to rank them on, greatness as a boxer or greatness of a career? I know that sounds like an odd choice but I think it's an important distinction to make. IMO Hopkins is clearly below Floyd and manny on the greatness as a fighter list simply because he never had the physical skills either of them possesses. Not even when he was absolutely dominating at middleweight. He never had blazing speed or true knockout power. But in terms of greatness of a career? He doesn't take a backseat to anyone on this list. His peak(the aforementioned dominating run at middleweight) goes up against anyone's and his longevity is not even close to being matched(though the more I think about it, Floyd might take a shot at it if he ends up losing a close decision at some point and no longer has to worry about protecting his 0.

With that in mind here is my list based on greatness at a fighter
1.floyd
2. Manny
3. Mosley
4. Hopkins
5. Jmm
6. Morales
7. Vitaly(iv never understood why the klitschko with the bad chin gets ranked higher, I know the brothers chose to allow him to keep the main belts but lets be honest if they fought big brother would beat lil brother. He's never lost other than due to injury)
8. Morales
9. Cotto(I think you are underselling him a hair rba. He was great IMO. Not high enough to be on an all time list but still a great fighter)


I'll also add if you missed Rjj you seriously need to go watch his fights from his prime. He would be first on this list from the pure greatness category if included. His best takes a backseat to absolutely no one ever.

Different people could have different criteria for ranking these guys, but if you are taking into account "most dominant during his prime," RJJ would be a distant No. 1. Mayweather is the closest, but RJJ never had issues during his prime like Floyd did with Castillo.

Fighting other greats like James Toney and Bernard Hopkins, RJJ rarely if ever lost a round, let alone a fight.

He was phenomenal. I've said before, at his best at 168, I might favor him over any 168-pounder who has ever lived. He was that dominant.


----


As for Cotto, I respect the hell out of the guy, but I look at his best wins and it is a bit underwhelming if you're putting him in the "great" category.

Who would it be? 36-year-old Mosley? Razor-thin decision over Josh Clottey? Zab Judah who had lost his previous two fights and was 4-3 in his previous 7, including a loss to Corey Spinks?

Cotto has fought the best guys in the world in the last five years or so and he has almost always given a good showing. Problem is, he hasn't beaten another truly great fighter in or near his prime.

That would be my argument. He went from being maybe the most protected fighter in the game from 2001-07 to a guy who will fight anyone in the world, but won't beat the best.


----


I don't think there's any debate that SMM shouldn't be in the Top 4 and I almost put him ahead of Hopkins as well (that is a close call).

Anyone putting him below that paid no attention to his absolutely dominant years as a lightweight. He was the most dominant lightweight of the last decade.

It wasn't a case of him just being bigger than everyone else, either. He grew into these bigger weights. When he was 34-0 as a lightweight, he could have continued to fight in those weights, but made the jump way up in weight class to find competition after cleaning out 135.

He didn't make just any jump, either... He went from 135 to 147 and took on DeLaHoya who had really never been clearly beaten in the ring. Trinidad got the decision over him, but it was more about DLH thinking he had it won after dominating early than Tito being the clearly better man.

Shane made that huge jump, stepped in against a prime DLH and gave him his first absolutely clear loss in his career. Then, he continued beating name opponents from 147-154 for the next decade... All this after showing his greatness at lightweight.


I don't see any argument for anyone over him on Kizzle's list aside from Floyd, Pac and Hopkins.

Last edited by RedBlackAttack : 05-21-2013 at 02:02 AM.
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Old 05-21-2013, 02:51 AM   #1500
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
1. Mayweather
2. Pacquiao
3. Hopkins
4. Mosley
5. Marquez
6. Morales
7. Cotto
8. Zab
9. Klits
10. Margarito

Margarito is a flat-out cheater. He deserves no respect. His career was a sham, as far as I'm concerned.

Klits have spent their careers in an utter wasteland and I've never been overly impressed by either one.

Zab had elite talent, but never quite realized what he could have been.

Cotto is a warrior, but not quite in the "great fighter" category, imo. Very good, not great.

The rest are great fighters in a historical sense.

I love how you pointed out that Tony is a cheater and deserves no respect yet you rank the self-confessed steroid user so high.
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